The Talmud: What it is and what it isn't!

Chagos · Jun 2, 2016

calm said:
@ Chagos: You keep policing the boards .... Whatever turns your crank.

Calm

nothing to do with policing, just that when you keep abusing them, on account of that being annoying to most if not all of us I'll call you on it. Simple as that.

All of which has as little to do with what the talmud is and isn't as do your previous entries in this thread, your post #33 so far being your most ludicrous contribution.

Sherman123 · Jun 2, 2016

calm said:
So, apart from "Childrens Stories" ....

It is known that Abraham was not born as a ‘Jew’; nor was there such a thing as a ‘Jewish people’ prior to when “the Lord appeared to Abram”.

Look at Joshua 24:2 where it clearly states the following:

“Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, [even] Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.”.

The persons mentioned in this Old Testament passage were born in a pagan culture and served Mesopotamian gods.

The application of the title of "the father of a mighty multitude" to Abraham was already bestowed successively upon Adam and Noah which then correctly leads us to conclude that Abraham bears similar resemblance to Noah as Noah bore to Adam.

The singular item which distinguished Abraham from those others around him at the time was that he proclaimed that there was only one God. God did not create a new human species which He called a ‘Jew’.

No, God only introduced a new belief system; namely: “The Lord God is one” and those who followed after it became known as ‘Jews’. When Abraham declared this 'new belief', he was then called a Hebrew or a Jew. It was not his body that changed, not his DNA, just his belief system. After all, everyone is a descendent of Adam and Eve whether they be Jew or Gentile.

-----

Am I correct thus far?

Calm

If we're speaking in terms of what the Torah, Talmud, and Midrash purport then no that isn't the 'only' thing that differentiated Abraham. He was of an especial soul, one which granted him unique insight into the divine and which made him the favored of God. This is the great part of what set him and thus his descendants apart, it is central to what made his nation different from all others.

SCitizen · Jun 2, 2016

I do listen to Talmud lectures in Russian and English -- about 8 hours a week -- about thrice less then I should.

calm · Jun 3, 2016

Sherman123 said:
If we're speaking in terms of what the Torah, Talmud, and Midrash purport then no that isn't the 'only' thing that differentiated Abraham......

Okay ..... what you say is absolutely true. Abraham had a special relationship with his God.

Are you a Jewish religious scholar of sorts?

Can we have a conversation without using terms such as bigot or anti-Semite?

Calm

Sherman123 · Jun 3, 2016

calm said:
Okay ..... what you say is absolutely true. Abraham had a special relationship with his God.

Are you a Jewish religious scholar of sorts?

Can we have a conversation without using terms such as bigot or anti-Semite?

Calm

I'm Jewish and I've studied Torah. Furthermore if we're going by what the various texts purport then Abraham had much more than a special relationship with God, he had a unique soul which is the chief birthright of his descendants.

calm · Jun 3, 2016

Sherman123 said:
he had a unique soul which is the chief birthright of his descendants.

What does a "Unique Soul" mean?

Can you give me the literal quote directly from the Talmud too?

Sherman123 · Jun 3, 2016

calm said:
What does a "Unique Soul" mean?

Can you give me the literal quote directly from the Talmud too?

I'll have to track it down as its spread over many commentaries, for example the portions which deal with the recitation that Abraham was intimately familiar with the Torah despite having never received it.

And a unique soul primarily refers to a Jewish soul which according to many Jewish texts is infused with an especial spiritual energy and with an especial relationship with God. This uniqueness is what is supposed to be what separates Jews and Gentiles.

calm · Jun 3, 2016

Sherman123 said:
I'll have to track it down as its spread over many commentaries

Don't worry about me shortening your comment, I do it for brevity so as to make following the conversation easier without needing to switch between several pages.

Okay ..... If you don't mind, I would like the quote directly from the Talmud, because that is what we are discussing here.

Other references would be okay too, but I am especially interested in what is contained within the Talmud itself.

I guess I should add ....

I never read anything in the Talmud which claimed that after God breathed a soul into Adam, that God sort of then took a separate breath and then breathed a special soul into Abraham. Did Abraham not have the same soul as Adam?

I suppose I would be unable to prove you wrong because you are stating an "incident" of faith which is impossible to prove wrong, unless you give me the exact quote from the Talmud.

Thanks

Calm

Sherman123 · Jun 3, 2016

calm said:
Don't worry about me shortening your comment, I do it for brevity so as to make following the conversation easier without needing to switch between several pages.

Okay ..... If you don't mind, I would like the quote directly from the Talmud, because that is what we are discussing here.

Other references would be okay too, but I am especially interested in what is contained within the Talmud itself.

I guess I should add ....

I never read anything in the Talmud which claimed that after God breathed a soul into Adam, that God sort of then took a separate breath and then breathed a special soul into Abraham. Did Abraham not have the same soul as Adam?

I suppose I would be unable to prove you wrong because you are stating an "incident" of faith which is impossible to prove wrong, unless you give me the exact quote from the Talmud.

Thanks

Calm

There are numerous references within the Torah itself that indicate this point (the uniqueness of the Jewish people, beginning with Abraham), the Talmud and Zohar merely elaborate upon them including the unique nature of the Jewish soul. Before I list citations can you read any Hebrew?

calm · Jun 3, 2016

Sherman123 said:
Before I list citations can you read any Hebrew?

No. Can't read Hebrew. However if that is your only choice, then I will see what I can do with translation.

But, other folks are following along with us, (not necessarily today, but with Google Search in the future), and thus English would be more proper.

Are you saying that there are references in the Torah that state quite clearly that God breathed a second wind into Abraham? Obviously, Abraham was born with a soul identical to the one Adam had (that everyone had at the time), but you would claim that God found a second wind for Abraham when he was 90 years old and found God? So what happened to the first soul that Abraham was born with?

I just can't wait until you give me that quote. It would really surprise me.

Calm

SmartCat · Jun 3, 2016

Anti semites quote the Talmud to justify their hatred of Jews. I hate anti Semites, and do not care about their arguments. I want them to be exposed to those who can destroy them economically.

Sherman123 · Jun 3, 2016

calm said:
No. Can't read Hebrew. However if that is your only choice, then I will see what I can do with translation.

But, other folks are following along with us, (not necessarily today, but with Google Search in the future), and thus English would be more proper.

Are you saying that there are references in the Torah that state quite clearly that God breathed a second wind into Abraham? Obviously, Abraham was born with a soul identical to the one Adam had (that everyone had at the time), but you would claim that God found a second wind for Abraham when he was 90 years old and found God? So what happened to the first soul that Abraham was born with?

I just can't wait until you give me that quote. It would really surprise me.

Calm

I'll have to find the English Aggadah I want to give you then. No what I'm talking about isn't explicitly in the written Torah (though its obviously intimated), but the Oral Torah, Talmud, and Zohar? Certainly.

calm · Jun 4, 2016

Sherman123 said:
I'll have to find the English Aggadah

I think we are getting sort of side-tracked and delving into items which are specifically reliant upon "interpretations" rather than the content of the Talmud itself.

It would be like a Christian referencing a quote from the pope in order to argue an interpretation of the New Testament.

I would first trust my reading the New Testament itself rather than hearing from the pope.

And why is it so important for you to mention that Abraham had a special soul? Is it not "Special" enough that God spoke to him? Or are you suggesting that even though Abraham's DNA did not change when God visited him, his soul changed. Thus setting Abraham apart from other mere human beings (Gentiles) living at the time?

Somehow, that feels a bit cultish to me.

It is though you are suggesting that with a change in belief alone, God created a new race.

I understand a change in faith or belief, but not a change in the human being as you seem to suggest.

Calm

Chagos · Jun 4, 2016

SmartCat said:
Anti semites quote the Talmud to justify their hatred of Jews. I hate anti Semites, and do not care about their arguments. I want them to be exposed to those who can destroy them economically.

Oh, they do a fine job of exposing themselves and not just where this site is concerned they've mostly already done it.

No exception here.

Chagos · Jun 4, 2016

calm said:
I think we are getting sort of side-tracked and delving into items which are specifically reliant upon "interpretations" rather than the content of the Talmud itself.

Do you or don't you want the references you asked for?

If you already set out to dismiss that which you haven't even been provided with yet, there's not much point in Sherman taking the trouble to look for English examples of the Aggadah for you.

Do you even know what the Aggadah actually is and what Talmudic significance it holds?

It would be like a Christian referencing a quote from the pope in order to argue an interpretation of the New Testament.

Your analogy alone is blatant nonsense. Basically because it is an uninformed attempt to create an analogy here at all.

This is, as you appear to repeatedly need a reminder of, about what Talmud is and what not. If your main motive for participating in exchanges over this clearly defined thread topic is that of holding the Talmud or any other religious Jewish literature to be a load of bumpf, start a thread of your own on that.

I understand..........

Where it is quite apparent that you're incapable of understanding even the simplicity of what is outlined above, it is totally irrelevant of whether you understand Talmud and even more irrelevant of whether you agree with it or not.

If you want to bash it on account of its teaching being distasteful to you, do that somewhere else where the environment is more conducive to expression of the ulterior motives that actually drive you. Which we all know on account of having been displayed abundantly.

calm said:
Can we have a conversation without using terms such as bigot or anti-Semite?

if you were to stay out of it, that could become highly possible.

calm · Jun 4, 2016

Sherman123 said:
I'll have to find the English Aggadah ....

Please ignore Whoever: They patrols these forums with drive-by ridicule hourly. Whoever is just baiting me, hoping my reply will have the moderator ban me. I thought that we were having a great conversation here and yet we continually get interrupted with ridicule.

The self-appointed "Forum Policeman" asked this question ....

Whoever said: "If you already set out to dismiss that which you haven't even been provided with yet,"

My reply to Sherman 123:

I was just trying to save you some work. I sort of got the feeling that it was going to take a lot of effort for you to provide English translations of Talmud content. I don't have any problem with you posting anything at all if you feel the need to do so. I was simply attempting to clarify my intentions.

Actually, I am still waiting (since May 31) for the Forum Policeman to link me to five posts where it could be shown that whoever posted anything positive about an Arab or a Muslim.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/israe...-palestine-post1065914555.html#post1065914555

Thus it is whoever who is the anti-Semite.

Calm

Sherman123 · Jun 4, 2016

calm said:
I think we are getting sort of side-tracked and delving into items which are specifically reliant upon "interpretations" rather than the content of the Talmud itself.

It would be like a Christian referencing a quote from the pope in order to argue an interpretation of the New Testament.

I would first trust my reading the New Testament itself rather than hearing from the pope.

And why is it so important for you to mention that Abraham had a special soul? Is it not "Special" enough that God spoke to him? Or are you suggesting that even though Abraham's DNA did not change when God visited him, his soul changed. Thus setting Abraham apart from other mere human beings (Gentiles) living at the time?

Somehow, that feels a bit cultish to me.

It is though you are suggesting that with a change in belief alone, God created a new race.

I understand a change in faith or belief, but not a change in the human being as you seem to suggest.

Calm

Virtually all of the Talmud is interpretation, it's almost all a series of stories, arguments, or recitations being debated or discussed by the sages. As for the distinguishment of the 'Jewish soul' in Judaism you may very well call it cultish, after-all its a religion. I'm looking for an english translation of tractate Bava Baitra which is one that is often discussed when talking about this supposed difference and later forms an underpinning of the Tanya. But 'choseness' and the 'unique soul' are splayed all over Judaism, just look at the Aleinu.

Edit: Choseness in particular is emphasized all over the Torah and of course the Talmud.

Chagos · Jun 4, 2016

calm said:
Whoever said: "If you already set out to dismiss that which you haven't even been provided with yet,"

My reply to Sherman 123:

I was just trying to save you some work. I sort of got the feeling that it was going to take a lot of effort for you to provide English translations of Talmud content. I don't have any problem with you posting anything at all if you feel the need to do so. I was simply attempting to clarify my intentions.

That was actually not what I quoted of yours and thus provides yet another example of your prevaricating deflections. Especially in view of what you only now provide by the above being obviously not quotable at all at the time.Taking things out of context or, like here, attempting to change the latter altogether is not going to be of any much help to you, here or anywhere else.

But I especially find your comment of

I don't have any problem with you posting anything at all if you feel the need to do so.

very funny. First you ask for information and then you condescendingly allow somebody to post it on premise of his need?

As to

I was simply attempting to clarify my intentions.

there's no need for that either, most being already well acquainted with your intentions.

Actually, I am still waiting (since May 31) for the Forum Policeman to link me to five posts where it could be shown that whoever posted anything positive about an Arab or a Muslim.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/israe...-palestine-post1065914555.html#post1065914555

bringing a dead thread completely unrelated to this topic into here is a pretty pathetic move...........

Thus it is whoever who is the anti-Semite.

.................and who-or whatever has long since found definition in the sense you use.

Sooooooooo, do you still want to learn about what the Talmud is and is not? Or are you just going to stick with your own interpretation as in your #33?

Which reads

calm said:
The Talmud is actually what Christians (Those who believe in Jesus Christ) refer to as "The Old Testament".

:lamo

but also continues with such gems as

And this is why many (not all) Jewish Believers dislike Christian Theology and why many Christians are being physically abused on the streets in Bethlehem

An Israeli Rabbi said, Wednesday, that Christians are not welcome in Jerusalem, and that he does not mind burning mosques and churches.

“dishonouring Christian religious symbols is an old religious duty in Judaism.” According to Shahak, “spitting on the cross, and especially on the Crucifix, and spitting when a Jew passes a church, have been obligatory from around AD 200 for pious Jews.”

with you citing such sites as those declaring themselves to be of "intelligent 'anti-Semitism' for thinking Gentiles", the proven anti-semitic Palliwood production of IMEMC and authors who condemn "Jewishness" as "very much a supremacist, racist tendency".

In this demonstration of your habitual preference for this kind of "literature":roll: by default signifying just "whoever" is by showing what he actually is.

Not to mention, just so as to refocus, how little any of that tripe had and has to do with the thread topic here.

calm · Jun 4, 2016

Sherman123 said:
Virtually all of the Talmud is interpretation, it's almost all a series of stories, arguments, or recitations being debated or discussed by the sages.

These are From Wikipedia:

The term "Talmud" normally refers to the collection of writings named specifically the Babylonian Talmud (Talmud Bavli)

In general, Aggadah is a compendium of rabbinic texts that incorporates folklore, historical anecdotes, moral exhortations, and practical advice in various spheres, from business to medic

Aleinu - A folkloric tradition attributes this prayer to the biblical Joshua at the time of his conquest of Jerichoine.

-------------

It seems to me that it is the specific quotes from the Talmud which are somewhat "Genuine" rather than the other two examples you mentioned.

The other two use the term "Folklore" as part of the description ....

So, I would guess that the "Special Soul" is not directly spoke of (quoted) from the Talmud itself?

Also, I would like to understand the terms you are using?

You said: "Virtually all of the Talmud is interpretation"

The word "interpretation":

Do you consider the Old Testament an "interpretation" ?

Calm

calm · Jun 4, 2016

It is very irritating and makes our conversation here very difficult when a "Lawyerly Board Policeman" constantly interrupts with such lengthy quotes of what I said and what I meant to say and how maybe a Policeman would of said it differently.

It reminds of

Matthew 23:24: You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites!
You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.…

Calm

Chagos · Jun 4, 2016

calm said:
It is very irritating and makes our conversation here very difficult when a "Lawyerly Board Policeman" constantly interrupts with such lengthy quotes of what I said and what I meant to say and how maybe a Policeman would of said it differently.

It reminds of

Matthew 23:24: You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites!
You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.…You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.…

Calm

Its' "would have", not "would of".

And if you think by posts such as these you can protect yourself from being challenged, well, good luck because you seem to need it.

I'll admit that you also provide a certain amusement value though. With stuff like

You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.…

I'd have remedied that too, just got to find where I put that big fat long handled brush.

:lamo:lamo

Sherman123 · Jun 4, 2016

calm said:
These are From Wikipedia:

The term "Talmud" normally refers to the collection of writings named specifically the Babylonian Talmud (Talmud Bavli)

In general, Aggadah is a compendium of rabbinic texts that incorporates folklore, historical anecdotes, moral exhortations, and practical advice in various spheres, from business to medic

Aleinu - A folkloric tradition attributes this prayer to the biblical Joshua at the time of his conquest of Jerichoine.

-------------

It seems to me that it is the specific quotes from the Talmud which are somewhat "Genuine" rather than the other two examples you mentioned.

The other two use the term "Folklore" as part of the description ....

So, I would guess that the "Special Soul" is not directly spoke of (quoted) from the Talmud itself?

Also, I would like to understand the terms you are using?

You said: "Virtually all of the Talmud is interpretation"

The word "interpretation":

Do you consider the Old Testament an "interpretation" ?

Calm

The Torah (we don't call it the Old Testament) is obviously interpreted by those who study it. Likewise the Talmud is both a recounting of mores, lessons, and other things of importance from the Oral Torah handed down by Moses as well as a compendium of the scholarship of the sages over both the Oral and Written Torah. As for the unique quality of the Jewish soul it is explicitly discussed in the Zohar, and alluded to and discussed in the Talmud and in the Torah. There are many different types and names asserted in the Tanya and Zohar for this soul and its variants but its usually called the nefesh elokit and is inextricably linked with the 'chosen' nature of the Jewish people.

calm · Jun 4, 2016

Sherman123 said:
The Torah (we don't call it the Old Testament) is obviously interpreted by those who study it.

Well, Okay.

We will agree to disagree on whether or not Abraham had a "Special Soul" or not. My view is that everyone (every human) has the same or identical soul, but perhaps not the same belief system. And that our soul leaves our body with the exhale of our last breath.

Did God breathe a Special Soul into Abraham on the very day of the first visit with God?

So, Chosen People is "Special Soul" or did "Chosen" happen at a later time?

On another topic of sorts .....

Just a guess .... what "Percentage" (for lack of a better term) of the Talmud is "Directly" related to/referenced from the Old Testament ?

I had made an earlier statement here concerning this.

As a Christian, we believe there was first an Old Testament and with the Arrival of Jesus Christ, he sort of said to forget the Old Testament because he was ushering in a new set of understandings.

Calm

calm · Jun 4, 2016

I wanted to edit the earlier post and erase the questions I asked, but it was 20 minutes too late.

On second thought ..... It is kind of unfair for me to ask you those questions.

In every faith there are multiple schisms and to ask you to detail yours is not right.

We are talking about "Faith" and not "Facts".

I had so many other things to discuss with you, but I really should be discussing them with other Christians and not a Jewish Person because we differ so much.

The fact that both religions are so completely different is why I can not understand why Christians feel an alignment with the Jewish Folks outside of the fact that the Old Testament was written by Jewish Folks and the New Testament was written by those who believe in Jesus Christ. And it was Jesus Christ who demanded that the Old Testament be totally disregarded and tossed away.

Maybe we should just let it drop, unless you want to only discuss the differences between the Christian and Jewish Faiths.

Calm

Sherman123 · Jun 4, 2016

calm said:
Well, Okay.

We will agree to disagree on whether or not Abraham had a "Special Soul" or not. My view is that everyone (every human) has the same or identical soul, but perhaps not the same belief system. And that our soul leaves our body with the exhale of our last breath.

Did God breathe a Special Soul into Abraham on the very day of the first visit with God?

So, Chosen People is "Special Soul" or did "Chosen" happen at a later time?

On another topic of sorts .....

Just a guess .... what "Percentage" (for lack of a better term) of the Talmud is "Directly" related to/referenced from the Old Testament ?

I had made an earlier statement here concerning this.

As a Christian, we believe there was first an Old Testament and with the Arrival of Jesus Christ, he sort of said to forget the Old Testament because he was ushering in a new set of understandings.

Calm

The Talmud concerns both the Oral and the Written Torah, combined they form the Torah. So what percentage concerns the Torah? All of it.

We believe that the individual known as Jesus did not fulfill the requirements of the Moshiach to put it gently. Furthermore we believe that the covenant and the laws of the Torah are eternal.