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How much should our faith impact our lives?[W:116]

Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

Deuce said:
Well, I think this is where the disconnect tends to come up. Nobody expects an elected official to just ignore their own religious beliefs completely. But when it comes to deciding policy at any legislative level, there needs to be a filter there. Because that's a constitutional obligation. If an official's personal religious beliefs compel them to violate their oath of office, they shouldn't be holding that office. Upholding the constitution means "passing no laws respecting an establishment of religion." It means they can't push their religion onto the rest of us. An elected official shouldn't be proposing legislation that demands young-earth creationism be taught alongside evolution in a science classroom, because that's a religious belief and not a scientific one. A public school has absolutely no business pushing Hinduism or Islam or Catholocism on my child.

And that's where all of the "pushback" or "pressure" is coming from. Yes, it's hard to separate yourself from your religious beliefs. But if you can't do that, don't take on a job that requires it.

Some random guy from Idaho who believes the earth is 6000 years old? Nobody cares. When he expresses that idea, people will challenge it. They'll respond with their own beliefs. But that's just freedom of speech going in both directions.
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Generally speaking I don't disagree with anything you said, at least not entirely.


Personally, I prefer the way it was done when I was in school, the way my biology teacher in HS handled it. As close to a quote as I can manage... "I am going to teach you about evolution, because that is the prevailing theory in science about how life came to be. I know that many of you are Christians and are familiar with the arguments about Creationism versus Evolution: I am not going to address that in any way. Your religious beliefs are your own business. This, however, is a science class and I will be teaching science, not religion. You are free to believe or disbelieve whatever you wish, but you need to learn the theory of evolution in order to pass the tests regardless of what your personal or family beliefs may be. That is the first and last time I will address the religious aspect of this issue, nor will I allow class to be derailed arguing about creation vs evolution."

A couple of people wanted to press him for which he believed was correct, and he steadfastly refused to say. His answer was "The position of the school district is that as an authority figure in the eyes of the students, it is not appropriate for me to influence you one way or the other, but merely to teach the curriculum of the class."


Personally, I felt this was the appropriate way to handle a very contentious issue.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

My religious beliefs are central to my life... they shape my morals, my politics, even my aesthetics. I understand that people don't share them and I'd never dream of shoving them down someone's throat, but when it comes to secular matters, my approach is still going to be driven by my religious beliefs-- my belief in everything that is good, healthy, and beautiful.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

KevinKohler said:
YOUR faith should impact YOUR life completely...otherwise, I would have to think it's not really faith, you know?


YOUR faith should not impact MY life what so ever...not even a LITTLE. Not one tiny speck.
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I think my faith should impact your life if you are in my circle...I think my faith is a piece of every fiber and my being therefore, I would hope if you needed help you would knock at my door, if you wanted fun and laughs you would knock at my door, I hope that just being around me would feel warm and easy and positive

that would be my hope
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

_Sal said:
I think my faith should impact your life if you are in my circle...I think my faith is a piece of every fiber and my being therefore, I would hope if you needed help you would knock at my door, if you wanted fun and laughs you would knock at my door, I hope that just being around me would feel warm and easy and positive

that would be my hope
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The importance of your statement here is that you believe your faith makes you a better person and as such a more desirable person in your community. Your faith doesn't seem to require you to judge others as lacking in what makes you desirable within your faith beliefs and that, to me, is special and is what I would hope for all people of faith and for those who don't feel the same.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

CanadaJohn said:
The importance of your statement here is that you believe your faith makes you a better person and as such a more desirable person in your community. Your faith doesn't seem to require you to judge others as lacking in what makes you desirable within your faith beliefs and that, to me, is special and is what I would hope for all people of faith and for those who don't feel the same.
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thank you, I truly do believe that our faith or belief should make everything around us...better
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

Mach said:
How much should your faith affect your life? Up to you.
How much should your faith affect everyone around you? That's a question for society, not just you. (think golden rule)

To answer your question another way, in the real world, we make choices, we interact, we form relationships, we do professional work, etc. If some of your individual choices, that don't affect others directly, are made on faith, no one knows...nothing wrong with that. Even if they are, as long as you aren't being an ass about it, why would this ever be an issue? I'm an atheist and I hired a devout Christian as my second. We've gotten along famously for 7 years, we mention our faith/lack of sometimes, we sometimes mention how it shapes our actions, we're human, we talk to one another, we share stuff, we support one anther's family and careers. <-- these things are important. That you only did it because of your faith, isn't as important as the outcome IMO. I do it because I think its the right thing to do, and no book or preacher is going to tell me otherwise. Notice how this applies Islam. We are OK with Islam, until people commit atrocities citing Islam as their justification. Once again, its the OUTCOME that's important.

If you make a choice that affects others though, and you're challenged on it, if you cite your faith as the reason and refuse to discuss beyond that, it's weak. It's like saying "Well, it's just how it is!". Would you prefer the person who built your second story to take it only on faith that it's sturdy? No, you are OK with architecture (a science), and regulations (tedious but necessary) to ensure your safety. You don't take it on faith, and in general anyone challenged by you shouldn't either.

If you only prefer to live in a bubble surrounded by those of similar belief, you're missing out IMO. A little pressure is probably a good thing, otherwise you're living in a vacuum.
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What are you suggesting?
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

CrabCake said:
People who do things because of their faith are also doing it because they think it is the right thing to do. You seem to have been trying to draw a distinction that doesn't exist here.
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Ok, I've seen this before and I understand the argument. I think some folks believe that, if it wasn't for our faith and religious beliefs, we would suck as people and they're just a little bit better because they don't need no book to tell them how to be good. It's a little judgmental but no more so, IMO, than believers who think anyone without religious beliefs are not good and moral people. I think if I wasn't Christian, that my personal relations with friends, family and co-workers would largely be the same. Where my faith comes in is that I'm more likely to get involved where otherwise I probably wouldn't.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

CanadaJohn said:
Personally, I'd simply say that your own religious beliefs should impact your own personal life as much as you wish them to. Your religious beliefs, however, should not impact the personal lives of any other person, whether they hold similar beliefs or none at all. If you believe in a God that gave all his creations the free will to live as they see fit, you should honour that belief above all others and leave God, if he/she truly does exist, to determine the value of each life and the way it was lived.
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That, I believe, is the most popular POV. Be "religious" all you want, so long as nobody you're in contact with is affected by it. The problem is, it is a lot of who I am. Not sure I can just shut it all off or down just because I'm around people. Not even really sure that I should.

Hence, this thread...
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

KevinKohler said:
YOUR faith should impact YOUR life completely...otherwise, I would have to think it's not really faith, you know?


YOUR faith should not impact MY life what so ever...not even a LITTLE. Not one tiny speck.
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Hmmm, seems to me the only way to be sure of that is to never have contact with anyone who has any beliefs, religious or otherwise. I know that my faith does impact my friends in the way they treat and regard me. If you're suggesting that only people of faith should become someone other than who they are around other people but everyone else should be able to be whoever and however they want - I disagree.

Then again, you and I'll not likely ever meet so, to each their own.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

X Factor said:
That, I believe, is the most popular POV. Be "religious" all you want, so long as nobody you're in contact with is affected by it. The problem is, it is a lot of who I am. Not sure I can just shut it all off or down just because I'm around people. Not even really sure that I should.

Hence, this thread...
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Perhaps you misunderstand my comments. I'm not suggesting at all that you shut down who you are and what your faith molds you into - as I said to Sal, if a faith belief makes you a better person, of better value to the community around you, that's perfect. But unless you feel your faith role is proselytization, then your faith beliefs shouldn't be detrimental to those around you because you live only your life by your faith beliefs and values and do not require the same of others.

I know lots of people, similar to me, who were raised in a faith environment through home and schooling who've basically abandoned structured, institutional religion, but who also retain their moral compass and "training" because that shapes who they are and how they approach the world and others around them. I also know lots of people who profess profound faith and who are in church "religiously" and yet are some of the most dishonest and judgmental people on the planet - I've no time for such people "of faith".

So, being a person of faith isn't the be all and end all - it's how you live your life and the respect and care you show others, whether they be of faith, of your faith, or of no faith beliefs at all.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

X Factor said:
Oh, I'm not making any claims of not being to practice my faith. It is extremely easy to have religious faith in the U.S. so I'm not claiming any kind of oppression or anything (although I have seen it suggested that religious people not be allowed to vote). There's a bit of "pressure", it seems, to pretty much keep your beliefs to yourself and the moment you acknowledge that it does play a role or that you do base decisions on it, now you're waiving it in everyone's face or something.

It's not all external either. I have my own internal dialogue about whether I'm compromising my beliefs because it's "easier" than to stand up for some of the the more unpopular concepts.
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My actions (at optimum performance, lol) exemplify both Christian and civil, upstanding (doing the right thing) behavior. It's not like they are usually distinguishable OR need to be explained.

Again, Christian values and general secular morality and the Constitution overlap in many...even most...areas IMO.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

Henrin said:
The only way the concept of rights is not worthless is if there is a foundation that defines what they are. Once you leave it up to people to decide all on their own the concept becomes more of a problem than a solution.
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@_@ Interesting seeing you writing this, since your envisioned system of governance (and I use that term loosely), ends up sounding exactly like the bold. As is frequently pointed out.

The mainstream religions, at their foundations, have very clear, rather rigid foundations defining them.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

Goshin said:
One sort-of exception to that is that I am generally reluctant to impose my own moral codes on others by force... but paradoxically it is BECAUSE of my own religious beliefs that I am reluctant to do so! I do not believe that righteousness imposed by coercion has any great spiritual value.
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I agree and as an...THE...example for Christians, I point out that even God does not do so. He gave us free will and He gives us the choice to follow His Word or not. He does not force it on us.

I think it's the height of Christian arrogance for people to do so 'in the name of God or religion.'
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

CrabCake said:
Most atheists I know "used to be religious" as children and never transitioned into adult belief.
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IMO, not dismissing your reasons, but adding mine, I believe that alot of people raised in a religion give it up because it is alot of work. Just like any relationship, it requires alot of committment. It's easier to walk away from it than uphold your faith if you truly are not committed.

I personally recognize this, probably alot of people do. Living up to Christian values every day, in every aspect of your life, is hard. God is a forgiving God, thankfully but seriously, if it were a legal relationship I'm sure Christianity would have divorced me by now. :?

But the stronger your faith and love of God (or your religion), the easier it is to live that life, just like any other relationship.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

I actually have a great admiration for people of faith when it manifests itself in a way that inspires people to great deeds, working with the poor and assisting the disabled etc.

Where it starts to get a bit uncomfortable for me though is when it inspires ignorant laws in regards to Gay Rights or Abortion and in the case of the US, harmful effects on education, specifically those related to sexual education and evolution.

I think people should be free to express those viewpoints, I'm not talking about shutting anyone up.

But they need to be challenged, they need to be democratically, intellectually and academically defeated.

And where I live it's not a problem, we don't take religion so seriously that we have to push it into schools or up anyone's uterus.

I like the Japanese way of religion, it's beautiful, solitary and quiet, I practiced some of its ways when I was over there, you go to the temple on your time, you tend to the graves of your ancestors, you pray at the shrines, I found that quite beautiful.

But in terms of religion, if say, in my local school board evolution denialists attempted to bring that crap in, I'd be at every meeting, I would speak every time possible and I would try to get on the board myself to stop such nonsense from taking root.

When I see Evangelical Christian outreach in Uganda for example, encouraging anti-gay laws or extremist US and Canadian Christians attending conferences in Russia for "family values" and praising the laws they have passed... I don't see faith, I don't see belief, I only see hate and malice.

How Uganda was seduced by anti-gay conservative evangelicals | Africa | News | The Independent

I don't know why Christians in the US that attempt to pass theologically inspired laws, or mess with education, think they can get a pass on their ignorance because "freedom of religion", that somehow they've lost something when they can't control someone elses reproductive or marital choices.

Again I'm not talking about shutting anyone up, banning any particular viewpoint or barring anyone from practicing or voting their Conscience... But what I am saying is, if you're going to turn your religion into policy positions... You don't get a free ride, you need to be challenged, you need to prove that what you're doing is benefiting society instead of hindering it like any other law or position.

And in the case of gay rights, reproductive rights, evolution vs. creationism and sexual education vs. abstinence, what many Christians are pushing is extremely harmful and needs to be challenged and defeated.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

I have family and friends that are all over the map on how they use their religion in their daily lives. Some or moderate, while others use it as a guide rail.

What ever works. They all seem happy.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

As do my parents. They are excellent examples of Christians both in their personal and community lives. I admire them greatly.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

Jetboogieman said:
I actually have a great admiration for people of faith when it manifests itself in a way that inspires people to great deeds, working with the poor and assisting the disabled etc.

Where it starts to get a bit uncomfortable for me though is when it inspires ignorant laws in regards to Gay Rights or Abortion and in the case of the US, harmful effects on education, specifically those related to sexual education and evolution.

I think people should be free to express those viewpoints, I'm not talking about shutting anyone up.

But they need to be challenged, they need to be democratically, intellectually and academically defeated.

And where I live it's not a problem, we don't take religion so seriously that we have to push it into schools or up anyone's uterus.

I like the Japanese way of religion, it's beautiful, solitary and quiet, I practiced some of its ways when I was over there, you go to the temple on your time, you tend to the graves of your ancestors, you pray at the shrines, I found that quite beautiful.

But in terms of religion, if say, in my local school board evolution denialists attempted to bring that crap in, I'd be at every meeting, I would speak every time possible and I would try to get on the board myself to stop such nonsense from taking root.

When I see Evangelical Christian outreach in Uganda for example, encouraging anti-gay laws or extremist US and Canadian Christians attending conferences in Russia for "family values" and praising the laws they have passed... I don't see faith, I don't see belief, I only see hate and malice.

How Uganda was seduced by anti-gay conservative evangelicals | Africa | News | The Independent

I don't know why Christians in the US that attempt to pass theologically inspired laws, or mess with education, think they can get a pass on their ignorance because "freedom of religion", that somehow they've lost something when they can't control someone elses reproductive or marital choices.

Again I'm not talking about shutting anyone up, banning any particular viewpoint or barring anyone from practicing or voting their Conscience... But what I am saying is, if you're going to turn your religion into policy positions... You don't get a free ride, you need to be challenged, you need to prove that what you're doing is benefiting society instead of hindering it like any other law or position.

And in the case of gay rights, reproductive rights, evolution vs. creationism and sexual education vs. abstinence, what many Christians are pushing is extremely harmful and needs to be challenged and defeated.
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I don't think the ridicule of beliefs you advocate for is as effective as you might hope. It resonates probably pretty strongly with folks who already agree with you, but I know I'm less likely to worry about what you might think of my beliefs. Do you really give a **** what anyone thinks who bashes your beliefs just to be hateful? I doubt it. I disagree with many of my Christian brethren on a number of things, but I largely won't join in bashing or hating them. Besides, I understand taking things on faith so I have trouble condemning others for theirs.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

X Factor said:
I don't think the ridicule of beliefs you advocate for is as effective as you might hope.
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Sorry... Challenged = Ridiculed in the context I was speaking of?

Sorry but I may have made the slightest crack in another thread and at various other points, but that's overly touchy in the context of my actual post.

It resonates probably pretty strongly with folks who already agree with you, but I know I'm less likely to worry about what you might think of my beliefs.
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What you fail to understand, Is I don't actually care that much about your beliefs, nor Catholics, protestants, Lutherans, Mormons, Bhuddists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, or whatever... Taoists.

Do you really give a **** what anyone thinks who bashes your beliefs just to be hateful? I doubt it.
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I'm not sure what you're actually saying here.

I disagree with many of my Christian brethren on a number of things, but I largely won't join in bashing or hating them.
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Again I don't hate Christians, but in the public sphere, in the area of government and public policy, I will challenge them depending on what they are advocating.

And yes... Sometimes if the belief is a little too far fetched, I will poke some fun at their expense... It's you that implies that I "hate" because I suspect you think faith should be treated with a reverence that precludes ridicule because you are someone of faith.

Besides, I understand taking things on faith so I have trouble condemning others for theirs.
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Perception is everything in life, challenging Christianity in a democratic sense is not condemnation...

Again as I have said and always maintained... It's not about the actual beliefs, I could give two ****s what people actually believe, but I'm gonna start raising some eyebrows when someone starts contradicting science or what I believe to be fundamental rights of human beings, for any reason which definitely doesn't preclude religion :shrug:
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

Jetboogieman said:
Sorry... Challenged = Ridiculed in the context I was speaking of?

Sorry but I may have made the slightest crack in another thread and at various other points, but that's overly touchy in the context of my actual post.



What you fail to understand, Is I don't actually care that much about your beliefs, nor Catholics, protestants, Lutherans, Mormons, Bhuddists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, or whatever... Taoists.



I'm not sure what you're actually saying here.



Again I don't hate Christians, but in the public sphere, in the area of government and public policy, I will challenge them depending on what they are advocating.

And yes... Sometimes if the belief is a little too far fetched, I will poke some fun at their expense... It's you that implies that I "hate" because I suspect you think faith should be treated with a reverence that precludes ridicule because you are someone of faith.



Perception is everything in life, challenging Christianity in a democratic sense is not condemnation...

Again as I have said and always maintained... It's not about the actual beliefs, I could give two ****s what people actually believe, but I'm gonna start raising some eyebrows when someone starts contradicting science or what I believe to be fundamental rights of human beings, for any reason which definitely doesn't preclude religion :shrug:
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Why are you downplaying what you've advocated before? You've said certain religious beliefs themselves should be bashed and ridiculed. Why water it down now to call it "poking fun" when you've already layed out before exactly what you thought and believe. If you believe in the "mission", stand behind it. Don't be all antagonistic then claim you're not.

Incidentally, I totally invite you ridicule me all you want for my faith. Do it all day every day at your pleasure. It keeps things in a proper perspective, which is always better than to think things are one way, when they're actually not.
 
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Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

I just believe it should not impact the other people's lives
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

RetiredUSN said:
Well, it does, and will continue to do so whether we like it or not.
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if conservatives stop thinking they own GOD,it may not continue
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

X Factor said:
Why are you downplaying what you've advocated before? You've said certain religious beliefs themselves should be bashed and ridiculed. Why water it down now to call it "poking fun" when you've already layed out before exactly what you thought and believe. If you believe in the "mission", stand behind it. Don't be all antagonistic then claim you're not.
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Explain to me, in your own words, exactly what and when I said those beliefs should be bashed and ridiculed.

You are implying malice where there is none.

Incidentally, I totally invite you ridicule me all you want for my faith. Do it all day every day at your pleasure. It keeps things in a proper perspective, which is always better than to think things are one way, when they're actually not.
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I don't actually have a whole lot of interest in that on a day to day basis.
 
Re: How much should our faith impact our lives?

Medusa said:
I just believe it should not impact the other people's lives
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Really? So I shouldn't donate money or buy the homeless dude a sandwich because that might impact lives? :mrgreen:
 
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