• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Demographics and Divine Command

phattonez

phattonez

Catholic
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
30,870
Reaction score
4,246
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
The Bible has the phrase "be fruitful and multiply" 9 times. On top of that, we have constant repetition of the theme about children being such a blessing, not a burden. With these theme undeniable and obvious, we thus, in the modern world, seem to have a problem. I won't even necessarily bring up contraception. Let's just make this solely about fertility levels.

usafertility19802010.png


This graph is specific to the US, but it applies to most of Europe as well (outside of Muslim Albania). With today's technology, a fertility rate that you need to maintain a population is 2.1. We are well below that (outside of Hispanics, but those rates are crashing as well), and if not for immigration, the population would be shrinking.

Again, not making this about contraception, how can this be justified given the Biblical command? And if not, do those of us who are married have an obligation to have more babies to rectify this?
 
phattonez said:
The Bible has the phrase "be fruitful and multiply" 9 times. On top of that, we have constant repetition of the theme about children being such a blessing, not a burden. With these theme undeniable and obvious, we thus, in the modern world, seem to have a problem. I won't even necessarily bring up contraception. Let's just make this solely about fertility levels.

usafertility19802010.png


This graph is specific to the US, but it applies to most of Europe as well (outside of Muslim Albania). With today's technology, a fertility rate that you need to maintain a population is 2.1. We are well below that (outside of Hispanics, but those rates are crashing as well), and if not for immigration, the population would be shrinking.

Again, not making this about contraception, how can this be justified given the Biblical command? And if not, do those of us who are married have an obligation to have more babies to rectify this?
Click to expand...

Nah. See, this is a good thing, because people are bad, and hurt "the planet" (TM). We also need there to be less of them, so we can afford to give the number we do have on hand more entitlements and Big Government hand-outs (nevermind the fact that the realities of economics make this kind of thing infeasible with a shrinking population, and therefore a shrinking workforce and shrinking GDP).

...

Or, ya know... Thus the prevailing - satanic and ultimately self-defeating - logic of the day goes. :roll:
 
Last edited:
phattonez said:
The Bible has the phrase "be fruitful and multiply" 9 times. On top of that, we have constant repetition of the theme about children being such a blessing, not a burden. With these theme undeniable and obvious, we thus, in the modern world, seem to have a problem. I won't even necessarily bring up contraception. Let's just make this solely about fertility levels.

usafertility19802010.png


This graph is specific to the US, but it applies to most of Europe as well (outside of Muslim Albania). With today's technology, a fertility rate that you need to maintain a population is 2.1. We are well below that (outside of Hispanics, but those rates are crashing as well), and if not for immigration, the population would be shrinking.

Again, not making this about contraception, how can this be justified given the Biblical command? And if not, do those of us who are married have an obligation to have more babies to rectify this?
Click to expand...

The present global population cannot be sustained at today's technology. Probably it would be impossible even at the living standard of the poorer European countries.
So it is probably just as well that populations are beginning to fall. But it won't be easy to manage.
 
joG said:
The present global population cannot be sustained at today's technology. Probably it would be impossible even at the living standard of the poorer European countries.
So it is probably just as well that populations are beginning to fall. But it won't be easy to manage.
Click to expand...

No proof. Just conjecture.
 
phattonez said:
The Bible has the phrase "be fruitful and multiply" 9 times. On top of that, we have constant repetition of the theme about children being such a blessing, not a burden. With these theme undeniable and obvious, we thus, in the modern world, seem to have a problem. I won't even necessarily bring up contraception. Let's just make this solely about fertility levels.

usafertility19802010.png


This graph is specific to the US, but it applies to most of Europe as well (outside of Muslim Albania). With today's technology, a fertility rate that you need to maintain a population is 2.1. We are well below that (outside of Hispanics, but those rates are crashing as well), and if not for immigration, the population would be shrinking.

Again, not making this about contraception, how can this be justified given the Biblical command? And if not, do those of us who are married have an obligation to have more babies to rectify this?
Click to expand...


Absolutely and totally not. That trend should be encouraged actually. We use certain resources in our country at a much faster rate than they are renewable, such as the water in the aquifer for midwest farming). We shouldn't be worried until the population is about half of what it is now.

Then, worry about then. I would much rather see a slower reduction of population than a fast one due to .. issues.
 
RAMOSS said:
Absolutely and totally not. That trend should be encouraged actually. We use certain resources in our country at a much faster rate than they are renewable, such as the water in the aquifer for midwest farming). We shouldn't be worried until the population is about half of what it is now.

Then, worry about then. I would much rather see a slower reduction of population than a fast one due to .. issues.
Click to expand...

We also have the technology to get more water, like aqueducts, desalination plants, etc. There is no reason that we can't get more water if we really need it.
 
phattonez said:
We also have the technology to get more water, like aqueducts, desalination plants, etc. There is no reason that we can't get more water if we really need it.
Click to expand...

We have technology to get more water, but there is one. 1) energy consumption 2) the distance needed to travel, 3) The vast amount needed for irrigation.

The desalination plants might be able to mitigate the drought conditions in California, but it is not feasible to get it over the mountains.
 
phattonez said:
The Bible has the phrase "be fruitful and multiply" 9 times. On top of that, we have constant repetition of the theme about children being such a blessing, not a burden. With these theme undeniable and obvious, we thus, in the modern world, seem to have a problem. I won't even necessarily bring up contraception. Let's just make this solely about fertility levels.

usafertility19802010.png


This graph is specific to the US, but it applies to most of Europe as well (outside of Muslim Albania). With today's technology, a fertility rate that you need to maintain a population is 2.1. We are well below that (outside of Hispanics, but those rates are crashing as well), and if not for immigration, the population would be shrinking.

Again, not making this about contraception, how can this be justified given the Biblical command? And if not, do those of us who are married have an obligation to have more babies to rectify this?
Click to expand...

Why does anybody give a damn about a Biblical command by Bronze Age goatherders?
 
RAMOSS said:
We have technology to get more water, but there is one. 1) energy consumption 2) the distance needed to travel, 3) The vast amount needed for irrigation.

The desalination plants might be able to mitigate the drought conditions in California, but it is not feasible to get it over the mountains.
Click to expand...

And so if we get to that point we can do it. We're fine.
 
domer76 said:
Why does anybody give a damn about a Biblical command by Bronze Age goatherders?
Click to expand...

Because this is the religious discussion sub-forum. Why do you feel the need to come in here and contribute nothing but scorn?
 
phattonez said:
Because this is the religious discussion sub-forum. Why do you feel the need to come in here and contribute nothing but scorn?
Click to expand...


Why do feel the need to propose two such absurd questions? That kind of intellectual silliness deserves ridicule. Just because it's a religious thread doesn't absolve you from posting more adult questions.

Go forth and multiply may have been applicable to the goatherders who lost more newborns than survived. And who depended on manual labor for mere survival. The world population is over 7 billion. Overpopulation is a major problem in many areas. So, the question "how can this be justified [low birth rate] this given the Biblical command" is both childish and irresponsible.

But, multiply all you want as long as you can support your multiplication. Given diminishing resources on this planet, I believe it to be morally questionable.
 
phattonez said:
And so if we get to that point we can do it. We're fine.
Click to expand...

Can we ever get to that point? What would be the cost to the environment and to the quality of living?
 
domer76 said:
Why do feel the need to propose two such absurd questions? That kind of intellectual silliness deserves ridicule. Just because it's a religious thread doesn't absolve you from posting more adult questions.

Go forth and multiply may have been applicable to the goatherders who lost more newborns than survived. And who depended on manual labor for mere survival. The world population is over 7 billion. Overpopulation is a major problem in many areas. So, the question "how can this be justified [low birth rate] this given the Biblical command" is both childish and irresponsible.

But, multiply all you want as long as you can support your multiplication. Given diminishing resources on this planet, I believe it to be morally questionable.
Click to expand...

Prove it.
 
RAMOSS said:
Can we ever get to that point? What would be the cost to the environment and to the quality of living?
Click to expand...

I don't think we can get to that point. I think it's just useless speculation, from Malthus to Ehrlrich, all of these doomsday prophets have been wrong.
 
phattonez said:
Malthus died about 200 years ago. How long do we have to wait?
Click to expand...

Well, that would depend on the type and level of consumption and the rate of technological advances.
 
joG said:
Well, that would depend on the type and level of consumption and the rate of technological advances.
Click to expand...

200 years of doom and gloom and it still hasn't happened? At what point do you start questioning your assumptions?
 
domer76 said:
Still joking, right?

There's a nose on your face. Need proof it's there?
Click to expand...

Not joking. I'm still waiting for proof. If it's so obvious, then you should have no trouble giving me proof.
 
phattonez said:
Not joking. I'm still waiting for proof. If it's so obvious, then you should have no trouble giving me proof.
Click to expand...

Do you live in a cave?
 
phattonez said:
Still waiting for proof. All that you're proving to me is that you have none.
Click to expand...

The proof is a simple look at starvation and disease in the world, pally. Hard to believe one is so oblivious to that. Where is your cave?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom