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Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspective

Gathomas88 said:
Life's a bitch, and then you die.

Get used to it. :shrug:
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You said this:
Slavery also doesn't necessarily have to be terrible.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery
Slavery is a legal or economic system in which principles of property law are applied to humans allowing them to be classified as property,[1] to be owned, bought and sold accordingly, and they cannot withdraw unilaterally from the arrangement.
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Hell, I guess you're using this to excuse christians who supported slavery.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspective

David_N said:
You said this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

Hell, I guess you're using this to excuse christians who supported slavery.
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And that's simply what the world was back then. What of it? :shrug:

Slavery eventually evolved into serfdom, which later evolved into the petty wage drudgery of the modern underclasses.

The basic top/middle/bottom structure of human economic systems hasn't really changed in over 5000 years. The specific details have simply shifted around as productivity, populations, and material wealth has become more abundant.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspec

Gathomas88 said:
And that's simply what the world was back then. What of it? :shrug:

Slavery eventually evolved into serfdom, which later evolved into the petty wage drudgery of the modern underclasses.

The basic top/middle/bottom structure of human economic systems hasn't really changed in over 5000 years. The specific details have simply shifted around as productivity, populations, and material wealth has become more abundant.
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You said this:
Slavery also doesn't necessarily have to be terrible.
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Are you telling me you're ok with modern day slavery if it's "not terrible?"
After all, it's all the same, isn't it?
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspec

David_N said:
You said this:
Are you telling me you're ok with modern day slavery if it's "not terrible?"
After all, it's all the same, isn't it?
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I actually wouldn't have a problem with certain forms of contractual servitude, so long as it was voluntary and subject to certain legal oversights.

As far as traditional chattel slavery is concerned, no. I would not support it. It's simply unnecessary today.

Within the context of the ancient world, however, it was simply the way things were done.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,"

Gathomas88 said:
I actually wouldn't have a problem with certain forms of contractual servitude, so long as it was voluntary and subject to certain legal oversights.

As far as traditional chattel slavery is concerned, no. I would not support it. It's simply unnecessary today.

Within the context of the ancient world, however, it was simply the way things were done.
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So you support poor people in debt virtually enslaving themselves to the wealthy. Great!
Yeah, it was the way things were done, and christians supported it. It was like this until progressive values came about. :)
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,"

David_N said:
So you support poor people in debt virtually enslaving themselves to the wealthy. Great!
Yeah, it was the way things were done, and christians supported it. It was like this until progressive values came about. :)
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Uhhh... No. It was like this because there wasn't really any other way to do things.

The world was a harder place back then. People did what they had to do to get by.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,"

Gathomas88 said:
Uhhh... No. It was like this because there wasn't really any other way to do things.

The world was a harder place back then. People did what they had to do to get by.
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I actually wouldn't have a problem with certain forms of contractual servitude
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You honestly think people that are poor and in debt will truly be doing it voluntarily? :roll:
Yeah, it was like that until progressive thought appeared.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,"

Gathomas88 said:
Uhhh... No. It was like this because there wasn't really any other way to do things.

The world was a harder place back then. People did what they had to do to get by.
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You're statements about slavery being the norm for the time seem to be a more suitable defense of those who owned slaves not really as a justification for it as a way of life. Slavery is inherently wrong regardless of the conditions surrounding it.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,"

David_N said:
You honestly think people that are poor and in debt will truly be doing it voluntarily?
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Who said anything about debt? Not I.

In any eventuality, I think you might be surprised what a person is willing to give up for a decent enough benefits package.

Plenty of people sign up for the military, after all. In many regards, that is actually similar to slavery. We waive our freedom, individuality, and even our lives to serve our country.

Yeah, it was like that until progressive thought appeared.
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Again, "progressivism" doesn't have much to do with it.

Progressivism couldn't exist, in point of fact, without the economic base necessary to support it.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,"

opendebate said:
You're statements about slavery being the norm for the time seem to be a more suitable defense of those who owned slaves not really as a justification for it as a way of life. Slavery is inherently wrong regardless of the conditions surrounding it.
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What if the alternative is those people starving in the streets, and a society which is generally less wealthy and productive?

Things are not quite so cut and dry as you are making out.
 
Gathomas88 said:
Conclusion

In short, terrorism against abortion clinics really cannot be viewed as being justifiable in a Christian context.

Abortion is the law of our society, which Christians are morally obligated to obey if just. While that law is presently unjust, and Christians can disregard and try to change unjust laws, they must primarily do so in a manner which does not cause unnecessary societal harm and discord. Our present society has near limitless methods by which such change might be pursued.

This renders justifiable violence against Abortion providers a non-starter almost from the very start. There is no lawful authority to command or supervise this violence, and really no end game in sight for what that violence is meant to achieve. Terrorism targeted against abortion clinics is simply hateful violence and chaos for its own sake. That is explicitly against both Christ's teachings, and the traditional theology put forward by the Christian religion for the last 2000 years.
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You cannot justify it ethically/philosophically either.

Philosophically speaking, there is no Pope making religious pronouncements relevant to logical consideration. Philosophy is separate from Empirical science and from dogmatic/revelatory religion.

Philosophically speaking, infringing on another person's freedom is tyranny and that is the worst thing on this planet, the converse of freedom.

Philosophically speaking, taking a life is only justified in self defense.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,&a

Gathomas88 said:
What if the alternative is those people starving in the streets, and a society which is generally less wealthy and productive?

Things are not quite so cut and dry as you are making out.
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I think you are making it cut and dry. Why are the only alternatives slavery or starving? Do you really think that slavery was the only way to evolve a productive society?
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,&a

opendebate said:
I think you are making it cut and dry. Why are the only alternatives slavery or starving? Do you really think that slavery was the only way to evolve a productive society?
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I certainly think it was the most beneficial system for that particular era in history.

It allowed very large groups of people to come together and pool their resources towards common purpose, under centralized leadership.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,&a

Gathomas88 said:
I certainly think it was the most beneficial system for that particular era in history.
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Beneficial to whom??

It allowed very large groups of people to come together and pool their resources towards common purpose, under centralized leadership.
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This has got to be one of the most twisted statements you've every put out there, and that's saying a lot.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,&a

opendebate said:
Beneficial to whom??
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Everyone, in the long run.

This has got to be one of the most twisted statements you've every put out there, and that's saying a lot.
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How do you think civilizations are built, unicorn farts and pixie dust?
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,&a

Gathomas88 said:
Everyone, in the long run.



How do you think civilizations are built, unicorn farts and pixie dust?
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We are evaluating the quality of life for someone who is a slave not the success of the individuals or society who owns them, so this question is not relevant. You can't justify slavery or imply that they didn't have it that bad and be taken seriously or keep me concluding anything other than that you're just a naive privileged little white boy.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,&a

opendebate said:
We are evaluating the quality of life for someone who is a slave not the success of the individuals or society who owns them, so this question is not relevant. You can't justify slavery or imply that they didn't have it that bad and be taken seriously or keep me concluding anything other than that you're just a naive privileged little white boy.
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Societies are made up of collections of individuals. Are they not?

The better a society as a whole does, the better the individuals within it do.

Rome was built by slaves. Greece was built by slaves. Basically every empire in the ancient world was built by slaves.

Those empires spread outwards, and brought with them law, order, commerce, military protection, education, and the wealth and infrastructure necessary to begin the process of urbanization. All of that ultimately made life better for everyone.

"Naive" is pretending like none of this was necessary, from the comfort of a First World nation, thousands of years after the fact.
 
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Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,&a

Gathomas88 said:
Societies are made up of collections of individuals. Are they not?

The better a society as a whole does, the better the individuals within it do.

Rome was built by slaves. Greece was built by slaves. Basically every empire in the ancient world was built by slaves.

Those empires brought with them law, order, commerce, education, and the wealth and infrastructure necessary to begin the process of urbanization. That ultimately made life better for everyone.

"Naive" is pretending like none of this was necessary, from the comfort of a First World nation, thousands of years after the fact.
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Jesus, I bet you think you're QUITE the clever cloggs historian with opinions like these.
 
Gathomas88 said:
Are you denying it's true? :shrug:
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I think you're simplifying the issue to extent that it's very presumptuous of you to think that slavery was the be-all end-all building block that made these civilizations.

Slavery was an ASPECT to these civilizations, but they were not a be-all end-all puzzle piece that completed and built them.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, &quot

Gathomas88 said:
Societies are made up of collections of individuals. Are they not?

The better a society as a whole does, the better the individuals within it do.

Rome was built by slaves. Greece was built by slaves. Basically every empire in the ancient world was built by slaves.

Those empires brought with them law, order, commerce, education, and the wealth and infrastructure necessary to begin the process of urbanization. That ultimately made life better for everyone.

"Naive" is pretending like none of this was necessary, from the comfort of a First World nation, thousands of years after the fact.
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First of all, define "better".

Secondly, you're mistake is assuming that because the outcome was a "success" ( a judgement I'm guessing those enslaved would challenge) that the slavery was "necessary" in order the achieve it.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspective

Jetboogieman said:
I think you're simplifying the issue to extent that it's very presumptuous of you to think that slavery was the be-all end-all building block that made these civilizations.

Slavery was an ASPECT to these civilizations, but they were not a be-all end-all puzzle piece that completed and built them.
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Again, what was the alternative? Hordes of villages full of stinky peasants living hand to mouth in the countryside?

In pre-industrial societies, Slavery provided a means of bringing large numbers of cheap laborers together to perform essential tasks. It was good for the slaves themselves, in that their master basically provided for their upkeep. It was good for the master in that it gave him a massive workforce to put towards certain tasks.

Basically every major urban center of the classical era made use of slavery. A lot of those slaves actually lived better than free citizens.

That was actually a major point of contention in the late Roman Republic.
 
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Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, &quot

opendebate said:
First of all, define "better".
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Living with aqueducts and more than enough food in your belly behind the safety of city walls, rather than like a bunch of tribal villagers in modern Afghanistan.

Secondly, you're mistake is assuming that because the outcome was a "success" ( a judgement I'm guessing those enslaved would challenge)
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Their descendants are ultimately living just as well as any of the rest of us, in a society that they themselves made possible. :shrug:

that the slavery was "necessary" in order the achieve it.
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Care to suggest an alternative method by which it could have been accomplished?
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspec

Gathomas88 said:
That is only your opinion, which is false.
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"lol you're wrong"
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, &quot

Gathomas88 said:
Living with aqueducts and more than enough food in your belly behind the safety of city walls, rather than like a bunch of tribal villagers in modern Afghanistan.



Their descendants are ultimately living just as well as any of the rest of us, in a society that they themselves made possible. :shrug:



Care to suggest an alternative method by which it could have been accomplished?
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How can you simultaneously rant about the importance of freedom (not in this thread but historically in this forum) and state that be materially comfortable is worth trading your freedom for.
 
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