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Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspective

Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspec

Paleocon said:
Umm, no, the American Revolution fails the test on account of being a rebellion specifically against a legitimate government function (taxation).
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That is only your opinion, which is false.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspec

Gathomas88 said:
Again, you're both aware that this is the Religious Subforum, right? Coming down here to simply attack religion is actually infractible.

If you want to do that, go to the Philosophy subforum.
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Don't worry I recognized that you needed to move to a forum where you are protected from actual debate. That's much more a reflection on you than you realize.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspective

Summerwind said:
So the "lawful" killing of jews had nothing to do with it and those countries now that kill certain groups of people should be honored so long as they keep it within their own borders? So killing of those that turn away from Islam in the ME is perfectly okay, even if they are jews or christians, as opposed to atheists, which I have no doubt you'd be pleased to see eliminated.
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Summerwind said:
So why didn't everyone just butt out during either of the WWars? I mean it was the law of the land, Germany and it's acquisitions, to kill jews. Why didn't all Christians across the globe just honor those laws in Germany?

You folks are cherry picking trying to make sense of myths and fables.
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None of this even makes sense. The Holocaust was pretty clearly an "unjust" law. Nazi Gemany was an "unjust" government in general, and so too were their wars of aggression.

The Allies were all legitimate authorities as well, fighting under a just cause, with the aim to do good.
What are you even talking about here?
 
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Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspec

Summerwind said:
Don't worry I recognized that you needed to move to a forum where you are protected from actual debate. That's much more a reflection on you than you realize.
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Being needlessly snotty and attempting to derail conversation with red herrings unrelated to the OP is not "actual debate."
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,"

What i do appreciate about the article though is that the Christians are actually condemning the violence against planned parenthood doctors and places.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspec

Gathomas88 said:
We're speaking primarily in the context of the "lone wolf" style terrorism which marks anti-abortion extremism here. Simply speaking, it accomplishes nothing, and there's no way it really could. It's just violence for violence's sake.

Admittedly, other forms of resistance vary in their degree of justifiability, and circumstances are commonly a bit more complicated than what I described. The principles I outlined are only really meant to serve as a "general rule," of sorts.

However, as far as "general rules" are concerned, whenever possible, resistance movements should not be undertaken without having a probable chance of success, or a viable endgame. They should also be reasonably be able to leave things better than they initially found them.

The American Revolution, for example, is a good example of this.
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That doesn't seem very convincing. It looks like you've arbitrarily drawn the line at an individual or 'lone wolf' without any real justification. Lone wolf actions can certainly yield tremendous advantage to a cause, whether it was those who risked death to lead armed raids to free slaves, to blow up train depots, or to kill officials in the machinery of oppression. But I understand we're talking specifically about abortion, so lets narrow it a bit. If we were dealing with a state that only had a solitary abortion clinic, or maybe just a few, and someone was able to blow them up, it would seem as though this would probably end up 'saving' the lives of many babies that practically wouldn't be able to be aborted. What's the moral quandary with that action? Wouldn't that individual have saved numerous lives? Would it have been right if instead of alone he had done it under the auspices of a group?
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspective

Gathomas88 said:
None of this even makes sense. The Holocaust was pretty clearly an "unjust" law. Nazi Gemany was an "unjust" government in general, and so too were their wars of aggression.

The Allies were all legitimate authorities as well, fighting under a just cause, with the aim to do good.
What are you even talking about here?
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So are Christians supposed to follow the laws of the land in which they live or not? As usual y'all waffle around depending on the circumstance and cherry pick what and when and with whom you wave both your hatred and your care.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspective

Summerwind said:
So are Christians supposed to follow the laws of the land in which they live or not? As usual y'all waffle around depending on the circumstance and cherry pick what and when and with whom you wave both your hatred and your care.
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If those laws are just, they should be followed. If they are unjust, they can be ignored, if possible.

If one is going to rise up in violence and rebellion, however, there needs to be a pretty damn serious grievance involved, no better alternative available, and you need to have both an end game in mind better than what presently exists, and a decent chance at victory. Otherwise, you're just breaking things for the Hell of it, and making things worse for everyone.

These aren't hard concepts.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspec

Gathomas88 said:
If those laws are just, they should be followed. If they are unjust, they can be ignored, if possible.

If one is going to rise up in violence and rebellion, however, there needs to be a pretty damn serious grievance involved, no better alternative available, and you need to have both an end game in mind better than what presently exists, and a decent chance at victory. Otherwise, you're just breaking things for the Hell of it, and making things worse for everyone.

These aren't hard concepts.
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So since forcing a woman, or a man for that matter, to be a slave to their biology is unjust, then we can ignore them.

You just defeated yourself.

Also, the Bible says it's wrong to rebel.

Proverbs 17:!1

An evil man seeks only rebellion, and a cruel messenger will be sent against him.

Isiah 1:1-32

The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth; for the Lord has spoken: “Children have I reared and brought up, but they have rebelled against me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.” Ah, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, offspring of evildoers, children who deal corruptly! They have forsaken the Lord, they have despised the Holy One of Israel, they are utterly estranged. Why will you still be struck down? Why will you continue to rebel? The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. ...
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspec

Ancient Herald said:
So since forcing a woman, or a man for that matter, to be a slave to their biology is unjust, then we can ignore them.

You just defeated yourself.

Also, the Bible says it's wrong to rebel.

Proverbs 17:!1

An evil man seeks only rebellion, and a cruel messenger will be sent against him.

Isiah 1:1-32

The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth; for the Lord has spoken: “Children have I reared and brought up, but they have rebelled against me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.” Ah, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, offspring of evildoers, children who deal corruptly! They have forsaken the Lord, they have despised the Holy One of Israel, they are utterly estranged. Why will you still be struck down? Why will you continue to rebel? The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. ...
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I'm an atheist and you can't possibly construe those passages as being prohibitions against secular rebellion.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspec

Sherman123 said:
That doesn't seem very convincing. It looks like you've arbitrarily drawn the line at an individual or 'lone wolf' without any real justification. Lone wolf actions can certainly yield tremendous advantage to a cause, whether it was those who risked death to lead armed raids to free slaves, to blow up train depots, or to kill officials in the machinery of oppression. But I understand we're talking specifically about abortion, so lets narrow it a bit. If we were dealing with a state that only had a solitary abortion clinic, or maybe just a few, and someone was able to blow them up, it would seem as though this would probably end up 'saving' the lives of many babies that practically wouldn't be able to be aborted. What's the moral quandary with that action? Wouldn't that individual have saved numerous lives? Would it have been right if instead of alone he had done it under the auspices of a group?
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That's exactly the kind of "rebellion" I'd view as being immoral, actually.

A) The kinds of acts you're talking about usually kill a lot more people than simply the guilty.

B) There are usually better ways those grievances could have been addressed.

C) They very rarely actually accomplish anything positive. They just cause disruption.

There are exceptions to that, obviously. Take the various resistance movements of WW2 who worked with the Allies against Nazi occupation, for example. However, by and large, the kinds of movements you're describing aren't that successful, or well thought out.

FARC should have left the jungle decades ago. Likewise, Marxist agitators wrecking up Paris every ten years or so like clockwork in the 19th Century only served to make everyone's lives miserable.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspec

Ancient Herald said:
So since forcing a woman, or a man for that matter, to be a slave to their biology is unjust, then we can ignore them.

You just defeated yourself.
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A) The entire concept of being a "slave to biology" is idiotic.

B) That's a rather subjective definition of "unjust" to say the least.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,"

Gathomas88 said:
That's exactly the kind of "rebellion" I'd view as being immoral, actually.

A) The kinds of acts you're talking about usually kill a lot more people than simply the guilty.

B) There are usually better ways those grievances could have been addressed.

C) They very rarely actually accomplish anything positive. They just cause disruption.

There are exceptions to that, obviously. Take the various resistance movements of WW2 who worked with the Allies against Nazi occupation, for example. However, by and large, the kinds of movements you're describing aren't that successful, or well thought out.

FARC should have left the jungle decades ago. Likewise, Marxist agitators wrecking up Paris every ten years or so like clockwork in the 19th Century only served to make everyone's lives miserable.
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Why is success the standard for whether something is just? Furthermore in the scenarios I described (both the historical and the fictional) these individuals and groups did (and would) have been able to yield a significant amount of good depending on your moral vantage point.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,"

Gathomas88 said:
A) The entire concept of being a "slave to biology" is idiotic.

B) That's a rather subjective definition of "unjust" to say the least.
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But that is what you want.

You want women to not have abortions and give birth to the child and NOT give her the choice in the matter.

That is forcing them to be a slave to their biology.

And it's entirely hypocritical too, because men must go out sow their wild oates in order to prove they're a man.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War,"

Sherman123 said:
Why is success the standard for whether something is just? Furthermore in the scenarios I described (both the historical and the fictional) these individuals and groups did (and would) have been able to yield a significant amount of good depending on your moral vantage point.
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If you're going to commit to something as potentially life changing for so many people as a war or rebellion, then it's in everyone's best interest to ensure that it has some definitive utilitarian value. Is it not?

Otherwise, you're just breaking things and making trouble for the Hell of it.

As far as the amount of "good" such organizations have actually been able to do historically is concerned, that's rather debatable. Abolitionist terrorists only managed to enflame tensions which ultimately boiled over into a war that killed roughly a million people before all was said and done. The violence and economic damage done by Communist revolutionary groups have held back progress in dozens of developing nations, while murdering thousands of their countrymen in the process.

Even where your example of bombing an abortion clinic is concerned, the odds are that they'll simply rebuild it. What's more (even assuming that you do not kill or injure anyone in the process), you'll probably just wind up discrediting your cause in the eyes of the public.

There are simply better ways to do things, by and large.

Ancient Herald said:
But that is what you want.

You want women to not have abortions and give birth to the child and NOT give her the choice in the matter.

That is forcing them to be a slave to their biology.
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You're "slave" to your biology whether you want to be or not.

I simply ask that women be responsible enough not to murder their own unborn children.

And it's entirely hypocritical too, because men must go out sow their wild oates in order to prove they're a man.
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I support no such thing.
 
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ttwtt78640 said:
Like abortion, one cannot easily defend slavery on moral grounds, yet that too was seen as a law of man best left alone by the church. The biggest fault of the bible is the inability to amend it or to correct its many moral contradictions.

What the New Testament says about slavery
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From your link:

"Neither Jesus, nor St. Paul, nor any other Biblical figure is recorded as saying anything in opposition to the institution of slavery."

That's patently false.

Here's the scriptures that busts your argument:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:37-40

That does it right there.
 
Logicman said:
From your link:

"Neither Jesus, nor St. Paul, nor any other Biblical figure is recorded as saying anything in opposition to the institution of slavery."

That's patently false.

Here's the scriptures that busts your argument:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:37-40

That does it right there.
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Yep, love your neighbor whether they happen to own slaves or not was the prevailing custom at the time. Avoid conflict and let God do the judging.
 
Logicman said:
From your link:

"Neither Jesus, nor St. Paul, nor any other Biblical figure is recorded as saying anything in opposition to the institution of slavery."

That's patently false.

Here's the scriptures that busts your argument:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:37-40

That does it right there.
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Well , what Logicaman fails to recognize is that falls under the category of vagueness, because , slaves were considered property, and not neighbors back then.

I also wonder how Logicman relates those passages to the Syrian refugee issue.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yep, love your neighbor whether they happen to own slaves or not was the prevailing custom at the time. Avoid conflict and let God do the judging.
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In fairness, slavery was simply the prevailing economic system of the day. Basically every society in the Mediterranean was built around it.

Trying to rail against the thing on an absolute basis would have been an effective non-starter.

Slavery also doesn't necessarily have to be terrible. It simply very easily lends itself to abuse and dehumanization.
 
Gathomas88 said:
It simply very easily lends itself to abuse and dehumanization.
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That's slaverys very foundation Gath, those things have to be in place BEFORE you can accept the idea that another human being is property.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspective

Jetboogieman said:
That's slaverys very foundation Gath, those things have to be in place BEFORE you can accept the idea that another human being is property.
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Eh. Not necessarily. I'm sure there were "kind" slave masters back in the day, who treated their servants with respect and compassion.

Also, you have to keep in mind the kind of world you're talking about here. Despotic monarchy was the norm, and the concept of "human rights" basically didn't exist. "Dehumanization" and "abuse," in those contexts, are kind of relative terms.

Hell! It's not like even modern society is devoid of its downtrodden underclass either. We simply have a different system for dealing with them.
 
Gathomas88 said:
In fairness, slavery was simply the prevailing economic system of the day. Basically every society in the Mediterranean was built around it.

Trying to rail against the thing on an absolute basis would have been an effective non-starter.

Slavery also doesn't necessarily have to be terrible. It simply very easily lends itself to abuse and dehumanization.
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Yep, if you wish to build a religion then it is best not to try to turn that into direct competition with those that rule society or to declare the established pecking order as evil. The concept of obedience to a master, whether physically present or not, was very much like slavery - expect no earthly rewards but do God's will, as we explain it to be, and you will be justly rewarded in the hereafter.
 
Re: Why Bombing Abortion Clinics is Wrong - A Catholic, "Just War," Perspec

Gathomas88 said:
Hell! It's not like even modern society is devoid of its downtrodden underclass either. We simply have a different system for dealing with them.
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Yep.

It's called NASCAR.
 
Gathomas88 said:
In fairness, slavery was simply the prevailing economic system of the day. Basically every society in the Mediterranean was built around it.

Trying to rail against the thing on an absolute basis would have been an effective non-starter.

Slavery also doesn't necessarily have to be terrible. It simply very easily lends itself to abuse and dehumanization.
Click to expand...

Slavery also doesn't necessarily have to be terrible.
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No words.
 
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