Forgiveness

I don't really get forgiveness.

I've been told that forgiveness is more about freeing yourself from the hurt and the pain that someone caused you than actually forgiving them.

Because you see, i have a friend who has been hurting over the way another friend has treated her for nearly ten year.s Essentially put, he emotionally abused her and shamed and smeared her every chance he got (btw this is NOT me), and no matter how much reason and logic she used, no matter how much begging and pleading with him to stop it, well, him being an alpha male just could not understand how he was hurting her.

Eventually she broke off the friendship when she realized that was right about him. he will never understand, and being an alpha male, will always hurt you because he thinks he is doing nothing wrong.

Ten years later, she still fees the hurt he made her feel, and he still talks smack about her behind her back.

She's forgiven him, but the pain doesn't go away and he will never change.

So this has left me confused about forgiveness. What good is it if it never really heals the pain?

Ancient Herald said:

I don't really get forgiveness.

I've been told that forgiveness is more about freeing yourself from the hurt and the pain that someone caused you than actually forgiving them.

Because you see, i have a friend who has been hurting over the way another friend has treated her for nearly ten year.s Essentially put, he emotionally abused her and shamed and smeared her every chance he got (btw this is NOT me), and no matter how much reason and logic she used, no matter how much begging and pleading with him to stop it, well, him being an alpha male just could not understand how he was hurting her.

Eventually she broke off the friendship when she realized that was right about him. he will never understand, and being an alpha male, will always hurt you because he thinks he is doing nothing wrong.

Ten years later, she still fees the hurt he made her feel, and he still talks smack about her behind her back.

She's forgiven him, but the pain doesn't go away and he will never change.

So this has left me confused about forgiveness. What good is it if it never really heals the pain?

Click to expand...

This is what you call a slow learner in a codependent relationship -- they needed each other for different reasons.

It results in low self esteem.

These issues are all psychological.

To recover, forgetting the past is what will need to be done.

After sufficient forgetting and time passing, the forgiveness part eventually takes care of itself.

It takes a toll to remain at a high level of hate and wanting revenge. It consumes you and you don't get any better.

Forgetting the past and starting over are the best things.

If your friend is still thinking about all this then tell her she needs to forget about it and then it will all go away and recede into the past.

If you're thinking daily or nearly so a decade later about whatever happened, you haven't moved on at all.

In 2002 I was betrayed by a very close friend, and this remains one of the greatest shocks of my life. I just shake my head now, but I was devastated at the time and sought pastoral counseling. I was advised, every time I thought of this unbelievable betrayal, to immediately pray, "Heal ME!"

Think about it--whether you call it "prayer" or simply positive thinking, even just substituting an affirmation can help you, in time, to move through and beyond that pain. But it doesn't just happen; you have to help yourself.

nota bene said:

If you're thinking daily or nearly so a decade later about whatever happened, you haven't moved on at all.

In 2002 I was betrayed by a very close friend, and this remains one of the greatest shocks of my life. I just shake my head now, but I was devastated at the time and sought pastoral counseling. I was advised, every time I thought of this unbelievable betrayal, to immediately pray, "Heal ME!"

Think about it--whether you call it "prayer" or simply positive thinking, even just substituting an affirmation can help you, in time, to move through and beyond that pain. But it doesn't just happen; you have to help yourself.

Click to expand...

Excellent post Nota! The risk of not moving on is a root of bitterness that can devour and destroy a life.

vesper said:

Excellent post Nota! The risk of not moving on is a root of bitterness that can devour and destroy a life.

Click to expand...

It very often does (without having the slightest impact on the circumstances or others).

Ancient Herald said:

I don't really get forgiveness.

I've been told that forgiveness is more about freeing yourself from the hurt and the pain that someone caused you than actually forgiving them.

Because you see, i have a friend who has been hurting over the way another friend has treated her for nearly ten year.s Essentially put, he emotionally abused her and shamed and smeared her every chance he got (btw this is NOT me), and no matter how much reason and logic she used, no matter how much begging and pleading with him to stop it, well, him being an alpha male just could not understand how he was hurting her.

Eventually she broke off the friendship when she realized that was right about him. he will never understand, and being an alpha male, will always hurt you because he thinks he is doing nothing wrong.

Ten years later, she still fees the hurt he made her feel, and he still talks smack about her behind her back.

She's forgiven him, but the pain doesn't go away and he will never change.

So this has left me confused about forgiveness. What good is it if it never really heals the pain?

Click to expand...

Here's a good article on forgiveness that explains why we must forgive others, and ourselves:

The Power of Grace and Forgiveness « The Righter Report

Excerpts: "You see, there is a prisoner who is set free once we forgive our neighbor, and that prisoner is us. If we do not forgive others, we remain bound and chained in our own bitterness and resentment – we are held captive to the hatred or pain that someone else has caused us. It’s like we have given the people who have hurt us free rent to take up residence in our hearts and minds so that we can continually be reminded of that bitterness."

"Failure to forgive others imprisons us in an unpleasant memory from our past and keeps us from achieving our potential for constructive change. There will never be any escape from hatred, war, or misery unless our hearts are changed and we learn to forgive and show mercy to others. So forgiveness is a release from the prison of bitterness that people build for themselves. Man has built many prisons in his day, but this is one that he can surely do without."

And that, and God's love, helps ease the pain.

Ancient Herald said:

I don't really get forgiveness.

I've been told that forgiveness is more about freeing yourself from the hurt and the pain that someone caused you than actually forgiving them.

Because you see, i have a friend who has been hurting over the way another friend has treated her for nearly ten year.s Essentially put, he emotionally abused her and shamed and smeared her every chance he got (btw this is NOT me), and no matter how much reason and logic she used, no matter how much begging and pleading with him to stop it, well, him being an alpha male just could not understand how he was hurting her.

Eventually she broke off the friendship when she realized that was right about him. he will never understand, and being an alpha male, will always hurt you because he thinks he is doing nothing wrong.

Ten years later, she still fees the hurt he made her feel, and he still talks smack about her behind her back.

She's forgiven him, but the pain doesn't go away and he will never change.

So this has left me confused about forgiveness. What good is it if it never really heals the pain?

Click to expand...

Forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean the pain will go away. Some hurt are so deep, but you don't dwell on them.

What is heavy and corrosive is carrying the burden of anger and hate in your heart......once you sincerely forgive, all that burden is lifted.

Ancient Herald said:

I don't really get forgiveness.

I've been told that forgiveness is more about freeing yourself from the hurt and the pain that someone caused you than actually forgiving them.

Because you see, i have a friend who has been hurting over the way another friend has treated her for nearly ten year.s Essentially put, he emotionally abused her and shamed and smeared her every chance he got (btw this is NOT me), and no matter how much reason and logic she used, no matter how much begging and pleading with him to stop it, well, him being an alpha male just could not understand how he was hurting her.

Eventually she broke off the friendship when she realized that was right about him. he will never understand, and being an alpha male, will always hurt you because he thinks he is doing nothing wrong.

Ten years later, she still fees the hurt he made her feel, and he still talks smack about her behind her back.

She's forgiven him, but the pain doesn't go away and he will never change.

So this has left me confused about forgiveness. What good is it if it never really heals the pain?

Click to expand...

In what universe is a sociopathic moron who sucks at being a human being an alpha-anything? But anyway...

Hurt comes from many places. Holding hatred within yourself is only one.

Letting go of that hatred will help clear the way for healing to take place. But if the other sources of pain are not addressed, it will not make you whole by itself.

Along with dwelling on hatred, pain of betrayal can also cause traumatic patterns in our behavior that hurt us as well.

In addition to forgiving the situation, she also has to forgive herself and take care of herself -- restore her way of thinking to one that is balanced and not revolving around suffering, or fear of suffering in the future.

There are a lot of moving parts involved with how we understand ourselves and our relationships. All of them need to be healed after a hurt like that.

My first question would be, why is she even allowing herself to know what he may or may not be saying about her? Why does she still let herself care about it? I don't have any contact with people I've cut out, and I request others who know them not talk about them to me. It serves no purpose to keep yourself aware of them. All it does is hurt you. Why hurt yourself?

Ancient Herald said:

I don't really get forgiveness.

I've been told that forgiveness is more about freeing yourself from the hurt and the pain that someone caused you than actually forgiving them.

Because you see, i have a friend who has been hurting over the way another friend has treated her for nearly ten year.s Essentially put, he emotionally abused her and shamed and smeared her every chance he got (btw this is NOT me), and no matter how much reason and logic she used, no matter how much begging and pleading with him to stop it, well, him being an alpha male just could not understand how he was hurting her.

Eventually she broke off the friendship when she realized that was right about him. he will never understand, and being an alpha male, will always hurt you because he thinks he is doing nothing wrong.

Ten years later, she still fees the hurt he made her feel, and he still talks smack about her behind her back.

She's forgiven him, but the pain doesn't go away and he will never change.

So this has left me confused about forgiveness. What good is it if it never really heals the pain?

Click to expand...

Forgiveness is a crock of crap. If someone is harmful and hasn't changed in anyway, then they don't deserve forgiveness. Instead if she wants peace, she needs to have him out of her head, even if that means leaving friends who insist on bringing him up and repeating his bs. If those "friends" aren't basically shunning him for his behavior, they aren't really her friends anyway, and she needs to recognize that as well and get a better group of friends.

As for the tapes that run in one's head after this type of abuse, that's a bit harder to resolve. Basically she has to have constant internal dialogues successfully arguing with whatever it is. It can take years. If the "smear," was real, for example in my case, I get pretty regularly slammed because I'm not willing to re-employ under certain conditions when I'm unemployed. I don't hold to the idea that any job is better than no job. So when someone tries to slam me about such, which is true, I learned to recognize both to myself and to whoever was slamming me, I just don't hold money above all else. My value system is rated differently. At this point in my life I want to enjoy my work, money is not the end all for me.

Lastly, I had extremely abusive family, which understandably was way more than 10 years. I cut off all ties in 1983, but even to this day, the tapes still run. What I had to recognize that worked best for me, rather than forgiveness, was that I really like myself. I'm not your usual bird, but by golly I like myself just fine. AND, here's the helping part, I wouldn't be who I am today if I hadn't had the life experiences I did. Now do I or did I in 1983 need to allow the abuse to continue, NO! But do I need to be worked up about it and feel bad, no, not unless I don't like myself, in which case I need to work on that, not forgiveness.

The worse part about people like the man described is those tapes that will run in the head. You start to do or say something and even if he's not around, that little goes off, "why are you saying something so stupid," or whatever. She needs people around her who care enough to take the time to say truths about her... "so you're not a PhD, neither is anyone else here at this party. You're doing just fine, and you've been quite entertaining." Big hug! Without friends that really care, it takes longer, but one can do the same for oneself.

Beware of the consequences of not forgiving others. There will be Hell to pay at the Judgment. Because if your sins are not forgiven, you are lost.

Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting or being okay with what was done.

Forgiving just means moving forward and letting go of the emotion that surrounded the event.

vesper said:

Excellent post Nota! The risk of not moving on is a root of bitterness that can devour and destroy a life.

Click to expand...

:agree: Any explanation concerning the betrayal of a close friend will be their responsibility...that's why we were given a conscience, IMO. Even though it may be difficult to do, forgiving them and just moving on with your life avoids harming your soul further by dwelling on the betrayal - it's God's, or Karma's job, depending upon your belief, to handle that shock and pain for us. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," sayeth the Lord. Romans 12:19.

Ancient Herald said:

I don't really get forgiveness.

I've been told that forgiveness is more about freeing yourself from the hurt and the pain that someone caused you than actually forgiving them.

Because you see, i have a friend who has been hurting over the way another friend has treated her for nearly ten year.s Essentially put, he emotionally abused her and shamed and smeared her every chance he got (btw this is NOT me), and no matter how much reason and logic she used, no matter how much begging and pleading with him to stop it, well, him being an alpha male just could not understand how he was hurting her.

Eventually she broke off the friendship when she realized that was right about him. he will never understand, and being an alpha male, will always hurt you because he thinks he is doing nothing wrong.

Ten years later, she still fees the hurt he made her feel, and he still talks smack about her behind her back.

She's forgiven him, but the pain doesn't go away and he will never change.

So this has left me confused about forgiveness. What good is it if it never really heals the pain?

Click to expand...

Forgiving in the instance you describe is more about coming to terms with what happened and understanding that the guy was a POS. Or....maybe understanding that he was going thru hard times right then.

I am never going to really forgive someone who betrays me, but I've learned, those few times it's happened, to let it go. Betrayal is the worst and hardes to forgive...let go...whatever.

Ancient Herald said:

I don't really get forgiveness.

I've been told that forgiveness is more about freeing yourself from the hurt and the pain that someone caused you than actually forgiving them.

Because you see, i have a friend who has been hurting over the way another friend has treated her for nearly ten year.s Essentially put, he emotionally abused her and shamed and smeared her every chance he got (btw this is NOT me), and no matter how much reason and logic she used, no matter how much begging and pleading with him to stop it, well, him being an alpha male just could not understand how he was hurting her.

Eventually she broke off the friendship when she realized that was right about him. he will never understand, and being an alpha male, will always hurt you because he thinks he is doing nothing wrong.

Ten years later, she still fees the hurt he made her feel, and he still talks smack about her behind her back.

She's forgiven him, but the pain doesn't go away and he will never change.

So this has left me confused about forgiveness. What good is it if it never really heals the pain?

Click to expand...

Others have addressed this quite well, so I'll try to avoid a lengthy dissertation.


1. Being an Alpha male is about leadership capacity, not about being an utterly insensitive ass. Wrong term.

2. Forgiveness is important on many levels.


Spiritual: Who wishes to be forgiven of their own sins, should be forgiving to others.
Societal: Imagine if we all held on to our hate and hurt and insisted on revenge for every slight? Chaos.
Personal: The healing power of letting it go, much spoken of in the thread, is very real. As me how I know... and I'm not talking about slights, but about murder and betrayal of the highest order.


Nor does forgiveness mean allowing an untrustworthy person back into a trust-position with an opportunity to hurt you again... to be fully restored they must admit their wrongdoing, restore it as much as they can, and resolve to change whatever it is about their self that caused the harm in the first place. Absent that, you are not obliged to give them another chance to hurt you if there is reason to believe they will do so again.


Chiefly, I think forgiveness is characterized by the phrase "let go and let God..." Forgiveness is letting go of your hate and hurt and entitlement to revenge, and it is a process which takes time. Let it take the time it needs, but do make an ongoing effort to forgive, and to let it go.


Mostly I have found there is no need to seek revenge on the people who harm you... by their very nature, they tend to do worse to themselves than anything you could do to them anyway.

MaggieD said:

Forgiving in the instance you describe is more about coming to terms with what happened and understanding that the guy was a POS. Or....maybe understanding that he was going thru hard times right then.

I am never going to really forgive someone who betrays me, but I've learned, those few times it's happened, to let it go. Betrayal is the worst and hardes to forgive...let go...whatever.

Click to expand...

Yes it is. It is hard, and it takes time, and no you're never going to forget.


What you can do is consciously avoid dwelling on it, consciously let go of the anger and resentment and desire for revenge whenever they rear their ugly head, and continue doing so whenever your mind dredges up those old wrongs to chew on like a dry bone. BTDT, know all about it.

Logicman said:

Beware of the consequences of not forgiving others. There will be Hell to pay at the Judgment. Because if your sins are not forgiven, you are lost.

View attachment 67193383

Click to expand...

Whenever I say the "Our Father" and reach the line "And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us," I think to myself that what we really, really want, if we're completely honest, is to be forgiven a whole lot more than we've been able to forgive. :3oops:

SmokeAndMirrors said:

In what universe is a sociopathic moron who sucks at being a human being an alpha-anything? But anyway...

Hurt comes from many places. Holding hatred within yourself is only one.

Letting go of that hatred will help clear the way for healing to take place. But if the other sources of pain are not addressed, it will not make you whole by itself.

Along with dwelling on hatred, pain of betrayal can also cause traumatic patterns in our behavior that hurt us as well.

In addition to forgiving the situation, she also has to forgive herself and take care of herself -- restore her way of thinking to one that is balanced and not revolving around suffering, or fear of suffering in the future.

There are a lot of moving parts involved with how we understand ourselves and our relationships. All of them need to be healed after a hurt like that.

My first question would be, why is she even allowing herself to know what he may or may not be saying about her? Why does she still let herself care about it? I don't have any contact with people I've cut out, and I request others who know them not talk about them to me. It serves no purpose to keep yourself aware of them. All it does is hurt you. Why hurt yourself?

Click to expand...

I've encouraged her to sue for slander and defamation of character.

Plus she also suffers from low self esteem and clinical depress at th same time.

Ancient Herald said:

I've encouraged her to sue for slander and defamation of character.

Plus she also suffers from low self esteem and clinical depress at th same time.

Click to expand...

Why? What a complete waste of her time and emotional energy.

Unless this "slander and defamation" has cost her a job or something, all that will do is prolong the amount of her life she's wasted thinking about this guy. Move on and be happy.

If we sued every person we ever met who was an idiot, our entire lives would revolve around idiots. Why would you give them so much of yourself? Why not just cut them off and spend your life being happy instead?

See, this is why failing to forgive can hurt us so badly. By holding onto this crap, we just let our entire lives revolve around people who don't deserve it. It's a waste of life.

If she suffers from those things and they are sufficiently out of control that she is unable to value herself enough to protect her emotional well-being, she should seek the help of a good therapist, not allow her life to revolve around asshole.

"Holding anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die" ~ Someone not the Buddha said that.

Risky Thicket said:

"Holding anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die" ~ Someone not the Buddha said that.

Click to expand...

In my religion, Christianity, I can not expect forgiveness for my own sins until I forgive others who have sinned against me. In the Lord's Prayer when Christ was teaching how to pray it says "forgive us of our trespasses (sins) as we forgive those who trespass (sin) against us. Sometimes that is really a tall order and personally I could not have done it in my life without the healing of God.

If anyone is having a problem with forgiveness I recommend they read Corrie Ten Boom's "A hiding place". Her entire family risked their lives to keep Jews safe from the holocaust which resulted in them being interred in concentration camps. A Ravenbrueck guard, a man who had played a key role in the tragic death of her sister while they were interred later asked her forgiveness for his horrible actions, and she found that her faith gave her the power to forgive.

Forgiving as the Messiah Forgave: The Life of Corrie Ten Boom

Risky Thicket said:

"Holding anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die" ~ Someone not the Buddha said that.

Click to expand...

"Someone not the Buddha said that"
Fair notice- I'm stealing that.

SmokeAndMirrors said:

Why? What a complete waste of her time and emotional energy.

Unless this "slander and defamation" has cost her a job or something, all that will do is prolong the amount of her life she's wasted thinking about this guy. Move on and be happy.

If we sued every person we ever met who was an idiot, our entire lives would revolve around idiots. Why would you give them so much of yourself? Why not just cut them off and spend your life being happy instead?

See, this is why failing to forgive can hurt us so badly. By holding onto this crap, we just let our entire lives revolve around people who don't deserve it. It's a waste of life.

If she suffers from those things and they are sufficiently out of control that she is unable to value herself enough to protect her emotional well-being, she should seek the help of a good therapist, not allow her life to revolve around asshole.

Click to expand...

it's not right to talk smack about people, especially if they don't deserve it.

And she really doesn't deserve it.

Ancient Herald said:

it's not right to talk smack about people, especially if they don't deserve it.

And she really doesn't deserve it.

Click to expand...

So stop listening to it.

Pushing some ridiculous lawsuit (which would surely be laughed out of court) just means you have to listen to him for months.

Why?

Why not just leave and stop listening?

Why would you care enough what some idiot thinks to spend so much time obsessing over it?

SmokeAndMirrors said:

So stop listening to it.

Pushing some ridiculous lawsuit (which would surely be laughed out of court) just means you have to listen to him for months.

Why?

Why not just leave and stop listening?

Why would you care enough what some idiot thinks to spend so much time obsessing over it?

Click to expand...

It's tiresome being insulted and berated all the time.

Ancient Herald said:

It's tiresome being insulted and berated all the time.

Click to expand...

So stop listening. Walk away. This is simple.