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Christians and current events.

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ludin

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If you haven't been watching which is doubt few people have yesterdays ruling has turned thousands of years of marriage precedent on it's head.
Recently 9 people have determined that marriage is whatever people want it to be. ignoring that since the dawn of time marriage has been between a man
and a women.

This is a gospel and spiritual issue however it should be noted that the bible speaks of such events. we as Christians are to remember where our citizenships really
are at.

1. Morality cannot be legislated. IE morality does not stem from the law or man.

Judges 21:25
In those days Israel had no king; all the people did whatever seemed right in their own eyes.

This was also related by the Russian philosopher Dostoevsky,
If there is no God or if God does not exist then anything is possible. (paraphrased).

our citizenship is in heaven.
18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

the SCOTUS is not the final authority. God is the final authority

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.

These 9 people will stand before God and give an account of their deeds. Their deeds have been recorded and will be tested and they will be judged.

we cannot despair at what men may do because the bible tell us what men will do.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.


however do not forget one of Christ commandments to his disciples.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

We are commanded to love, but that does not mean we have to agree.
There is hope in Jesus Christ and no matter what people of this world do or say they are answerable to God one day just as we are.
 
The majority of religious people in this country are not fundamentalists and support equal rights.
 
Paschendale said:
The majority of religious people in this country are not fundamentalists and support equal rights.
Click to expand...

Then I have to call into question who they serve. Do they serve God and His will or do they serve their own will?
The one thing we are equal in is that for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

It is through the mercy, grace and faith in the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that we have hope an atonement for that sin.
 
ludin said:
Then I have to call into question who they serve. Do they serve God and His will or do they serve their own will?
Click to expand...

Many people of good conscience have profound disagreements over how best to serve God's will.
 
ludin said:
If you haven't been watching which is doubt few people have yesterdays ruling has turned thousands of years of marriage precedent on it's head.
Recently 9 people have determined that marriage is whatever people want it to be. ignoring that since the dawn of time marriage has been between a man
and a women.

This is a gospel and spiritual issue however it should be noted that the bible speaks of such events. we as Christians are to remember where our citizenships really
are at.

1. Morality cannot be legislated. IE morality does not stem from the law or man.

Judges 21:25
In those days Israel had no king; all the people did whatever seemed right in their own eyes.

This was also related by the Russian philosopher Dostoevsky,
If there is no God or if God does not exist then anything is possible. (paraphrased).

our citizenship is in heaven.
18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

the SCOTUS is not the final authority. God is the final authority

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.

These 9 people will stand before God and give an account of their deeds. Their deeds have been recorded and will be tested and they will be judged.

we cannot despair at what men may do because the bible tell us what men will do.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.


however do not forget one of Christ commandments to his disciples.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

We are commanded to love, but that does not mean we have to agree.
There is hope in Jesus Christ and no matter what people of this world do or say they are answerable to God one day just as we are.
Click to expand...




To be precise, it was 5 of the 9 black robes.


And now that it is done, there isn't really much of anything we can do about it. We stood against it, we spoke against it, we voted against it... and we lost the issue.



We did what was required of us. There's nothing more to be done.
 
ludin said:
1. Morality cannot be legislated. IE morality does not stem from the law or man.
Click to expand...

I agree, which is why the right have been wrong in trying to legislate morality.
 
I consider myself a Christian, raised in the Episcopal Church, although I don't currently belong to any congregation. However, unlike you I don't find any support in the teachings of Christ for the position you and other "Christians" like yourself have taken in regards to homosexuality and same-sex relationships....including the "sanctity" of opposite-sex marriage. In fact, I find no direct command of God in the Old Testament which supports your position either.

Let me look at two points made in your post.

ludin said:
If you haven't been watching which is doubt few people have yesterdays ruling has turned thousands of years of marriage precedent on it's head.

Recently 9 people have determined that marriage is whatever people want it to be. ignoring that since the dawn of time marriage has been between a man
and a women.
Click to expand...

I guess if you believe that the "dawn of time" was about six thousand years ago, instead of the billions science estimates for the big bang; or the 4.5 billion estimated for the formation of the earth; or the million or so years estimated as the beginning of human ancestry; we can start at your six thousand year mark.

Even using your "dawn of time" assumption, history provides numerous examples of marriages that did NOT conform to an unrelated man and woman. In the Bible there are several examples of polygamy (including Jacob, King Solomon, and King David); and close family (Isaac and Jacob married cousins and Abraham married his half-sister). Most were arranged and loveless, right up until the 17th Century. Furthermore, same sex unions were not uncommon in Europe, the Middle East, and even China for hundreds of years prior to conversion to Christianity. So it is incorrect to say marriage as defined by Christian tenets has been the established precedent for "thousands of years."

ludin said:
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

We are commanded to love, but that does not mean we have to agree.
There is hope in Jesus Christ and no matter what people of this world do or say they are answerable to God one day just as we are.
Click to expand...

Here I find some agreement. Especially in the teaching of Christ...GOD is the judge of each persons life, not YOU, nor I. His teachings are clear on this point, we have neither the capacity nor the right to judge the actions of others. Instead, we are clearly instructed to set a good example in our own lives for other's to follow if they so choose. We are NOT to impose our views on others.

Who are we to say that the love expressed between same-sex couples in an abomination in the eyes of God? Yes, you can find examples in the Old Testament where Judean lawmakers have enacted laws against it, but you can find no direct reference from GOD regarding it. Yes, you can find the opinions of Saul of Tarsis (later called Paul) in his letters, but not one word on this matter rom Jesus Christ, the Lord.

What we do find in ALL His teachings is love and acceptance, regardless of our personal prejudices. That is His command.

So, as long as you adhere to your marriage vows and honor the teachings of Christ, then the sanctity of YOUR marriage is not violated by a similar binding between a same-sex couple. It's as simple as that.
 
ludin said:
If you haven't been watching which is doubt few people have yesterdays ruling has turned thousands of years of marriage precedent on it's head.
Recently 9 people have determined that marriage is whatever people want it to be. ignoring that since the dawn of time marriage has been between a man
and a women.

This is a gospel and spiritual issue however it should be noted that the bible speaks of such events. we as Christians are to remember where our citizenships really
are at.

1. Morality cannot be legislated. IE morality does not stem from the law or man.

Judges 21:25
In those days Israel had no king; all the people did whatever seemed right in their own eyes.

This was also related by the Russian philosopher Dostoevsky,
If there is no God or if God does not exist then anything is possible. (paraphrased).

our citizenship is in heaven.
18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

the SCOTUS is not the final authority. God is the final authority

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.

These 9 people will stand before God and give an account of their deeds. Their deeds have been recorded and will be tested and they will be judged.

we cannot despair at what men may do because the bible tell us what men will do.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.


however do not forget one of Christ commandments to his disciples.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

We are commanded to love, but that does not mean we have to agree.
There is hope in Jesus Christ and no matter what people of this world do or say they are answerable to God one day just as we are.
Click to expand...

To be fair, this isn't anything that any self-respecting Christian worth their salt doesn't already know. Secular law is not synonymous with, nor even necessarily indicative of, objective "morality." It represents only the current social and institutional consensus of our society. Frankly, it sometimes doesn't even represent that. In many cases, it might only really represent the will of the political elite, forcibly imposed upon the masses against their will.

In any eventuality, just because a court rules that "marriage" can exist between two people of the same sex, does not mean that it actually can. Their partnership will be recognized as being "equal" with more natural pairings only in the eyes of law, not God.
 
Last edited:
Gathomas88 said:
To be fair, this isn't anything that any self-respecting Christian worth their salt doesn't already know. Secular law is not synonymous with, nor even necessarily indicative of, objective "morality." It represents only the current social and institutional consensus of our society. Frankly, it sometimes doesn't even represent that. In many cases, it might only really represent the will of the political elite, forcibly imposed upon the masses against their will.

In any eventuality, just because a court rules that "marriage" can exist between two people of the same sex, does not mean that it actually can. Their partnership will be recognized as being "equal" with more natural pairings only in the eyes of law, not God.
Click to expand...

I put just one segment in bold and it is all I will address and with a question
Are you certain you know the mind of your God?
 
katiegrrl0 said:
I put just one segment in bold and it is all I will address and with a question
Are you certain you know the mind of your God?
Click to expand...

No one can "certainly" know the mind of God. We can, however, know what he has revealed to us, and how those revelations have traditionally been interpreted. I'm Catholic (and a Catholic of the non-'cafeteria' variety, at that), so it's not like there's a lot of ambiguity in this particular regard where my belief system is concerned.

:shrug:

If it's any consolation, however, I don't necessarily disagree with allowing homosexual couples access to most of the same legal benefits that are allowed to heterosexual couples. I just don't think it is a spiritually valid "marriage" in the religious sense of the word.

It is simply a civil partnership.
 
Gathomas88 said:
No one can "certainly" know the mind of God. We can, however, know what he has revealed to us, and how those revelations have traditionally been interpreted. I'm Catholic (and a Catholic of the non-'cafeteria' variety, at that), so it's not like there's a lot of ambiguity in this particular regard where my belief system is concerned.

:shrug:

If it's any consolation, however, I don't necessarily disagree with allowing homosexual couples access to most of the same legal benefits that are allowed to heterosexual couples. I just don't think it is a spiritually valid "marriage" in the religious sense of the word.

It is simply a civil partnership.
Click to expand...

No, it's a marriage. Religion (which has no consensus) is not required for a valid marriage. The term 'spiritual validity' is almost oxymoronic.
 
Gathomas88 said:
No one can "certainly" know the mind of God. We can, however, know what he has revealed to us, and how those revelations have traditionally been interpreted. I'm Catholic (and a Catholic of the non-'cafeteria' variety, at that), so it's not like there's a lot of ambiguity in this particular regard where my belief system is concerned.

:shrug:

If it's any consolation, however, I don't necessarily disagree with allowing homosexual couples access to most of the same legal benefits that are allowed to heterosexual couples. I just don't think it is a spiritually valid "marriage" in the religious sense of the word.

It is simply a civil partnership.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your response. I will take another step. The churches do not agree on many issues though they use the same text pretty much. Religious people say many things when they are having extra marital affairs, practicing birth control, having abortions and so on. Yet, I am not saying you, some will point fingers and judge others relentlessly. Jesus said not to judge I have found, due to my orientation, Christians to be the most judgmental people in the world. You could call that a judgement but I do have a history to relate to. How does anyone have any idea what comes from your God or tradition or whatever? You believe but what? It looks like a pick and choose situation to me. How do certain sins get elevated to the top rung when sin is sin? How is being gay worse than having an extra marital affair?
 
Amadeus said:
No, it's a marriage. Religion (which has no consensus) is not required for a valid marriage. The term 'spiritual validity' is almost oxymoronic.
Click to expand...

The basis and recognition of true marriage flows from God, no where else.

Purely secular "marriages" are really nothing more than contractual legal partnerships, and broken about as easily.
 
Last edited:
Gathomas88 said:
The basis and recognition of true marriage flows from God, no where else.

Purely secular "marriages" are really nothing more than contractual legal partnerships, and broken about as easily.
Click to expand...

Nonsense. A 'religious' marriage is broken as easily as a secular marriage. Same process, same paperwork.
 
Amadeus said:
Nonsense. A 'religious' marriage is broken as easily as a secular marriage. Same process, same paperwork.
Click to expand...

You and Gathomas are talking about very different things. You're talking about the legal and emotional relationship, he's talking about the spiritual relationship in context of the couples' covenant with God.
 
katiegrrl0 said:
Thanks for your response. I will take another step. The churches do not agree on many issues though they use the same text pretty much. Religious people say many things when they are having extra marital affairs, practicing birth control, having abortions and so on. Yet, I am not saying you, some will point fingers and judge others relentlessly. Jesus said not to judge I have found, due to my orientation, Christians to be the most judgmental people in the world. You could call that a judgement but I do have a history to relate to. How does anyone have any idea what comes from your God or tradition or whatever? You believe but what? It looks like a pick and choose situation to me. How do certain sins get elevated to the top rung when sin is sin? How is being gay worse than having an extra marital affair?
Click to expand...

It's not. A sin is a sin. These people that are moaning and wailing about gay marriage probably went out last week and got drunk, or have had an affair, or cheated on their taxes. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Let me add: I don't consider being gay a sin, but many fundamental Christians do. Just wanted to add that.
 
katiegrrl0 said:
Thanks for your response. I will take another step. The churches do not agree on many issues though they use the same text pretty much. Religious people say many things when they are having extra marital affairs, practicing birth control, having abortions and so on. Yet, I am not saying you, some will point fingers and judge others relentlessly. Jesus said not to judge I have found, due to my orientation, Christians to be the most judgmental people in the world. You could call that a judgement but I do have a history to relate to. How does anyone have any idea what comes from your God or tradition or whatever? You believe but what? It looks like a pick and choose situation to me. How do certain sins get elevated to the top rung when sin is sin? How is being gay worse than having an extra marital affair?
Click to expand...

Who says that it is? I certainly didn't, and neither does Christianity.

Sin is sin. We all commit them, because we are all inherently sinful creatures.

Granted, some sins are worse than others - murder vs petty theft, for example. Some people also happen to have personal natures more inclined towards sinful behaviors than their peers. That is their own cross to bear.

However, I don't think there is any legitimate basis to claim that homosexuals are inherently "more sinful" than adulterers, fornicators, abortionists, or etca. Likewise, just because some Christians break the prohibitions against such sinful acts, does not make engaging in another kind of sinful act any more or less justified. There is ultimately only one set moral standard, and all acts which go against it are wrong, even if some such acts, and the intentions or motivations behind them, are wrong to different degrees than others.

While you are also correct in noting Christ did teach that one should not judge sin with hate in their heart (a concept with which, admittedly, many Christians struggle), that does not mean that one should not ultimately point sin out for what it is, and seek to correct it. Christ himself certainly did not hesitate to do so, sometimes quite forcefully.
 
I swear, so many years ago when gay couples were begging - BEGGING - for equal rights, or to even just be recognized as domestic partners, for legal purposes, wills and whatnot - had that been offered then, there's a strong possibility that this would not be happening today.

I don't blame gay people for demanding equality. They deserve it just as much as anyone else.
 
Superfly said:
It's not. A sin is a sin. These people that are moaning and wailing about gay marriage probably went out last week and got drunk, or have had an affair, or cheated on their taxes. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Let me add: I don't consider being gay a sin, but many fundamental Christians do. Just wanted to add that.
Click to expand...

I am not religious at all. I know enough to get me by. God top dog, if I believe and don't follow every word I am done for. This is how I suppose I would believe. It seems like most followers in any number of religions believe what they choose and refuse what they choose. I would see sin as sin. If i offended my god I would be screwed. Thanks on the fundamental input.
 
Gathomas88 said:
Who says that it is? I certainly didn't, and neither does Christianity.

Sin is sin. We all commit them, because we are all inherently sinful creatures.

Granted, some sins are worse than others - murder vs petty theft, for example. Some people also happen to have personal natures more inclined towards sinful behaviors than their peers. That is their own cross to bear.

However, I don't think there is any legitimate basis to claim that homosexuals are inherently "more sinful" than adulterers, fornicators, abortionists, or etca. Likewise, just because some Christians break the prohibitions against such sinful acts, does not make engaging in another kind of sinful act any more or less justified. There is ultimately only one set moral standard, and all acts which go against it are wrong, even if some such acts, and the intentions or motivations behind them, are wrong to different degrees than others.

While you are also correct in noting Christ did teach that one should not judge sin with hate in their heart (a concept with which, admittedly, many Christians struggle), that does not mean that one should not ultimately point sin out for what it is, and seek to correct it. Christ himself certainly did not hesitate to do so, sometimes quite forcefully.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the nice response. I appreciate it.
 
katiegrrl0 said:
I am not religious at all. I know enough to get me by. God top dog, if I believe and don't follow every word I am done for. This is how I suppose I would believe. It seems like most followers in any number of religions believe what they choose and refuse what they choose. I would see sin as sin. If i offended my god I would be screwed. Thanks on the fundamental input.
Click to expand...

Well just because you sin, it doesn't mean you are done for in most religions. It's why Christ died on the cross for us - so we could be forgiven. Maybe before Christ's time, yeah - it was a little hairy back then. But now, if you feel you've sinned, you can always ask for forgiveness.
 
Superfly said:
Well just because you sin, it doesn't mean you are done for in most religions. It's why Christ died on the cross for us - so we could be forgiven. Maybe before Christ's time, yeah - it was a little hairy back then. But now, if you feel you've sinned, you can always ask for forgiveness.
Click to expand...

I thank you. I am sure ou are happy in your faith and this is good. I am happy as well and it is nice we can discuss as humans this is good.
 
katiegrrl0 said:
I thank you. I am sure ou are happy in your faith and this is good. I am happy as well and it is nice we can discuss as humans this is good.
Click to expand...

I am very happy in my faith, but I don't follow a lot of the rules that others follow. I'm not the kind of person to stand up and tell someone they are wrong, or they are going to hell, or their marriage isn't valid, or anything else. That's not up to me. That's up to God. I live and let live, for the most part, and I think the world would be a lot better place if everyone did that, and stopped trying to tell others how to live. :shrug:
 
Superfly said:
I am very happy in my faith, but I don't follow a lot of the rules that others follow. I'm not the kind of person to stand up and tell someone they are wrong, or they are going to hell, or their marriage isn't valid, or anything else. That's not up to me. That's up to God. I live and let live, for the most part, and I think the world would be a lot better place if everyone did that, and stopped trying to tell others how to live. :shrug:
Click to expand...
I hear that. Might be boring but some boring might be nice.
 
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