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Christians and current events.

The problem with this argument is that how one perceives God is different than how another perceives Him. In my religion, if one were to believe that the basis and recognition of true marriage flows from God, then SSM is a true marriage, as it is acceptable in my religion on religious grounds.

That's the problem with the religious argument in this case. It is not universal. It's based on belief, something that is subjective and personal, either to the individual or to the faith. My faith decrees that same-sex marriages are fine in the eyes of The Lord on religious merits. Yours seem to say that they are not. Does this mean that one of us is wrong? No, not based on our personal belief systems. Does it mean that one of us is right? Again, not based on our personal belief systems. The problem here isn't arguing whether something like this is right or wrong. The problem is the lack of acceptance in the validity that one might believe something different. We see this all the time... the Judeo-Christian world, the Muslim world, and others. This lack of acceptance of the validity that someone could believe something different is what creates many of our problems on this and other issues.

The above was not directed at you, but it was your post that spurred the thought.



I suspect that's because you and I follow the idea that our relationship with God is individual, one on one. "God speaks to us in a manner that we will understand at the time" and in my studies it has become clear HE wants no one in between. You do not need clergy to be with God, that whole Roman set up was based on the Pagan model designed to make rich the pagan practitioners.

Seems to have worked for the Vatican
 
I consider myself a Christian, raised in the Episcopal Church, although I don't currently belong to any congregation. However, unlike you I don't find any support in the teachings of Christ for the position you and other "Christians" like yourself have taken in regards to homosexuality and same-sex relationships....including the "sanctity" of opposite-sex marriage. In fact, I find no direct command of God in the Old Testament which supports your position either.

Oh? What about these?

Matthew 19
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”


That's a sweeping condemnation of all sexual relationships outside the male/female model established in Genesis 1:27. What was stipulated in the Old Testament is also stipulated in the New Testament!



Romans 1
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.


Take note that for the first time, there is a specific mention of female homosexuality. Take note too how homosexuality is described as dishonorable and unnatural.




1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


The passage above clearly includes (among other sins/sinners), acknowledgement of former homosexuals in the church
 
Here I find some agreement. Especially in the teaching of Christ...GOD is the judge of each persons life, not YOU, nor I. His teachings are clear on this point, we have neither the capacity nor the right to judge the actions of others. Instead, we are clearly instructed to set a good example in our own lives for other's to follow if they so choose. We are NOT to impose our views on others.

You are confusing judging a person's life with a person's actions. It is not for us to judge and say who'll go to heaven and who'll perish.....but we are told to use our judgement in discerning what is right and wrong. Furthermore, we are allowed to rebuke what we deem is immoral behaviour.


2 Tim 3
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,




Who are we to say that the love expressed between same-sex couples in an abomination in the eyes of God?

God did! We're simply repeating what He said!

If we can say that murder, or adultery is wrong - we can surely say the same for homosexuality!
 
It's not. A sin is a sin. These people that are moaning and wailing about gay marriage probably went out last week and got drunk, or have had an affair, or cheated on their taxes. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Let me add: I don't consider being gay a sin, but many fundamental Christians do. Just wanted to add that.

It's not about casting stones. We're talking about actions.
 
That is an interesting point and reminds me of the vindictive pleasure so called religious folk got when denying a same sex loved one access to their ill or dying partner in hospital bed. That is the sin they need to answer for and I'm sure it won't be taken lightly.

Cite.

Who in particular denied access to a dying loved one? Or is that a sweeping judgement?
 
I agree. So many people lost precious final moments with loved ones over hatefulness. Those people will never get those moments back - those final moments with the ones they love. How many people died alone? Is there anything worse than dying alone?

That's one of the reasons I am SO GLAD that SCOTUS ruled the way they did. We can't wait around on people to do the right thing. People will never do the right thing, and THAT is wrong. We should be able to make these decisions on our own - decisions that simply make us good, decent human beings. There is nothing human, or moral, in denying a right as simple as being with a dying loved one.


How sure are you that all cases you're talking about were all religion-based? There are also non-religious people who didn't consider same-sex partnerships, natural! It wasn't the norm. A lot of cases where kins knew of the person's sexual orientation and they'd tolerated it as long as it was discreetly done.
Same as infidelity by some couples who'd had the understanding that it can be tolerated as long as they don't do it in the open.

How many deathbed scenarios were decided upon by family members? Do you know what motivated their decisions?

You have to remember that there was stigma attached to homosexuality that's why so many were in the closet! Families tended to keep it under the rug, and made certain it stays under the rug. It was a different time then which a lot of you (being young enough) couldn't possibly have experienced.

I've got a lesbian cousin from mom's side, and a gay cousin from dad's side. Everyone knows they're gay. We never saw their partners.
 
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The problem with this argument is that how one perceives God is different than how another perceives Him. In my religion, if one were to believe that the basis and recognition of true marriage flows from God, then SSM is a true marriage, as it is acceptable in my religion on religious grounds.

That's the problem with the religious argument in this case. It is not universal. It's based on belief, something that is subjective and personal, either to the individual or to the faith. My faith decrees that same-sex marriages are fine in the eyes of The Lord on religious merits. Yours seem to say that they are not. Does this mean that one of us is wrong? No, not based on our personal belief systems. Does it mean that one of us is right? Again, not based on our personal belief systems. The problem here isn't arguing whether something like this is right or wrong. The problem is the lack of acceptance in the validity that one might believe something different. We see this all the time... the Judeo-Christian world, the Muslim world, and others. This lack of acceptance of the validity that someone could believe something different is what creates many of our problems on this and other issues.

The above was not directed at you, but it was your post that spurred the thought.

That's why we've all been warned about false teachings. When in doubt, refer to the Scriptures!

The Scriptures is the blueprint! It is the manual - the guide - the compass - that we may not be misled!

If we know that the Scriptures stipulated something in such explicit terms - and in spite of that, we've still chosen to follow the preaching that goes contrary to what is stipulated by God - can we beg ignorance as an excuse?

Can we make a fool of God?
 
Do you? :lol: Kind of ironic that you are bringing me to task for "knowing more than God," when you are in here actually speaking for Him. He can speak for Himself. He doesn't need some random person on the internet to do it for Him.

We are allowed to speak about the Gospel.

In fact, Christians are COMMISSIONED to speak about the Gospel!

That's our duty!

So yes, you could say....in a way....as long as we stay true to what's in the Scriptures.....we're told to speak for Him.
 
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Oh? What about these?

Matthew 19
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”


That's a sweeping condemnation of all sexual relationships outside the male/female model established in Genesis 1:27. What was stipulated in the Old Testament is also stipulated in the New Testament!

Apparently you, like luden, also read selectively.

I never said the Bible did not have references condemning same sex relationships. I said "In fact, I find no direct command of God in the Old Testament which supports your position either."

The problem I have with fellow Christians who try to use the Bible to condemn other's for their acts here on Earth in the name of God is that they are clearly acting against the direct word of the Lord when they do so and can't seem to realize or accept this fact. That they twist the Bible to suit their own twisted viewpoints. So lets look at your quoted response in the context of my original post.

Matthew 19
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

Yes, this oft-used quotation was made by Jesus Christ; BUT the context was DIVORCE and ADULTERY, not condemnation of same-sex marriage.

"The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

As for the rest of your Biblical citations, recall I said this:
Yes, you can find examples in the Old Testament where Judean lawmakers have enacted laws against it, but you can find no direct reference from GOD regarding it. Yes, you can find the opinions of Saul of Tarsis (later called Paul) in his letters, but not one word on this matter from Jesus Christ, the Lord.

You did exactly that, quoting letters written by Paul of Tarsus, a human male instructing church members on his position about same-sex relationships. Paul was simply another man with his own opinions on the topic just like you and I.

So my original point stands, there is no direct commandment from God against same sex relationships. Just human attempts to twist the Bible to suit personal aversions and prejudices in an attempt to cast the first stone in judgment here on Earth. But remember, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is a direct quote from Jesus, and since none of us lack sin, none of us are fit to judge and condemn in the name of God.
 
Apparently you, like luden, also read selectively.

I never said the Bible did not have references condemning same sex relationships. I said "In fact, I find no direct command of God in the Old Testament which supports your position either."

The problem I have with fellow Christians who try to use the Bible to condemn other's for their acts here on Earth in the name of God is that they are clearly acting against the direct word of the Lord when they do so and can't seem to realize or accept this fact. That they twist the Bible to suit their own twisted viewpoints. So lets look at your quoted response in the context of my original post.



Yes, this oft-used quotation was made by Jesus Christ; BUT the context was DIVORCE and ADULTERY, not condemnation of same-sex marriage.

"The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

As for the rest of your Biblical citations, recall I said this:

You did exactly that, quoting letters written by Paul of Tarsus, a human male instructing church members on his position about same-sex relationships. Paul was simply another man with his own opinions on the topic just like you and I.

So my original point stands, there is no direct commandment from God against same sex relationships. Just human attempts to twist the Bible to suit personal aversions and prejudices in an attempt to cast the first stone in judgment here on Earth. But remember, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is a direct quote from Jesus, and since none of us lack sin, none of us are fit to judge and condemn in the name of God.

Matthew 19
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason
a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh?
6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”


The question may be about divorce, but the response of Jesus clearly states that marriage is a union between a male and a female.

Anything outside of that model, isn't a marriage.


Furthermore, the other verses give support since they explicitly stated that homosexual sex is unnatural and dishonorable.

How can God accept that union as a marriage when He described it as unnatural and dishonorable????

Will you please answer that!



There is more to just reading passages. You don't pick and choose. You have to ensure that nothing in the Scriptures is contradicted by your interpretation - God will never contradict Himself!

There is a harmony - a consistency - in the Scriptures, from beginning to end!



I said "In fact, I find no direct command of God in the Old Testament which supports your position either."

I have to wonder why you can't see that.
 
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Matthew 19
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’
5 and said, ‘For this reason
a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh?
6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”



The question may be about divorce, but the response of Jesus clearly states that marriage is a union between a male and a female.
Anything outside of that model, isn't a marriage.

Well that may be the interpretation that YOU and other's who choose to agree with you make of that passage, but it is not MY interpretation of the meaning of that passage. Nor is it universally accepted among Christians that it is a condemnation of same sex unions.

The basic fact is that there is no universal agreement among Christians that Jesus Christ our Lord condemns same sex couples for either their love for one another or their desire to cleave together in holy matrimony. Therefore that clearly leaves us with His commands to render unto Ceasar and love one another, and his admonishments against judgment and condemnations in the name of the Lord.

Perhaps you, and others like you who feel compelled to act here on Earth in ways that contravene the instructions of our Saviour, should really take a close and honest look at your true motivations before continuing to act out in such ways.
 
Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
Yes, you can find examples in the Old Testament where Judean lawmakers have enacted laws against it, but you can find no direct reference from GOD regarding it. Yes, you can find the opinions of Saul of Tarsis (later called Paul) in his letters, but not one word on this matter from Jesus Christ, the Lord.

There is an explanation for that in the Scriptures....but just out of curiousity....


If you don't believe the Apostles were inspired by God, and that everything is God-breathed......who do you think quoted Jesus Christ?

How did Jesus' quotes got written in the Scriptures? Kindly explain that to me.
 
Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post

but not one word on this matter from Jesus Christ, the Lord.

Now you know that there is.

Jesus explicitly explained what a marriage is: a union between a female and a male.
 
Well that may be the interpretation that YOU and other's who choose to agree with you make of that passage, but it is not MY interpretation of the meaning of that passage.

I've explained why - with supporting evidences from the Scriptures.

Nor is it universally accepted among Christians that it is a condemnation of same sex unions.

Correct me if I'm wrong. As far as I know, there was never a mention of any referendum or polls in the Scriptures. I also don't recall God asking for our input before He drafted His Constitution. :) Nor did He say that it is a democracy, either. It's more like a Dictatorship, actually. More like....this is how it is, He said - you obey!



The basic fact is that there is no universal agreement among Christians that Jesus Christ our Lord condemns same sex couples for either their love for one another or their desire to cleave together in holy matrimony.

Yes there is an explicit statement in the Scriptures how God sees homosexual act, not to mention, union.




Therefore that clearly leaves us with His commands to render unto Ceasar and love one another, and his admonishments against judgment and condemnations in the name of the Lord.

Who says anything about not loving one another?

Well....we're using what the government (Ceasar) had given us: our right to express our opinion, and to practice our religious belief!

To protest against something we believe is wrong or not right....is within the law! It is a right! We are following "Ceasar!"


In fact, it will be those who are trying to take away our Constitutional Rights - by stifling freedom of expression, among other things - who are not being respectful, to say the least.



Even Justice Kennedy had said:

The Debate Will Continue
Justice Kennedy acknowledges that people who strongly believe that marriage should be only between a man and a woman will continue to oppose same-sex marriage. That debate should continue, he writes, but the marriages must be allowed.


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...me-court-decision-same-sex-marriage.html?_r=0

So? There you go.



Perhaps you, and others like you who feel compelled to act here on Earth in ways that contravene the instructions of our Saviour, should really take a close and honest look at your true motivations before continuing to act out in such ways.

Really? You should review what I'd explained.
 

I missed any mention of religion.


Anyway....the court had decided on both cases.


Janice Langbehn Hospital Visitation Case Dismissed

A federal court in Miami threw out the case of Janice Langbehn, a lesbian denied the right to visit her dying partner in a Florida hospital, saying that no law required the hospital to admit visitors.

Langbehn, a Washington state resident, filed the suit against Jackson Memorial Hospital after Lisa Pond, her partner of 17 years, died there in 2007. Pond suffered a brain aneurysm prior to a Caribbean gay cruise with their three children, and a hospital social worker refused to let Langbehn visit her dying partner, allegedly saying that Florida was “an antigay state.”


The PFLAG National Blog: Janice Langbehn Hospital Visitation Case Dismissed




Washington nurse who barred woman from seeing her dying partner cleared of wrongdoing
April 22, 2010 | By Dan Bowman

Not even a week after President Obama mandated hospital visitation rights for gays, a nurse in King County, Wash., who kept a lesbian from seeing her dying partner in the hospital hours before the patient's death at the University of Washington Medical Center was found to have not violated any constitutional or legal rights, a jury found on Wednesday.

The nurse in this case, Karen Hulley, had been accused by Sharon Reed of barring Reed from the room of her partner, JoAnn Ritchie, on the night of Sept. 3, 2005, because of her homophobia, according to the Seattle Times. Reed was kicked out of the room six times from that night through the next day, and was not in the room when Ritchie died at 12:15 p.m. on Sept. 4.

Defense attorneys for Hulley and AMN Healthcare, the staffing agency that sent Hulley to UW Medical Center, countered that Reed "upset" Ritchie and "interfered with her care"; specifically, Hulley testified that Ritchie's heart rate would rise when Reed was in the room, and that Ritchie wanted to take her breathing mask off to talk with Reed.


http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/sto...r-dying-partner-cleared-wrongdoing/2010-04-22



What's that got to do with religion?
 
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I missed any mention of religion.


Anyway....the court had decided on both cases.


Janice Langbehn Hospital Visitation Case Dismissed

A federal court in Miami threw out the case of Janice Langbehn, a lesbian denied the right to visit her dying partner in a Florida hospital, saying that no law required the hospital to admit visitors.

Langbehn, a Washington state resident, filed the suit against Jackson Memorial Hospital after Lisa Pond, her partner of 17 years, died there in 2007. Pond suffered a brain aneurysm prior to a Caribbean gay cruise with their three children, and a hospital social worker refused to let Langbehn visit her dying partner, allegedly saying that Florida was “an antigay state.”


The PFLAG National Blog: Janice Langbehn Hospital Visitation Case Dismissed




Washington nurse who barred woman from seeing her dying partner cleared of wrongdoing
April 22, 2010 | By Dan Bowman

Not even a week after President Obama mandated hospital visitation rights for gays, a nurse in King County, Wash., who kept a lesbian from seeing her dying partner in the hospital hours before the patient's death at the University of Washington Medical Center was found to have not violated any constitutional or legal rights, a jury found on Wednesday.

The nurse in this case, Karen Hulley, had been accused by Sharon Reed of barring Reed from the room of her partner, JoAnn Ritchie, on the night of Sept. 3, 2005, because of her homophobia, according to the Seattle Times. Reed was kicked out of the room six times from that night through the next day, and was not in the room when Ritchie died at 12:15 p.m. on Sept. 4.

Defense attorneys for Hulley and AMN Healthcare, the staffing agency that sent Hulley to UW Medical Center, countered that Reed "upset" Ritchie and "interfered with her care"; specifically, Hulley testified that Ritchie's heart rate would rise when Reed was in the room, and that Ritchie wanted to take her breathing mask off to talk with Reed.


Washington nurse who barred woman from seeing her dying partner cleared of wrongdoing - FierceHealthcare



What's that got to do with religion?

So homophobia has nothing to do with religion and denying access of SS partners is fine because a Miami judge said so? Hardly..

"The hospital took the position that we thought was pretty extreme -- that it has no duty, no legal obligation, to allow visitors [of any sort] in the hospital. The court agreed,'' said Beth Littrell, a staff attorney for Lambda Legal, according to the Herald. "We're obviously devastated and disappointed in this decision," Littrell said. "It highlights how vulnerable same-sex couples and their families are."
 
How sure are you that all cases you're talking about were all religion-based?

Where did I mention religion in that post? I didn't, so stop being so hypersensitive. I think anyone that denies such a simple, basic human right to a couple in love is a deplorable human being.
 
So homophobia has nothing to do with religion and denying access of SS partners is fine because a Miami judge said so? Hardly..


Ehhh?

You don't agree with the ruling.....:lamo

Did you read, specially the last one?
 
Where did I mention religion in that post? I didn't, so stop being so hypersensitive. I think anyone that denies such a simple, basic human right to a couple in love is a deplorable human being.

We are in a thread that links Christianity with events - therefore I'm assuming what you've brought up has something to do with religion.

You should read the last case - what the nurse had explained! The nurse's priority is the well-being of the patient!
Maybe the partner even shortened the patient's life!


I surely would hate to be at the mercy of a nurse - who'd put political correctness, or self-absorbed drama queen's emotions..... before common sense!
 
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No one can "certainly" know the mind of God. We can, however, know what he has revealed to us, and how those revelations have traditionally been interpreted. I'm Catholic (and a Catholic of the non-'cafeteria' variety, at that), so it's not like there's a lot of ambiguity in this particular regard where my belief system is concerned.

:shrug:

If it's any consolation, however, I don't necessarily disagree with allowing homosexual couples access to most of the same legal benefits that are allowed to heterosexual couples. I just don't think it is a spiritually valid "marriage" in the religious sense of the word.

It is simply a civil partnership.

And , how do you know that what you think has been revealed to you is actually from God?
 
Do you now believe that there is nothing morally wrong with homosexual relationship?



Have you ever read anything I've ever written?

My beliefs are rooted in the Bible. Until someone gives me a bible-based, theologically sound reason to believe otherwise, if that ever happens, I take the Bible at its word that homosexual acts are sinful, and that therefore homosexual marriage is ungodly: marriage is a sacred bond and you can't have "sinful sacredness".

So my belief remains that yes it is a sin.


My belief however has no effect on what the law of the land is. I can disagree with it but it is still legal. It will still be done.

I can disagree with it, but the law will mandate that my gay employees SSM partner gets the same benefits as any other spouse. If I refuse to obey the law, the law will force me to comply.


What would you have of me? Shall we now become lawbreakers?

I don't think this is that "line". If told to worship any other than God by law, then I will break the law. This law does not make ME sin personally, it just stops me from acting in what the law considers a discriminatory manner towards the type of marriage that has been declared legal.

I can speak out against it all I wish, but I either obey the law or the law will force me to comply anyway.


So tell me plainly, what do you think we are to do? What course of action is left to us? Disobeying the law is a very dubious course of action... have you read Acts and Romans? We are called to peace.


Tell me, in detail, exactly what you think we're supposed to do, and what it will accomplish.
 
Jesus had said: No one goes to heaven without doing the will of my Father.

And His Father had stipulated against homosexual sex.

He also said that everyone sins, and that sin is forgiven.

Do you think it of "good" conscience to disobey God?

I am not Christian. I do not give a damn about your god.

I will point out that your own faith says that everyone sins, that everyone disobeys god, and that there is no evidence that homosexuality is a greater sin than the sins that every other Christian commits every day. You're a hypocrite, and the Bible has some harsh words about hypocrites, too.
 
He also said that everyone sins, and that sin is forgiven.



I am not Christian. I do not give a damn about your god.

I will point out that your own faith says that everyone sins, that everyone disobeys god, and that there is no evidence that homosexuality is a greater sin than the sins that every other Christian commits every day. You're a hypocrite, and the Bible has some harsh words about hypocrites, too.

Lemme 'splain, Viktyr... :D

This might be one of those "theological finer points" that you might not be aware of, being a pagan, but it is generally held in most branches of Christianity that repentance is required for forgiveness.

Repentance being an acknowledgement that the act is sinful; an expression of remorse at having done it; and an affirmation to seek to avoid repeating the offense in future.


That's kind of a problem when it relates to a lifestyle that people assert is "ok" and intend to continue practicing throughout their life.
 
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