Christians and current events.

Superfly said:

I swear, so many years ago when gay couples were begging - BEGGING - for equal rights, or to even just be recognized as domestic partners, for legal purposes, wills and whatnot - had that been offered then, there's a strong possibility that this would not be happening today.

I don't blame gay people for demanding equality. They deserve it just as much as anyone else.

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That is an interesting point and reminds me of the vindictive pleasure so called religious folk got when denying a same sex loved one access to their ill or dying partner in hospital bed. That is the sin they need to answer for and I'm sure it won't be taken lightly.

iguanaman said:

That is an interesting point and reminds me of the vindictive pleasure so called religious folk got when denying a same sex loved one access to their ill or dying partner in hospital bed. That is the sin they need to answer for and I'm sure it won't be taken lightly.

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I agree. So many people lost precious final moments with loved ones over hatefulness. Those people will never get those moments back - those final moments with the ones they love. How many people died alone? Is there anything worse than dying alone?

That's one of the reasons I am SO GLAD that SCOTUS ruled the way they did. We can't wait around on people to do the right thing. People will never do the right thing, and THAT is wrong. We should be able to make these decisions on our own - decisions that simply make us good, decent human beings. There is nothing human, or moral, in denying a right as simple as being with a dying loved one.

Korimyr the Rat said:

You and Gathomas are talking about very different things. You're talking about the legal and emotional relationship, he's talking about the spiritual relationship in context of the couples' covenant with God.

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Maybe that should be called something else other than marriage, because real marriage exists regardless of spiritual belief or religious approval.

Amadeus said:

Maybe that should be called something else other than marriage, because real marriage exists regardless of spiritual belief or religious approval.

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And he'd say that real marriage exists regardless of legal or social approval.

Korimyr the Rat said:

And he'd say that real marriage exists regardless of legal or social approval.

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The legal aspect of marriage is more binding than the spiritual aspect, even for Christians. They don't believe they need God's approval to get divorced -- which they would, if marriage had any spiritual significance.

Gathomas88 said:

The basis and recognition of true marriage flows from God, no where else.

Purely secular "marriages" are really nothing more than contractual legal partnerships, and broken about as easily.

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The problem with this argument is that how one perceives God is different than how another perceives Him. In my religion, if one were to believe that the basis and recognition of true marriage flows from God, then SSM is a true marriage, as it is acceptable in my religion on religious grounds.

That's the problem with the religious argument in this case. It is not universal. It's based on belief, something that is subjective and personal, either to the individual or to the faith. My faith decrees that same-sex marriages are fine in the eyes of The Lord on religious merits. Yours seem to say that they are not. Does this mean that one of us is wrong? No, not based on our personal belief systems. Does it mean that one of us is right? Again, not based on our personal belief systems. The problem here isn't arguing whether something like this is right or wrong. The problem is the lack of acceptance in the validity that one might believe something different. We see this all the time... the Judeo-Christian world, the Muslim world, and others. This lack of acceptance of the validity that someone could believe something different is what creates many of our problems on this and other issues.

The above was not directed at you, but it was your post that spurred the thought.

Goshin said:

To be precise, it was 5 of the 9 black robes.


And now that it is done, there isn't really much of anything we can do about it. We stood against it, we spoke against it, we voted against it... and we lost the issue.



We did what was required of us. There's nothing more to be done.

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wrong you can continue to stand up for Godly principles and Godly teaching.
God does not lose and the bible tells us what will happen on earth.

God didn't wake up and go OMG they passed gay marriage he already knew.
The bible says that He works all things together for those that love Him.

Sexual preference is something that we can bring to the light of God while at the same time
standing up for principle.

The only time we lose is when we back down on standing on the rock that is Jesus Christ.

Amadeus said:

I agree, which is why the right have been wrong in trying to legislate morality.

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again morality doesn't stem from men or laws. Upholding Godly principles and teaches is not wrong it is right.
For it is what we are called to do.

Captain Adverse said:

I consider myself a Christian, raised in the Episcopal Church, although I don't currently belong to any congregation. However, unlike you I don't find any support in the teachings of Christ for the position you and other "Christians" like yourself have taken in regards to homosexuality and same-sex relationships....including the "sanctity" of opposite-sex marriage. In fact, I find no direct command of God in the Old Testament which supports your position either.

Let me look at two points made in your post.

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Then I have to question what bible you are reading because you cannot show me 1 bible verse in the bible that says marriage is between something other than a man and a women.
if are you reading the false bible that is the new gay bible then I suggest that you get a different version.

however if you want I can show you about 100 verses or so that says marriage is between a man and a women and it starts in Genesis 2.

and Man shall leave his parents and cling to his wife (see wife not man or wives) and the two shall become one.

I guess if you believe that the "dawn of time" was about six thousand years ago, instead of the billions science estimates for the big bang; or the 4.5 billion estimated for the formation of the earth; or the million or so years estimated as the beginning of human ancestry; we can start at your six thousand year mark.

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since the big bang has pretty much been debunked at this point I wouldn't rely so much on that. also if you are believing in evolution and the big bang theory I have to question your Christianity. since neither the big bang or macro-evolution is scientifically possible you are going to have a difficult time but that is another thread on a different forum.

Even using your "dawn of time" assumption, history provides numerous examples of marriages that did NOT conform to an unrelated man and woman. In the Bible there are several examples of polygamy (including Jacob, King Solomon, and King David); and close family (Isaac and Jacob married cousins and Abraham married his half-sister). Most were arranged and loveless, right up until the 17th Century. Furthermore, same sex unions were not uncommon in Europe, the Middle East, and even China for hundreds of years prior to conversion to Christianity. So it is incorrect to say marriage as defined by Christian tenets has been the established precedent for "thousands of years."

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yes they broke the law of God and took women outside of their marriage and they were punished for it.
while there were same sex unions they were not recognized in any official capacity. Even the Romans did not recognize same sex unions in an official capacity.

so it is 100% correct to say that Marriage is between a man and a women because that is how God who if you are a Christian is the creator of all things
defined marriage to be.

Here I find some agreement. Especially in the teaching of Christ...GOD is the judge of each persons life, not YOU, nor I. His teachings are clear on this point, we have neither the capacity nor the right to judge the actions of others. Instead, we are clearly instructed to set a good example in our own lives for other's to follow if they so choose. We are NOT to impose our views on others.

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You are wrong. we are called to admonish our brethren in the Holy Spirit. we are called to hold us accountable to each other in love.
While it is Gods place to judge he also sent the holy spirit to speak the truth.

Who are we to say that the love expressed between same-sex couples in an abomination in the eyes of God? Yes, you can find examples in the Old Testament where Judean lawmakers have enacted laws against it, but you can find no direct reference from GOD regarding it. Yes, you can find the opinions of Saul of Tarsis (later called Paul) in his letters, but not one word on this matter rom Jesus Christ, the Lord.

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I just posted a whole ton of scriptures as to why. they question now is why did you ignore them?

What we do find in ALL His teachings is love and acceptance, regardless of our personal prejudices. That is His command.

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yet the bible teaches against sexual immorality such as sexual preference unions. please show me a verse where the bible supports such unions.
you can't.

So, as long as you adhere to your marriage vows and honor the teachings of Christ, then the sanctity of YOUR marriage is not violated by a similar binding between a same-sex couple. It's as simple as that.

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by our Father and Savoir Jesus Christ I am called to preach the truth of the bible. that includes defining marriage as between 1 man and 1 women.

Superfly said:

It's not. A sin is a sin. These people that are moaning and wailing about gay marriage probably went out last week and got drunk, or have had an affair, or cheated on their taxes. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Let me add: I don't consider being gay a sin, but many fundamental Christians do. Just wanted to add that.

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God considers it a sin.

For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. do you consider yourself to know more than God? if so then you set yourself up as a god,
and we know what happened to the last person that tried to do that. He was tossed out of heaven on his ear.

katiegrrl0 said:

I am not religious at all. I know enough to get me by. God top dog, if I believe and don't follow every word I am done for. This is how I suppose I would believe. It seems like most followers in any number of religions believe what they choose and refuse what they choose. I would see sin as sin. If i offended my god I would be screwed. Thanks on the fundamental input.

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before the birth death and resurrection of Christ you were screwed.

He has taken the atonement and the price of sin on himself and paid the price that we should have paid.

if we ask for forgiveness he is faithful and just to forgive us all unrighteousness

CaptainCourtesy said:

The problem with this argument is that how one perceives God is different than how another perceives Him. In my religion, if one were to believe that the basis and recognition of true marriage flows from God, then SSM is a true marriage, as it is acceptable in my religion on religious grounds.

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Since there is only one true God that must mean all the other Gods are false gods. this is your opinion and not based on anything scriptural.
I would say that you follow a false god and you own ideology that conforms to whatever YOU decide is right or wrong.

God's authority and morality is absolute.

That's the problem with the religious argument in this case. It is not universal. It's based on belief, something that is subjective and personal, either to the individual or to the faith. My faith decrees that same-sex marriages are fine in the eyes of The Lord on religious merits. Yours seem to say that they are not. Does this mean that one of us is wrong? No, not based on our personal belief systems. Does it mean that one of us is right? Again, not based on our personal belief systems. The problem here isn't arguing whether something like this is right or wrong. The problem is the lack of acceptance in the validity that one might believe something different. We see this all the time... the Judeo-Christian world, the Muslim world, and others. This lack of acceptance of the validity that someone could believe something different is what creates many of our problems on this and other issues.

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yes it means one of us is wrong. you appeal to your own authority not God's authority that is where you error.

ludin said:

wrong you can continue to stand up for Godly principles and Godly teaching.
God does not lose and the bible tells us what will happen on earth.

God didn't wake up and go OMG they passed gay marriage he already knew.
The bible says that He works all things together for those that love Him.

Sexual preference is something that we can bring to the light of God while at the same time
standing up for principle.

The only time we lose is when we back down on standing on the rock that is Jesus Christ.

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I'm not talking about changing my mind or my viewpoint on anything. My beliefs are rooted in the Bible, chiefly the New Testament. Until and unless someone presents me with a theologically sound argument for changing my view of what the relevant scriptures appear to say then my viewpoint remains the same: homosexual acts are a sin, and same-sex "marriage" is against the will of God.

However, SSM is now the law of the land, per SCOTUS decision, and changing that is vanishingly unlikely.

While we may live in a nominally Christian-majority nation, our government is largely secular and some fairly large swaths of self-labeled Christians have accepted SSM as well. The majority public opinion is in favor of SSM at this time. A reversal of this legal precedent is just not going to happen.

Whether we personally recognize SSM in our beliefs is our own concern, but we will be legally obligated to recognize the legality of the unions under the law of the land we live in, as business owners or employees or government workers. If one's business or job may require some kind of interaction with SSM on that basis (ie Clerk of Court, Justice of the Peace, wedding cake baker) then one had better consider one's conscience and perhaps change one's business or employment situation if you feel your conscience won't allow it.

"We are called to peace..." We are also called to respect the laws of the land in which we live, remember. Yes, "we ought to obey God rather than Man", but WE didn't make the law to allow this, SCOTUS did. It's done and there's probably little or nothing we can do about that other than examine our conscience on the matter and find some way to live in this society as it is, or else leave it to seek a better one elsewhere... if you think there is a better one elsewhere, which seems unlikely.


Yes, ultimately God will judge. We didn't choose this or vote for it. We stood against it, spoke against it, voted against it. We did all we could within the laws of the land, but now the law of the land is that SSM is legal, and if we live here we will have to deal with that fact. If you're a business owner, you're going to have to deal with the fact that you may have employees who are engaged in SSM, and you will have to extend benefits to their partner as you would any other spouse. That's the law and you have no choice but to obey it or get out of business. Going out of business isn't going to do you any good, or your other employees any good is it? Nor will it change anything, other than to leave you trying to find another way to make a living and putting your employees out of job.

We already deal with a lot of things in this society that are against God's will. Abortion is allowed by law, and most of us feel abortion is not God's will; no-fault divorce is not in accord with the Bible but it is the law of the land; we pay taxes to a government that funds a lot of things that God probably doesn't like, and we do so because we are not given any choice in the matter: it is the law.

Will you refuse to pay taxes because some of your tax money may end up paying for someone's abortion, or sex-change operation, or art that is offensive to Christiandom? No, you pay your taxes because it is the law of the land and if you don't they'll come MAKE you. This is going to be much the same; you either deal with it or avoid it but the law will force you to comply if you violate same.

We can still speak against it and preach against it, but the legal issue has been settled and realistically there is about zero chance of that changing, and realistically we're going to have to deal with that or else leave the country.

I don't see any other viable options.

ludin said:

before the birth death and resurrection of Christ you were screwed.

He has taken the atonement and the price of sin on himself and paid the price that we should have paid.

if we ask for forgiveness he is faithful and just to forgive us all unrighteousness

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I don't hold to those teachings. I am happy you find joy in faith and strength if true. But religion I don't follow any. It has not been my friend ever in the sense I should put much credence into it.

katiegrrl0 said:

Thanks for your response. I will take another step. The churches do not agree on many issues though they use the same text pretty much. Religious people say many things when they are having extra marital affairs, practicing birth control, having abortions and so on. Yet, I am not saying you, some will point fingers and judge others relentlessly. Jesus said not to judge I have found, due to my orientation, Christians to be the most judgmental people in the world. You could call that a judgement but I do have a history to relate to. How does anyone have any idea what comes from your God or tradition or whatever? You believe but what? It looks like a pick and choose situation to me. How do certain sins get elevated to the top rung when sin is sin? How is being gay worse than having an extra marital affair?

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It isn't. Sin is sin. However, gay is kind of top of the news feed just the now.

Goshin said:

I'm not talking about changing my mind or my viewpoint on anything. My beliefs are rooted in the Bible, chiefly the New Testament. Until and unless someone presents me with a theologically sound argument for changing my view of what the relevant scriptures appear to say then my viewpoint remains the same: homosexual acts are a sin, and same-sex "marriage" is against the will of God.

However, SSM is now the law of the land, per SCOTUS decision, and changing that is vanishingly unlikely.

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God's court is higher than the SCOTUS. they can say whatever they want I can continue in my belief and choose not to recognize what they say.

While we may live in a nominally Christian-majority nation, our government is largely secular and some fairly large swaths of self-labeled Christians have accepted SSM as well. The majority public opinion is in favor of SSM at this time. A reversal of this legal precedent is just not going to happen.

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the fact is we are not longer a Christian nation. If we were then this would have failed to pass constitutional muster as Roberts said this had nothing to do with the constitution.
it was 100% political.

Whether we personally recognize SSM in our beliefs is our own concern, but we will be legally obligated to recognize the legality of the unions under the law of the land we live in, as business owners or employees or government workers.

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it just means that states need to implement what is already enshrined in the constitution. that people have a right to religious beliefs and that they cannot be forced to participate in social events. I had thought about opening a business but given all the BS that goes into it. not worth the hassle.

"We are called to peace..." We are also called to respect the laws of the land in which we live, remember. Yes, "we ought to obey God rather than Man", but WE didn't make the law to allow this, SCOTUS did. It's done and there's probably little or nothing we can do about that other than examine our conscience on the matter and find some way to live in this society as it is, or else leave it to seek a better one elsewhere... if you think there is a better one elsewhere, which seems unlikely.

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Respect is earn not given. I live where I want that doesn't mean I have to respect or honor every decision by the SCOTUS.

Yes, ultimately God will judge. We didn't choose this or vote for it. We stood against it, spoke against it, voted against it. We did all we could within the laws of the land, but now the law of the land is that SSM is legal, and if we live here we will have to deal with that fact. If you're a business owner, you're going to have to deal with the fact that you may have employees who are engaged in SSM, and you will have to extend benefits to their partner as you would any other spouse. That's the law and you have no choice but to obey it or get out of business. Going out of business isn't going to do you any good, or your other employees any good is it? Nor will it change anything, other than to leave you trying to find another way to make a living and putting your employees out of job.

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you can do what you will. I will continue to uphold God's principles and teachings.

We already deal with a lot of things in this society that are against God's will. Abortion is allowed by law, and most of us feel abortion is not God's will; no-fault divorce is not in accord with the Bible but it is the law of the land; we pay taxes to a government that funds a lot of things that God probably doesn't like, and we do so because we are not given any choice in the matter: it is the law.

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yet I can still speak against those things.

Will you refuse to pay taxes because some of your tax money may end up paying for someone's abortion, or sex-change operation, or art that is offensive to Christiandom? No, you pay your taxes because it is the law of the land and if you don't they'll come MAKE you. This is going to be much the same; you either deal with it or avoid it but the law will force you to comply if you violate same.

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since it is illegal to fund abortion with tax payers dollars that is irrelevant. as for sex change that is already in the court system and yes elective surgeries (like abortion) should not be paid for by tax payer dollars.

We can still speak against it and preach against it, but the legal issue has been settled and realistically there is about zero chance of that changing, and realistically we're going to have to deal with that or else leave the country.

I don't see any other viable options.

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no I can continue to tell the truth that is God is the ultimate authority that marriage is between a man and a women regardless of what the SCOTUS says.

katiegrrl0 said:

I don't hold to those teachings. I am happy you find joy in faith and strength if true. But religion I don't follow any. It has not been my friend ever in the sense I should put much credence into it.

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then why exactly are you here? this is a religious thread based on biblical teachings and values?

ludin said:

God's court is higher than the SCOTUS. they can say whatever they want I can continue in my belief and choose not to recognize what they say.



the fact is we are not longer a Christian nation. If we were then this would have failed to pass constitutional muster as Roberts said this had nothing to do with the constitution.
it was 100% political.



it just means that states need to implement what is already enshrined in the constitution. that people have a right to religious beliefs and that they cannot be forced to participate in social events. I had thought about opening a business but given all the BS that goes into it. not worth the hassle.



Respect is earn not given. I live where I want that doesn't mean I have to respect or honor every decision by the SCOTUS.



you can do what you will. I will continue to uphold God's principles and teachings.



yet I can still speak against those things.



since it is illegal to fund abortion with tax payers dollars that is irrelevant. as for sex change that is already in the court system and yes elective surgeries (like abortion) should not be paid for by tax payer dollars.



no I can continue to tell the truth that is God is the ultimate authority that marriage is between a man and a women regardless of what the SCOTUS says.

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I think you kind of missed my point. Of course you can continue to tell the Biblical truth of marriage. No one said otherwise, and I endorsed that in my post, so I don't know why you are reiterating it.


Let me revisit something though...

Respect is earn not given. I live where I want that doesn't mean I have to respect or honor every decision by the SCOTUS.

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So I am free to ignore any law I don't respect? That isn't what the Bible says. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's due."


It's the law now. It doesn't matter whether I like it, it doesn't matter whether you like it, it IS the law of the land and we will have to deal with that. Those who made it so in defiance of God's law will answer to Him one day, but in the mean time it is the law of the land, and "we are called to peace".

We can't change laws until we change hearts and minds.

This one, being a SCOTUS decision, probably won't be changed period. It is what it is. We don't have to say we're okay with it, but we do have to obey the law.

Korimyr the Rat said:

Many people of good conscience have profound disagreements over how best to serve God's will.

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Jesus had said: No one goes to heaven without doing the will of my Father.

And His Father had stipulated against homosexual sex.

Do you think it of "good" conscience to disobey God?

Goshin said:

To be precise, it was 5 of the 9 black robes.


And now that it is done, there isn't really much of anything we can do about it. We stood against it, we spoke against it, we voted against it... and we lost the issue.



We did what was required of us. There's nothing more to be done.

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Do you now believe that there is nothing morally wrong with homosexual relationship?

ludin said:

God considers it a sin.

For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. do you consider yourself to know more than God? if so then you set yourself up as a god,
and we know what happened to the last person that tried to do that. He was tossed out of heaven on his ear.

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Do you? :lol: Kind of ironic that you are bringing me to task for "knowing more than God," when you are in here actually speaking for Him. He can speak for Himself. He doesn't need some random person on the internet to do it for Him.

ludin said:

then why exactly are you here? this is a religious thread based on biblical teachings and values?

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Maybe she is here to learn? I just hope she chooses to learn from a selection of people, and not just the ramblings of one person who presumes to speak for God.

Morality is subjective, and so is everyone's interpretation of God and what he/she/it wants (even within Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc.). There are many gods, many religions, and many different views on morality. The only consistent thing about marriage is that it involves more than one person.

ludin said:

If you haven't been watching which is doubt few people have yesterdays ruling has turned thousands of years of marriage precedent on it's head.
Recently 9 people have determined that marriage is whatever people want it to be. ignoring that since the dawn of time marriage has been between a man
and a women.

This is a gospel and spiritual issue however it should be noted that the bible speaks of such events. we as Christians are to remember where our citizenships really
are at.

1. Morality cannot be legislated. IE morality does not stem from the law or man.

Judges 21:25
In those days Israel had no king; all the people did whatever seemed right in their own eyes.

This was also related by the Russian philosopher Dostoevsky,
If there is no God or if God does not exist then anything is possible. (paraphrased).

our citizenship is in heaven.
18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

the SCOTUS is not the final authority. God is the final authority

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.

These 9 people will stand before God and give an account of their deeds. Their deeds have been recorded and will be tested and they will be judged.

we cannot despair at what men may do because the bible tell us what men will do.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.


however do not forget one of Christ commandments to his disciples.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

We are commanded to love, but that does not mean we have to agree.
There is hope in Jesus Christ and no matter what people of this world do or say they are answerable to God one day just as we are.

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Get a grip.

Gay marriage has been legal in this part of Canada for 17 years, longer in some places in Europe and no Pale Horseman has come to take souls.

Get off the righteous band wagon and take a look at your own house, we are taught, us Christians, to love the sinner and hate the sin, to forgive and leave vengeance and punishment to God.


The extreme self righteous Amerikan church head forgets God's most important line "Mind your own business."


Call me a what you like, but my church has a lesbian pastor...for the record I don't like her, because of her personality not her sexual orientation.

Gathomas88 said:

No one can "certainly" know the mind of God. We can, however, know what he has revealed to us, and how those revelations have traditionally been interpreted. I'm Catholic (and a Catholic of the non-'cafeteria' variety, at that), so it's not like there's a lot of ambiguity in this particular regard where my belief system is concerned.

:shrug:

If it's any consolation, however, I don't necessarily disagree with allowing homosexual couples access to most of the same legal benefits that are allowed to heterosexual couples. I just don't think it is a spiritually valid "marriage" in the religious sense of the word.

It is simply a civil partnership.

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Interpreted!

At last you get it. Interpreted incorrectly is in there, note how the Vatican allowed priests to marry, then not.
Today's interpretation is dark ages, when Rome departed and there was no law in most of Europe and the "interpretation" became puritainical, the church became consumed with sex, thousands, no millions of priests and monks and nuns and servants of the church were born out of the union between parish priests and their "housekeepers".

You guys rely on ONE LINE of the Bible to support your stupid notion that women cannot be clergy.......that's wrong, dark ages and blind.

If you ever want to open your Bible and actually study it you would find the First Preacher in Christian history was a woman...the woman at the well..."Go and tell them I have come".

You will not hold back the right of union to a minority group when your priests are raping and abusing children. You have no mandate and, "let he who has no sinned, cast the first stone."

And always, "anyone who touches the hair of one of these little ones will answer to me." In the judging of sin department, the Roman church needs to clean its own house then worry about gays, especially gay priests.