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I have a question for anybody that believes in hell.[W 52]

ObamacareFail said:
My own personal opinion is that people who are good to themselves and others during their mortal life will be rewarded in the afterlife, regardless of religion. Those who are just plain evil, that darkness will follow them into the afterlife. And yes, I do believe there is an afterlife.
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That's what I thought when I a kid, too. But I know of no religion that actually determines what a person deserves simply by good or bad deeds. There's always an element of servitude. Offending Zeus was a ticket to Tartatrus, the Pharaoh could deny his people an afterlife, Hinduism rewards or punishes you for your adherence to a rigid class structure, and Christianity and Islam condemn you based on what you believe instead of what you do.

Don't get me wrong, if there is a god and an afterlife and judgment, it should be like the one you're talking about, but I don't know of any religion that preaches that.
 
Anomalism said:
I chose this forum to ask this question because I don't want the discussion to get out of hand. Religious or not, please don't respond if you're not going to be civil.

One thing that has never made sense to me is God condemning people to eternal suffering in hell for not accepting His teachings. Is ignorance really such a horrible crime? I've found that non-Christians and even atheists can be moral people that live their lives doing the right thing despite not being Christians. Christianity teaches that God loves all people indiscriminately, and that God's forgiveness has no limits, so why would He condemn an otherwise good person to hell just for getting religion wrong? It makes me think about the people I love, and whether or not I would make them suffer eternally over being ignorant about something that is important to me. The answer to that is a resounding no. If I, a mortal, couldn't bring myself to hurt somebody I love like that over such an insignificant crime, how could the all loving God do it? Am I capable of more love and forgiveness than God? Is there some other factor that I am not considering here? Is God's love for a person reliant on them recognizing Him? Eternal damnation for ignorance does not sound like love to me.
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People condemn themselves to eternal torture, don't you know. :roll:
 
Anomalism said:
I chose this forum to ask this question because I don't want the discussion to get out of hand. Religious or not, please don't respond if you're not going to be civil.

One thing that has never made sense to me is God condemning people to eternal suffering in hell for not accepting His teachings. Is ignorance really such a horrible crime? I've found that non-Christians and even atheists can be moral people that live their lives doing the right thing despite not being Christians. Christianity teaches that God loves all people indiscriminately, and that God's forgiveness has no limits, so why would He condemn an otherwise good person to hell just for getting religion wrong? It makes me think about the people I love, and whether or not I would make them suffer eternally over being ignorant about something that is important to me. The answer to that is a resounding no. If I, a mortal, couldn't bring myself to hurt somebody I love like that over such an insignificant crime, how could the all loving God do it? Am I capable of more love and forgiveness than God? Is there some other factor that I am not considering here? Is God's love for a person reliant on them recognizing Him? Eternal damnation for ignorance does not sound like love to me.
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It is a kind of a petty act for someone that is supposed to be perfect, that and demanding that we pray to him, what an ego!
 
Paschendale said:
This contradiction is certainly a factor in many modern people not believing in that god or the hell that comes with him.



This steaming pile of BS is another factor.



As is this.



Equating goodness or light with mere religious affiliation, instead of being a good person or doing good things, and falsely suggesting that religious affiliation drives or inspires a person towards being a better person or doing better things, is another thing that turns people off to religion.

Judgment and hell and all that might have been a good selling point in the Dark Ages, but it's definitely more a negative for religious ideas in the modern world. The promise of an afterlife drives Jihadists to become suicide bombers. Human empathy and life drive us to act with kindness towards one another. I think this represents a much more mature and progressed view of what makes people do things and of our innate ideas and abilities of morality.
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Where do I equate goodness or light with mere religious affiliation and that human empathy and kindness do not matter? You should try and understand exactly what I am saying before calling it bs.
 
ludin said:
The context of 1 Corinthians 15:40-41 is the contrast between resurrection (celestial or heavenly) and pre-resurrection (terrestrial or earthly) bodies, not heavenly kingdoms. The Bible does speak of three heavens: the atmospheric heaven, where birds fly and from which the rains fall (Genesis 7:23;8:2); the astronomic heaven, where the stars and planets reside (Genesis 1:14, 15; 22:17); and the third heaven, the throne of God (Matthew 6:9; Revelation 4:2).

Verse 40. - There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial. The words are often misunderstood. The "celestial bodies" are not the sun, moon, and stars of the next verse - for that would be a false antithesis to "bodies terrestrial" - but bodies (or organisms) which belong to heavenly beings, such as the resurrection body of our Lord and of glorified saints, or even in some sense of angels

40. celestial bodies—not the sun, moon, and stars, which are first introduced in 1Co 15:41, but the bodies of angels, as distinguished from the bodies of earthly creatures.
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We disagree on the interpretation of these verses.
 
laska said:
We disagree on the interpretation of these verses.
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you can disagree all you want to the fact is the book of Mormon does not state what the bible states. I have just shown you the truth behind what the verses mean and you reject the truth. that is not my problem.

all of those come from well known and respect bible commentaries and they are all pretty much in agreement.

also you have to understand the entire passage not just a few verses. Paul is preaching to the people of Corinth and in that chapter it appears that there
are some people that think the dead are not resurrected.

in the previous verses Paul says well if the dead are not resurrected then Christ wasn't resurrected and your faith is in vain which is true.

40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

this is clearly a comparison thing.

it is not an absolute thing nor are there 3 heavens. there is 1 heaven and 1 earth.

from revelation.
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

see it is not plural it is singular. in fact both are singular not plural. there is only 1 heaven.
 
the_recruit said:
People condemn themselves to eternal torture, don't you know. :roll:
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does the murderer or the thief not condemn themselves to the punishment of the law?

sin is sin and in that God views sin in the same light as a judge would view a thief.
 
ludin said:
does the murderer or the thief not condemn themselves to the punishment of the law?
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No, the state does. Murderers/thiefs don't consent to being punished in any way. The punishment is forced upon them.
 
the_recruit said:
No, the state does. Murderers/thiefs don't consent to being punished in any way. The punishment is forced upon them.
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not really. they knew the punishment before they committed the crime. no one forced them to commit it. they did it of their own free will.
 
ludin said:
not really. they knew the punishment before they committed the crime.
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Foolish, short sighted but not consent.

ludin said:
no one forced them to commit it. they did it of their own free will.
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Yes, they consented to the crime. They do not consent to the punishment. We punish them in spite of their lack of consent, not with their consent. It is senseless to talk of our imprisonment of criminals as somehow being "voluntary". Imprisonment is involuntary confinement.

Don't confuse involuntary as unjustifiable.
 
the_recruit said:
Foolish, short sighted but not consent.
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sure it is.

I know if I steal this item I am going to jail. I steal the item anyway.
I know if I kill this person I am going to jail or probably going to die myself. I do it anyway.

very much constent.


Yes, they consented to the crime. They do not consent to the punishment. We punish them in spite of their lack of consent, not with their consent. It is senseless to talk of our imprisonment of criminals as somehow being "voluntary". Imprisonment is involuntary confinement.

Don't confuse involuntary as unjustifiable.
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yes they did consent to the punishment by committing the crime.
it is voluntary. if you don't commit the crime then you don't go to jail.

pretty simple to understand.

there is no justification in stealing or murdering someone in general. there are exception IE self defense, but other than that there is no justification.
there is no justification for taking what someone else has.

God however has provided by justification and Santification along with grace and mercy.

those that reject that however will be punished as the law states. it is a free will decision.
 
Anomalism said:
I chose this forum to ask this question because I don't want the discussion to get out of hand. Religious or not, please don't respond if you're not going to be civil.

One thing that has never made sense to me is God condemning people to eternal suffering in hell for not accepting His teachings. Is ignorance really such a horrible crime? I've found that non-Christians and even atheists can be moral people that live their lives doing the right thing despite not being Christians. Christianity teaches that God loves all people indiscriminately, and that God's forgiveness has no limits, so why would He condemn an otherwise good person to hell just for getting religion wrong? It makes me think about the people I love, and whether or not I would make them suffer eternally over being ignorant about something that is important to me. The answer to that is a resounding no. If I, a mortal, couldn't bring myself to hurt somebody I love like that over such an insignificant crime, how could the all loving God do it? Am I capable of more love and forgiveness than God? Is there some other factor that I am not considering here? Is God's love for a person reliant on them recognizing Him? Eternal damnation for ignorance does not sound like love to me.
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If even 1 person goes to hell, then Jesus died for nothing.
 
Anomalism said:
I chose this forum to ask this question because I don't want the discussion to get out of hand. Religious or not, please don't respond if you're not going to be civil.

One thing that has never made sense to me is God condemning people to eternal suffering in hell for not accepting His teachings. Is ignorance really such a horrible crime? I've found that non-Christians and even atheists can be moral people that live their lives doing the right thing despite not being Christians. Christianity teaches that God loves all people indiscriminately, and that God's forgiveness has no limits, so why would He condemn an otherwise good person to hell just for getting religion wrong? It makes me think about the people I love, and whether or not I would make them suffer eternally over being ignorant about something that is important to me. The answer to that is a resounding no. If I, a mortal, couldn't bring myself to hurt somebody I love like that over such an insignificant crime, how could the all loving God do it? Am I capable of more love and forgiveness than God? Is there some other factor that I am not considering here? Is God's love for a person reliant on them recognizing Him? Eternal damnation for ignorance does not sound like love to me.
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First of all, Hell was never intended for us, it was intended for Satan and the angels that followed him in rebellion against God. Secondly, God doesn't condemn anyone to Hell. If you end up there, it's because of your choice to follow the path of rebellion against God - YOU chose Hell, not God.
 
Jerry said:
If even 1 person goes to hell, then Jesus died for nothing.
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not really. please expound on this.
He even said that not all will be saved.

in fact plenty of His parables relate to such ideas.
 
Jerry said:
If even 1 person goes to hell, then Jesus died for nothing.
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Jesus' death didn't spare us from Hell, it provided a way to be spared from Hell. We all have the opportunity to take that path or reject it, but it is OUR choice to do so.
 
ludin said:
sure it is.

I know if I steal this item I am going to jail. I steal the item anyway.
I know if I kill this person I am going to jail or probably going to die myself. I do it anyway.

very much constent.




yes they did consent to the punishment by committing the crime.
it is voluntary. if you don't commit the crime then you don't go to jail.
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Then why are there bars on the windows? :lamo

Do you hear the nonsense you're speaking?

Imprisonment is involuntary confinement. If you think the prisoners are there voluntarily, then you don't know what voluntary means.

ludin said:
there is no justification in stealing or murdering someone in general. there are exception IE self defense, but other than that there is no justification.
there is no justification for taking what someone else has.
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Hence, why we imprison such criminal involuntarily. :doh
 
Anomalism said:
I chose this forum to ask this question because I don't want the discussion to get out of hand. Religious or not, please don't respond if you're not going to be civil.

One thing that has never made sense to me is God condemning people to eternal suffering in hell for not accepting His teachings. Is ignorance really such a horrible crime? I've found that non-Christians and even atheists can be moral people that live their lives doing the right thing despite not being Christians. Christianity teaches that God loves all people indiscriminately, and that God's forgiveness has no limits, so why would He condemn an otherwise good person to hell just for getting religion wrong? It makes me think about the people I love, and whether or not I would make them suffer eternally over being ignorant about something that is important to me. The answer to that is a resounding no. If I, a mortal, couldn't bring myself to hurt somebody I love like that over such an insignificant crime, how could the all loving God do it? Am I capable of more love and forgiveness than God? Is there some other factor that I am not considering here? Is God's love for a person reliant on them recognizing Him? Eternal damnation for ignorance does not sound like love to me.
Click to expand...

Hell is not as cut and dry a concept as a lot of people like to make out. While it can be considered to be a "punishment," after a fashion, it is ultimately just as much a self-imposed punishment as one inflicted upon a person.

"Hell" is ultimately a choice, and, in some sense, even a mercy.

After all, if one makes the conscious choice to reject God and the things he stands for, then they cannot go to heaven. That much should be obvious.

Well, where else can they really go then?

Rather than simply "uncreate" such problematic persons, God provides another alternative. He gives them another place which they may inhabit, largely free from his presence.

Unfortunately, it simply happens to the case that everything "good" in existence flows from the presence of God, so that place is kind of terrible. It's also inhabited by a great many beings - some of whom are quite a bit more powerful than you could ever be - who have made similar choices, are similarly tormented by them, and have no reason to treat you kindly.

Without God's presence, you have nothing with which to protect yourself from them.
 
faithful_servant said:
Jesus' death didn't spare us from Hell, it provided a way to be spared from Hell. We all have the opportunity to take that path or reject it, but it is OUR choice to do so.
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At the end of the day, it's God's choice whether or not to forgive us.

We can go through life knowing that the way we're living is contradictory to the teachings of whatever religion, faith or morals we may hold, and that the consequence of our behavior is eternal damnation.

But when the rubber meets the road it's God's choice whether he "opens up the Pearly gates", or pushes us off the cloud (as it were).

Being omnipotent God is not bound by any constraints.

He is not obligated or limited to casting a soul in to Hell "because he said he would if you didn't do XXX".

So it is very, very much God's choice where our souls reside for all eternity.

Now, I believe that God is pure caring, pure love, pure forgiveness, and the antithesis of evil.

If God, being what he is (and isn't) were to cast a soul in to Hell for all eternity despite the total freedom to forgive, that would be evil.

I don't think God could or would choose evil when it is his very nature to love and forgive.
 
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I've made this argument many times and have been met by responses distinguishing between "evil" and "just" and also noting that by their own choice, some souls are "irredeemable."
 
the_recruit said:
Then why are there bars on the windows? :lamo

Do you hear the nonsense you're speaking?

Imprisonment is involuntary confinement. If you think the prisoners are there voluntarily, then you don't know what voluntary means.



Hence, why we imprison such criminal involuntarily. :doh
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it isn't involuntary. they willingly committed the crime that put them there knowing the risk of what would happen if they did it.

it isn't nonsense it is very logical.

just as God has given you a way for the redemption of sin and you refuse to take it. So it isn't God that sends people to hell they send themselves.
 
soot said:
At the end of the day, it's God's choice whether or not to forgive us.
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He has already forgiven it is up to you to accept that forgiveness.

We can go through life knowing that the way we're living is contradictory to the teachings of whatever religion, faith or morals we may hold, and that the consequence of our behavior is eternal damnation.

But when the rubber meets the road it's God's choice whether he "opens up the Pearly gates", or pushes us off the cloud (as it were).
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nope it is your choice.

Being omnipotent God is not bound by any constraints.
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he is bound by his own nature.

He is not obligated or limited to casting a soul in to Hell "because he said he would if you didn't do XXX".
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God keeps his promises.

So it is very, very much God's choice where our souls reside for all eternity.
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nope again he has given you a choice. if you refuse to accept His way of salvation then you put yourself there.

Now, I believe that God is pure caring, pure love, pure forgiveness, and the antithesis of evil.
If God, being what he is (and isn't) were to cast a soul in to Hell for all eternity despite the total freedom to forgive, that would be evil.
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no it isn't because you left out that God is a Just God and He will not allow evil to continue and He will finally put judgment on the wicked.
He did provide a way for forgiveness if you refuse to accept that then that is your issue not God's.

I don't think God could or would choose evil when it is his very nature to love and forgive.
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He isn't choosing evil He is punishing evil for he is a Just God.
 
Gathomas88 said:
Hell is not as cut and dry a concept as a lot of people like to make out. While it can be considered to be a "punishment," after a fashion, it is ultimately just as much a self-imposed punishment as one inflicted upon a person.

"Hell" is ultimately a choice, and, in some sense, even a mercy.

After all, if one makes the conscious choice to reject God and the things he stands for, then they cannot go to heaven. That much should be obvious.

Well, where else can they really go then?

Rather than simply "uncreate" such problematic persons, God provides another alternative. He gives them another place which they may inhabit, largely free from his presence.

Unfortunately, it simply happens to the case that everything "good" in existence flows from the presence of God, so that place is kind of terrible. It's also inhabited by a great many beings - some of whom are quite a bit more powerful than you could ever be - who have made similar choices, are similarly tormented by them, and have no reason to treat you kindly.

Without God's presence, you have nothing with which to protect yourself from them.
Click to expand...

very well put.
 
soot said:
At the end of the day, it's God's choice whether or not to forgive us.

We can go through life knowing that the way we're living is contradictory to the teachings of whatever religion, faith or morals we may hold, and that the consequence of our behavior is eternal damnation.

But when the rubber meets the road it's God's choice whether he "opens up the Pearly gates", or pushes us off the cloud (as it were).

Being omnipotent God is not bound by any constraints.

He is not obligated or limited to casting a soul in to Hell "because he said he would if you didn't do XXX".

So it is very, very much God's choice where our souls reside for all eternity.

Now, I believe that God is pure caring, pure love, pure forgiveness, and the antithesis of evil.

If God, being what he is (and isn't) were to cast a soul in to Hell for all eternity despite the total freedom to forgive, that would be evil.

I don't think God could or would choose evil when it is his very nature to love and forgive.
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Soot,

Many of your views are contrary to the Bible and what Jesus taught.

If you want to believe that you can reject Christ and remain in God's love and blessings, then that's your own man-made religion. It has no support from the Bible.

Why do you think you can just believe what you want and expect it to have any validity in the here and hereafter?

Where's your objective support for your views?

John 3:36
 
soot said:
At the end of the day, it's God's choice whether or not to forgive us.

We can go through life knowing that the way we're living is contradictory to the teachings of whatever religion, faith or morals we may hold, and that the consequence of our behavior is eternal damnation.

But when the rubber meets the road it's God's choice whether he "opens up the Pearly gates", or pushes us off the cloud (as it were).

Being omnipotent God is not bound by any constraints.

He is not obligated or limited to casting a soul in to Hell "because he said he would if you didn't do XXX".

So it is very, very much God's choice where our souls reside for all eternity.

Now, I believe that God is pure caring, pure love, pure forgiveness, and the antithesis of evil.

If God, being what he is (and isn't) were to cast a soul in to Hell for all eternity despite the total freedom to forgive, that would be evil.

I don't think God could or would choose evil when it is his very nature to love and forgive.
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The flaw in your argument is that you think that God operates without any constrainsts - He most certainly does not. He operates under His own constraints and one of those constraints is that He won't violate our free will. Forcing someone to spend eternity in with Him when they have rejected Him would be violating that self-imposed constraint. God has done everything possible, short of violating that constraint to get us to choose Heaven and not Hell.
 
One third of young folk do not belong to an organized religion. Makes no sense whatever.
 
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