Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed? [W:96]

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Gathomas88 said:

At least if followed as its founder pretty clearly intended, Islam was basically built from the ground up to be "opposed" to every religion out there that isn't isn't Islam.

Their Holy Texts aren't exactly subtle about it, after all. They blatantly call for the faithful to convert, kill, enslave, or otherwise politically, militarily, and culturally dominate anyone who isn't Islamic.

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Exactly. Islam was created quite intentionally and with a definite political purpose. The Q'ran reads as one, long invocation for Mohammad's warriors to continue to expand until all others submit.

Far too many have a silly phobia when something is called "religion". They simply lose their ability to judge the essence of what it actually is. If the same people who routinely defend Islam in all their sophomoric ways because it is "religion" were to see it for the totalitarian belief system it actually is, they might begin to understand it. Until such a time, however, they will just continue to flail away making any vapid comparison to other religions as fits their agenda.

A dragonfly has wings. A B-52 has wings. They must be the same.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Ikari said:

It's all the same god of Abraham. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all trace their origin stories to that god. That's why those three are called Abrahamic religions.

Of course it diverges and the applications of particular religious philosophy are quite different. But the base is the same god.

It may be an inconvienent truth, but it is true. Christianity and Islam follow the same God of Abraham..

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I've already demonstrated that they're not the same God here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...y-diametrically-opposed-3.html#post1064645555

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Cable said:

Yours is a secular understanding. To those who know God, the two are pretty much polar opposites. That is the truth.

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The practices are different, the specifics are different, but it all starts with the same god, the religions merely took different evolutionary paths. The starting point is the same though. It's not a big deal, it's just fact.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

tosca1 said:

What's strikingly bizarre - for lack of better word - is that the Quran's narrative of its messiah and end times.....is actually the
fulfillment of the Christian Revelation prophecy!

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Chagos said:

It would be, the Qur'an having taken over a lot from the bible.

Muslims simply believe that the "divine book" was revealed to Jesus, they have no reference to any of the gospels. Islam holds Torah and Bible, where divine, to have been corrupted with the passing of time by addendums that were written by the unauthorized.

There are pointers indicating that this did not happen until around the 11th century (around 400 years after Islam arose) with Ibn Hazm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia codifying Islamic thought.

Seems that before that (him) the bible was thought of far more highly.

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As a Christian, myself and other Christians I know believe this way:
This is not a "fulfillment of Christian prophecy", but an emulation of what is prophecized to happen in Revelation.
Satan is often referred to as the Great Deceiver and one of his main strategies is to emulate God and Jesus Christ to deceive people.
An example in Revelation is that the anti-Christ is going to be mortally wounded in the head and will "miraculously" be "resurrected" thereby giving proof that he is in fact the one true God.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

The fundamental difference is : Islam is not a religion.It's a justification of Muhammad's actions and behavior.

Quote from Muhammad's wife(Aisha)

Bukhari (60:311) - "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."

Quran verses about Muhammad's sex life:

Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; "

Qur'an (33:51) - "You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased"

Qur'an (66:1-5) - "O Prophet! Why do you ban (for yourself) that which Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives?... Allah has already ordained for you, the dissolution of your oaths "

He had so many wives that he was having difficulties with making a sex schedule,suddenly you have these revelations.

"Qur'an didn't appear to have enough space for topics like universal love and brotherhood, the list of sexual partners that Muhammad was entitled to is detailed more than once, sometimes in categories and sometimes in reference to specific persons (ie. Zaynab and Mary)."

Muhammad had an adopted son,later he fancied his daughter in law however it wasn't acceptable at that time(in pre Islamic Arabic culture)He turned to people and said "I was told by God that adoption is forbidden"

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

iangb said:

...except that you previously described Islam as "convert or die!".

Speaking as someone with multiple Muslim colleagues and friends, I'm not all that fearful of being murdered.

Or are you going to try and argue that they aren't true Muslims?

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There's no difference with a self-proclaimed christian who doesn't follow the teachings of Jesus. Jesus would say, "I never knew you!"
A self-proclaimed Muslim who doesn't follow the teachings in the Quran ....is not a true Muslim. He only thinks he is.

Go ask ISIS. They'll confirm what I said.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

NOW I've read it ALL.

ISIS as the ultimate theological authority on Islam.

One might as well cite the KKK as the ultimate theological authority on Christianity.

Wonder how much dumber this is gonna get, there isn't much room towards the bottom anymore.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Gardener said:

I don't think it really takes a deist to understand that any religion manufactured by a person in the business of killing people in order to bind his warriors to him would bear his stamp on it.

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It is kind of puzzling yet enlightening to me to see all the secular posts on this thread. I would expect them to read and not post, or post very little, ...maybe some questions. But the posts are far more than this.
This thread isn't about how the secularists view Islam/Christianity. This is the religious forum, where we talk about things religious. In this case, how Islam and Christianity might be polar opposites and impossible to reconcile.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Chagos said:

"diametrically opposed" would be an over-statement, they're certainly not the same.
Nevertheless they have in common of not only being mono-theistic and originating broadly in the same geography (as opposed to Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism and Pastafarianism etc.), but also of basing upon another.
More precisely, in order of appearance, Christianity building on Judaism and Islam building on both predecessors.
Then to diverge to different paths.

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I wouldn't phrase it like that, coming from within Christianity. To me it looks like this:

Christianity fulfills (completes) Judaism, Islam perverts that completion. No offense meant. It is what it is.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Ikari said:

The practices are different, the specifics are different, but it all starts with the same god, the religions merely took different evolutionary paths. The starting point is the same though. It's not a big deal, it's just fact.

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I guess Satanists start with the same God too. So it must be roughly the same as Christianity?

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Cable said:

I wouldn't phrase it like that, coming from within Christianity. To me it looks like this:

Christianity fulfills (completes) Judaism, Islam perverts that completion. No offense meant. It is what it is.

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If one wants to go supporting one's own by denigrating another(or others), I guess it becomes basically a question of vantage point (which of the three one is positioned in).

In that sense Judaism holds Christianity to be a perversion of Judaism. And Islam, of course, to be the same. It doesn't care much of what the two think of each other, both being deemed invalid anyway.

And Islam holds Judaism in about the same esteem as it does Christianity.

But those are the doctrines, humans of all three can get along with a little bit of effort. As I've had ample opportunity to observe.

Heck, even with me (and I with them), who has no cards in any of these games. Probably, in my case, because I have no beef with their religions.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Cable said:

I guess Satanists start with the same God too. So it must be roughly the same as Christianity?

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In the three monotheistic (Abrahamic) religions Satan is the same badass. That they DO have in common.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Ikari said:

I don't see why they would have to be fundelamentally opposed, they worship the same god.

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Because they believe the other groups god doesn't exist. They're one deity away from atheism.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Paschendale said:

They're extremely similar. They're not opposed at all. However, one of the similarities is that they both want to dominate every facet of the world around them, and neither is capable of sharing.

In most Christian countries, "convert or die" is the norm. It's only in secular nations where religious violence is actually stopped and Christianity isn't allowed to impose itself that it turns into "good news".

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Name a Christian nation today that says convert or die. Name a Jewish country today that says convert or die. And there are a few Islamic nations that don't say convert or die.

Is there a word like "racism" for people that blindly hate the religious?

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Chagos said:

In the three monotheistic (Abrahamic) religions Satan is the same badass. That they DO have in common.

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I don't think you understand Satan either.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Radical said:

Name a Christian nation today that says convert or die. Name a Jewish country today that says convert or die. And there are a few Islamic nations that don't say convert or die.

Is there a word like "racism" for people that blindly hate the religious?

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Radical Atheist?

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Cable said:

I don't think you understand Satan either.

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Well, in my book there's no such person or being.

But I understand the idea. A different one in every one of the three religions.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Chagos said:

Well, in my book there's no such person or being.

But I understand the idea. A different one in every one of the three religions.

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I understand the difference between the Jewish concept and the Christian concept, but how is the Islamic concept of Satan different that the Christian one?

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Cable said:

Radical Atheist?

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I was thinking "missionary atheist", but that still doesn't have the blind hate connotation I want... Radical atheist just seems like someone who really, really doesn't think God exists, haha

RAMOSS said:

I understand the difference between the Jewish concept and the Christian concept, but how is the Islamic concept of Satan different that the Christian one?

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Actually, it's not a lot different. The only difference in this respect for Christianity and Islam is that the demons of Islam are not "fallen angels". Demons are a different species entirely.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Yes, they are.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

youngturk said:

When was the last time a non-Christian was murdered for not converting to Christianity?

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I think a number of those killed at Srebrenica would have been happy to accept that option, had it been offered to them.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Radical said:

Name a Christian nation today that says convert or die. Name a Jewish country today that says convert or die. And there are a few Islamic nations that don't say convert or die.

Is there a word like "racism" for people that blindly hate the religious?

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On the contrary even countries with a strict interpretation of Sharia Law like Iran and Saudi Arabia have large non muslim minorities. IF such a policy exists in these countries they are not implementing it very effectively.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Paschendale said:

They're extremely similar. They're not opposed at all. However, one of the similarities is that they both want to dominate every facet of the world around them, and neither is capable of sharing.
In most Christian countries, "convert or die" is the norm. It's only in secular nations where religious violence is actually stopped and Christianity isn't allowed to impose itself that it turns into "good news".

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The Quran contains 824 episodes of cruelty, intolerance or obvious unjustice (bad stuff), and many of this 824 episodes include all three types of bad stuff (Skeptic's Annotated Quran).

Much of the bad stuff is about how the non-believers are to be tortured in hell (e.g. Surah 4,56: Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise).

There are only 78 episodes of “good stuff” in the Quran. Thus, the ratio of “bad stuff” contra “good stuff” is about 10.6 in the Quran.

Correspondingly, In the New Testament I have found 444 episodes of “bad stuff” and 152 episodes of “good stuff”. Thus the ratio of “bad stuff” contra “good stuff” is about 2.9 in New Testament.

In this way we may say that The Quran is 10.6/2.9 = 3.6 times worse than the New Testament.

This is of course not “exact science”, just an indication. I do not believe that neither the Quaran nor the New Testament are something to build your life on.

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Originally Posted by Radical View Post
Is there a word like "racism" for people that blindly hate the religious?

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Ignorant bigots?

Re: Are Islam and Christianity diametrically opposed?

Red_Dave said:

On the contrary even countries with a strict interpretation of Sharia Law like Iran and Saudi Arabia have Large Non Muslim minorities.
IF such a policy exists in these countries they are not implementing it very effectively.

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No they don't.

Iran is 99.4% Muslim
Demographics of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and what's left of minorities ARE persecuted.
ie, Jews, thought to be app 25K, were actually about 8700 and dropping when the 2011 census came in.

Saudi Arabia virtually 100% Muslim.
Countries Compared by Religion > Islam > Percentage Muslim. International Statistics at NationMaster.com

non-Muslims are persecuted in Most (almost All) Muslim countries, either Officially or unofficially.
Meanwhile, Muslims in the Christian West can brag they are "the Fastest growing religion," even as they Purge Christians from their countries.