• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Jesus on the Cross

Status
Not open for further replies.
Amadeus

Amadeus

Chews the Cud
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 29, 2013
Messages
6,081
Reaction score
3,216
Location
Benghazi
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
If Jesus is an incarnation of God, who cannot die, what is the religious significance of Jesus being crucified? If Jesus was a man, and not God in disguise, would his crucifixion have the same meaning?
 
Amadeus said:
If Jesus is an incarnation of God, who cannot die, what is the religious significance of Jesus being crucified? If Jesus was a man, and not God in disguise, would his crucifixion have the same meaning?
Click to expand...
My finding is that Jesus was not God and Jesus was just an exceptional Man who delivered a message from God along with a very vivid example for that message.

The Gospel texts has the info in the text that Jesus was resuscitated by the spear into His side which drained fluid off of His lungs (and maybe off of His heart) and they took down the body where He laid for three days to recover before He got up again, then a short time later He still died of the massive injuries.

The Bible tells us that He lived another 40 days but surely that is exaggerated.

If Jesus had been some God that could not die then the entire crucifixion was just a charade and meaningless.
 
JP Cusick said:
My finding is that Jesus was not God and Jesus was just an exceptional Man who delivered a message from God along with a very vivid example for that message.

The Gospel texts has the info in the text that Jesus was resuscitated by the spear into His side which drained fluid off of His lungs (and maybe off of His heart) and they took down the body where He laid for three days to recover before He got up again, then a short time later He still died of the massive injuries.
Click to expand...

This ranks among the most baseless accusations that I've ever heard.
 
Amadeus said:
If Jesus is an incarnation of God, who cannot die, what is the religious significance of Jesus being crucified? If Jesus was a man, and not God in disguise, would his crucifixion have the same meaning?
Click to expand...

According to Scripture everybody lives forever, whether in heaven or in hell.

But for the people who seek to minimize the pain and suffering unto death that Jesus went through, perhaps they also can take 39 lashes, a beating, and hop up on a cross for us for six hours until they die and let us know how they like it.
 
Last edited:
Amadeus said:
If Jesus is an incarnation of God, who cannot die, what is the religious significance of Jesus being crucified? If Jesus was a man, and not God in disguise, would his crucifixion have the same meaning?
Click to expand...

The purpose of Jesus' crucifixion - his pain, suffering and death was to provide salvation to mankind. Your answer is found in the gospels and in probably the most famous quote from John 3:16 explains it. Jesus was a man and his crucifixion does mean the same thing. His resurrection was a fulfillment of prophecy, found in Matthew 12:40. If you want to understand some points of Christianity, wouldn't the first place to look be in a Bible? The first four books of the New Testament tell differing stories of basically the same life of Jesus with different emphasis. One thing I will dispute with modern Christianity which I believe is in alignment with science --- that the cross Jesus was crucified on was not a T or t shape, but more like the Chi-Rho type or St. Andrews cross.
 
Logicman said:
According to Scripture everybody lives forever, whether in heaven or in hell.

But for the people who seek to minimize the pain and suffering unto death that Jesus went through, perhaps they also can take 39 lashes, a beating, and hop up on a cross for us for six hours until they die and let us know how they like it.
Click to expand...

Let's not minimize the suffering of Jesus. The limit of 39 lashes was observed by Jews, not Roman soldiers. Jesus could have very easily taken more lashes than that.
 
Logicman said:
According to Scripture everybody lives forever, whether in heaven or in hell.

But for the people who seek to minimize the pain and suffering unto death that Jesus went through, perhaps they also can take 39 lashes, a beating, and hop up on a cross for us for six hours until they die and let us know how they like it.
Click to expand...

I don't seek to minimize the crucifixion, only understand its significance. If you were to say that God was given lashes and a beating, would that not sound a bit odd to you? To most Christians, Jesus was/is God.

I would and could take lashes and a beating if I were God incarnate. However, since I am mortal, I would rather not.
 
Amadeus said:
I don't seek to minimize the crucifixion, only understand its significance. If you were to say that God was given lashes and a beating, would that not sound a bit odd to you? To most Christians, Jesus was/is God.

I would and could take lashes and a beating if I were God incarnate. However, since I am mortal, I would rather not.
Click to expand...

Hypostatic union. You're not taking into account the fact that Jesus is fully God and fully man.
 
phattonez said:
Hypostatic union. You're not taking into account the fact that Jesus is fully God and fully man.
Click to expand...

Either Jesus was a divine being or he wasn't. He cannot be both and neither.
 
Amadeus said:
Either Jesus was a divine being or he wasn't. He cannot be both and neither.
Click to expand...

Perhaps read a little more about they hypostatic union before immediately dismissing it. Jesus was fully divine, but that in no way takes away from His humanity.
 
phattonez said:
Perhaps read a little more about they hypostatic union before immediately dismissing it. Jesus was fully divine, but that in no way takes away from His humanity.
Click to expand...

I will dismiss it because it makes no sense whatsoever. It's a paradoxical term that can only be explained or rationalized by faith. If every discussion regarding Christianity ends with, "Because faith...", then there is no scholarly debate to be had.
 
Amadeus said:
If Jesus is an incarnation of God, who cannot die, what is the religious significance of Jesus being crucified?
If Jesus was a man, and not God in disguise, would his crucifixion have the same meaning?
Click to expand...

The significance of Jesus dying for our sins is comparable to the sacrificial lamb in order to atone for sins.
That's how Jews in the Old Testament do their atonement - by offering a sacrificial lamb.

If Jesus were a man and not God, would His crucifixion have the same meaning?
If it's been the plan of God that man be saved by a man (not an incarnation), I don't see why it cannot have the same meaning, after all the death of Jesus was meant to appease God for the sins of man.
 
Last edited:
Amadeus said:
I will dismiss it because it makes no sense whatsoever. It's a paradoxical term that can only be explained or rationalized by faith. If every discussion regarding Christianity ends with, "Because faith...", then there is no scholarly debate to be had.
Click to expand...

So your point in this thread is to try to refute Christianity? Then perhaps you should start a thread in the philosophy forum. This isn't the place for that.
 
I have to admit I have never seen what was so exceptional about Jesus' execution. Don't get me wrong, it was certainly horrible torture but throughout history countless people have been tortured as bad, or worse, for longer. Hell, there have been people around the world THIS YEAR who have suffered as bad or worse. And those people didn't get to become King of Heaven. Had the sinless Christ willingly gone to Hell and STAYED there for eternity then I could see that being a sacrifice worthy of everyones salvation, assuming the concept of sacrifice made any sense at all.
 
Amadeus said:
If Jesus was a man, and not God in disguise, would his crucifixion have the same meaning?
Click to expand...

I had to contemplate some more on that part.....

On the other hand, with God Himself becoming man (to feel all the pain that any human can feel), and dying for us - that, truly is a message, and a demonstration of pure love from a loving and forgiving God.

Having a common man die for mankind's sin may pay the price for mankind's sin - but the pure meaning of it wouldn't be the same at all.

Imagine Jesus/God.....willingly offered Himself to suffer and die for us.

At anytime, He could've just opted to wipe out everyone and everything to start all over again - He was sorely tempted in the Old Testament but relented due to the pleading of Abraham (?).
 
Last edited:
phattonez said:
So your point in this thread is to try to refute Christianity? Then perhaps you should start a thread in the philosophy forum. This isn't the place for that.
Click to expand...

My point isn't to refute Christianity, but to try and understand the meaning of Jesus sacrifice. I think it is a valid theological question.
 
Amadeus said:
My point isn't to refute Christianity, but to try and understand the meaning of Jesus sacrifice. I think it is a valid theological question.
Click to expand...

And then when you get a theological answer you ignore it at first glance. That doesn't sound like honest intellectual inquiry.
 
BrewerBob said:
I have to admit I have never seen what was so exceptional about Jesus' execution. Don't get me wrong, it was certainly horrible torture but throughout history countless people have been tortured as bad, or worse, for longer. Hell, there have been people around the world THIS YEAR who have suffered as bad or worse. And those people didn't get to become King of Heaven. Had the sinless Christ willingly gone to Hell and STAYED there for eternity then I could see that being a sacrifice worthy of everyones salvation, assuming the concept of sacrifice made any sense at all.
Click to expand...

How many offered themselves to go through that kind of torture, I wonder?

How many rich and powerful men had offered themselves to suffer and die for what could be insignificant people (compared to their status)? Would a someone like Bill gates offer to die for a homeless man?

Especially if those people were rebellious against the powerful, rich man? Had caused the rich and powerful man such grief - repeatedly? Betrayed him repeatedly - the pain of the betrayal He compared to the pain felt by one whose spouse had committed adultery?

And here we're not talking about merely a rich and powerful person. We're talking about a God who need not have to go through all that. With a wave of His hand all His creation can be erased - and He would've had a clean slate to start all over again.

But instead, He chose to feel the pain, to suffer and die to save mankind.
 
Last edited:
tosca1 said:
I had to contemplate some more on that part.....
Click to expand...

I'm glad that my question provoked serious thought, and while I still don't quite understand the significance of the crucifixion if Jesus was/is God, I appreciate the answer.

On the other hand, with God Himself becoming man (to feel all the pain that any human can feel), and dying for us - that, truly is a message, and a demonstration of pure love from a loving and forgiving God.

Having a common man die for mankind's sin may pay the price for mankind's sin - but the pure meaning of it wouldn't be the same at all.

Imagine Jesus/God.....willingly offered Himself to suffer and die for us.

At anytime, He could've just opted to wipe out everyone and everything to start all over again - He was sorely tempted in the Old Testament but relented due to the pleading of Abraham (?).
Click to expand...

Although you didn't quite say this, I think there is validity in the notion that God incarnated himself as a mortal in order to experience the human condition and relate to humanity. Clearly there is a difference in the temperament of Jesus-God and Father-God.
 
phattonez said:
And then when you get a theological answer you ignore it at first glance. That doesn't sound like honest intellectual inquiry.
Click to expand...

Well, you shut down my discussion with you by citing faith. What do you want me to do? I have no response to a paradox.
 
Amadeus said:
I'm glad that my question provoked serious thought, and while I still don't quite understand the significance of the crucifixion if Jesus was/is God, I appreciate the answer.

Although you didn't quite say this, I think there is validity in the notion that God incarnated himself as a mortal in order to experience the human condition and relate to humanity. Clearly there is a difference in the temperament of Jesus-God and Father-God.
Click to expand...


For me, the significance goes beyond saving mankind. It's also to show us that we are loved.
 
Goshin said:
Omnipotence FTW. :D
Click to expand...

Omnipotence has limits. For example, God cannot create a greater God. Or a thousand greater Gods. Therein lies the paradox of omnipotence.
 
Amadeus said:
Omnipotence has limits. For example, God cannot create a greater God. Or a thousand greater Gods. Therein lies the paradox of omnipotence.
Click to expand...


Jesus was wholly God, and wholly Man. This is a mystery, yes. The mortal mind has trouble grasping it... just as the mortal mind has trouble grasping eternity, omnipotence, and omniscience.


I have a theory; it is just a personal working hypothesis and not necessarily correct or scriptural. My theory is that God is a multi-dimensional being. That He exists in several dimensions beyond the 3 of space and one of time that we commonly experience.

He told Moses that mortal man could not look on Him in full and live, but that he would show him only "the shadow of his hinder parts" and Moses was so overwhelmed he could barely survive the experience.

In the same sense that a 3D being could only exist in a 2D world as a "slice" of himself at one time, I think God, a multidimensional being, can normally only interact with our reality in a sort of "partitioned mode" (ie a little bit at a time) lest our reality be overturned and destroyed.

It is thus that we perceive the Trinity or three persona of God, because our mortal minds cannot grasp the whole.

Jesus was wholly man in that he was a spirit inhabiting a human body, with human limits as far as his own will and well-being were concerned, but his spirit was wholly God and his blood was divine because God was the father of his body as well. He was "as much of God as God could put into the world" without it being too much for us to deal with.

Jesus did no miracles for himself, only for others. Lucifer tried to tempt him to act in his own interests, which would have broken the "wholly man" theme of his incarnation, but Jesus resisted him. Jesus could have prevented his crucifixion by exercising his Godly powers if he has so willed, but living a human life and dying a human death was part of his mission, which was to create the necessary bridge between holy God and sin-tainted Man.

So he allowed it to happen, and suffered as a man suffers.... but unlike a man, He overcame death and was bodily resurrected, bore witness forty days and then ascended into Heaven to complete the bridge between Holy God and sinful Mankind.


I know, I know... you don't believe a word of it. That's fine; I didn't write it in any anticipation that you would.


Had something to say; said it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom