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Is Baptism required for salvation?

Declan

Declan

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In John 3:5, Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Since it is agreed in mainstream Christian dogma that only another Christian can baptize someone, this creates a situation in which one is dependent on another person for their salvation, thereby making them your overlord in relation to your access to heaven. Seems like a pyramid scheme at best, but doesn't it contradict the Bible that the only way to God is through Jesus as the only way to Jesus and God is through another person who already has been Baptized before you? Your preacher or whoever dunks or sprinkles you is, in effect, a god in relation to your salvation. This would contradict the position that your faith is between you and god because you cannot have access to god under Christian dogma and the Bible unless another person performs a ritual upon you.
 
Declan said:
In John 3:5, Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Since it is agreed in mainstream Christian dogma that only another Christian can baptize someone, this creates a situation in which one is dependent on another person for their salvation, thereby making them your overlord in relation to your access to heaven. Seems like a pyramid scheme at best, but doesn't it contradict the Bible that the only way to God is through Jesus as the only way to Jesus and God is through another person who already has been Baptized before you? Your preacher or whoever dunks or sprinkles you is, in effect, a god in relation to your salvation. This would contradict the position that your faith is between you and god because you cannot have access to god under Christian dogma and the Bible unless another person performs a ritual upon you.
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Cute feature.
 
Declan said:
Since it is agreed in mainstream Christian dogma that only another Christian can baptize someone, this creates a situation in which one is dependent on another person for their salvation
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Huh. That is an interesting twist I never thought of.

And who baptized John the Baptist in the first place?

It also provides an interesting dilemma in the information age. Back in the day if you were converted to Christianity you most likely were converted by someone in person. But today with the internet and instant communication I am sure people have become Christians by doing research online. What if that person lives somewhere where Christianity isn't practiced openly and baptism is impossible?

My guess is most Christians will say God could see your intent and wouldn't hold it against you.
 
joG said:
Cute feature.
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It is a contradiction in the very structure of the faith and it cannot be explained away by translation because it is a recurrent theme through out the Bible. Either your entire salvation depends upon the deeds of other people or it does not.
 
Declan said:
In John 3:5, Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Since it is agreed in mainstream Christian dogma that only another Christian can baptize someone, this creates a situation in which one is dependent on another person for their salvation, thereby making them your overlord in relation to your access to heaven. Seems like a pyramid scheme at best, but doesn't it contradict the Bible that the only way to God is through Jesus as the only way to Jesus and God is through another person who already has been Baptized before you? Your preacher or whoever dunks or sprinkles you is, in effect, a god in relation to your salvation. This would contradict the position that your faith is between you and god because you cannot have access to god under Christian dogma and the Bible unless another person performs a ritual upon you.
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I dont see anything in John 3:5 about baptism
 
BrewerBob said:
My guess is most Christians will say God could see your intent and wouldn't hold it against you.
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While it would not be unusual for people to disregard teachings of their faith, the Bible does not support such an interpretation. Baptism is a critical aspect of Christianity.
 
Declan said:
It is a contradiction in the very structure of the faith and it cannot be explained away by translation because it is a recurrent theme through out the Bible. Either your entire salvation depends upon the deeds of other people or it does not.
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John got it wrong. ;)
 
Declan said:
Since it is agreed in mainstream Christian dogma that only another Christian can baptize someone...
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John was not a Christian, strictly speaking, and he baptized a lot of people, including Christ himself. Also, the verse says "water AND the Spirit". Important distinction.

That's the usual way. If the thief on the cross next to Jesus was ever baptized, we don't know about it, yet he made it into the Kingdom by faith and by the words of Christ.
 
BrewerBob said:
I am sure people have become Christians by doing research online.
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Very likely the opposite is true. More people have stopped being Christians after having access to knowledge and arguments they had never heard before.
 
it's just me said:
John was not a Christian, strictly speaking, and he baptized a lot of people, including Christ himself. Also, the verse says "water AND the Spirit". Important distinction.

That's the usual way. If the thief on the cross next to Jesus was ever baptized, we don't know about it, yet he made it into the Kingdom by faith and by the words of Christ.
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That does not inform whether baptism is or is not required for salvation. If it is not, then it contradicts the Bible; if it is, then your salvation is not dependent just on your faith but on the acts of others. Which is it?
 
From the Catechism:

CCC said:
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
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Declan said:
That does not inform whether baptism is or is not required for salvation. If it is not, then it contradicts the Bible; if it is, then your salvation is not dependent just on your faith but on the acts of others. Which is it?
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I don't put God in that small of a box. The God who created heaven and Earth can save somebody who has never been baptized if He wants to. For everyone else, there's the Word and sacraments. And you left out the action of the Spirit, as I have already pointed out. It's not as digital as you think it is.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
Very likely the opposite is true. More people have stopped being Christians after having access to knowledge and arguments they had never heard before.
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I don't doubt that the internet has led to more deconversions than conversions. But I also know from personal experience that many people who have converted to Christianity in the past decade did so because of their internet research. Admittedly, they were very selective in the sites they visited. So I am sure some people in countries where converting is illegal did so because of the internet. In which case the dilemma in the OP still stands.
 
it's just me said:
I don't put God in that small of a box. The God who created heaven and Earth can save somebody who has never been baptized if He wants to. For everyone else, there's the Word and sacraments. And you left out the action of the Spirit, as I have already pointed out. It's not as digital as you think it is.
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So you are rejecting the Bible as the authority for Christianity? Do you consider yourself a Christian, if so what is your basis for believing in Jesus as the son of god while rejecting Jesus' words?
 
BrewerBob said:
I don't doubt that the internet has led to more deconversions than conversions. But I also know from personal experience that many people who have converted to Christianity in the past decade did so because of their internet research. Admittedly, they were very selective in the sites they visited. So I am sure some people in countries where converting is illegal did so because of the internet. In which case the dilemma in the OP still stands.
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It is more likely they used the internet in their already happening conversion than that the internet caused them to convert.
 
Declan said:
So you are rejecting the Bible as the authority for Christianity? Do you consider yourself a Christian, if so what is your basis for believing in Jesus as the son of god while rejecting Jesus' words?
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No, I am rejecting you as a reliable interpreter of Sacred Scripture, if that's the way you want it. Did you see Phatz' post?
 
it's just me said:
No, I am rejecting you as a reliable interpreter of Sacred Scripture, if that's the way you want it. Did you see Phatz' post?
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And yet you offer nothing that clarifies the issue. There is nothing that suggests that Christianity is about one's exclusive relationship with God if Baptism is a requirement for salvation and if it is not then there is a fundamental flaw in modern Christianity. Jesus' divinity, the New Testament's authenticity, and/or church legitimacy is at issue. It is just a matter of determining which. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and merciful God. Wherever two are gathered in my name furthers the evidence that Christianity is not about one's relationship with god but a communal relationship with god at best. A christian's salvation is dependent on baptism and unless the person who does the baptism is not faking it for the benjamins, then even that would not guarantee salvation based on church practice and Biblical text.
 
Declan said:
And yet you offer nothing that clarifies the issue. There is nothing that suggests that Christianity is about one's exclusive relationship with God if Baptism is a requirement for salvation and if it is not then there is a fundamental flaw in modern Christianity. Jesus' divinity, the New Testament's authenticity, and/or church legitimacy is at issue. It is just a matter of determining which. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and merciful God. Wherever two are gathered in my name furthers the evidence that Christianity is not about one's relationship with god but a communal relationship with god at best. A christian's salvation is dependent on baptism and unless the person who does the baptism is not faking it for the benjamins, then even that would not guarantee salvation based on church practice and Biblical text.
Click to expand...

The God of the Old Testament is loving and forgiving, just as the God of the New Testament. Do you just repeat whatever you hear without doing the research for yourself? Do you know how many Psalms there are giving glory to God for his mercy?

Just read Psalm 51 and tell me that God is not loving and merciful.
 
phattonez said:
The God of the Old Testament is loving and forgiving, just as the God of the New Testament. Do you just repeat whatever you hear without doing the research for yourself? Do you know how many Psalms there are giving glory to God for his mercy?

Just read Psalm 51 and tell me that God is not loving and merciful.
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(Psst...I know it's Lent but I wouldn't have gone with Psalm 51...)
 
Declan said:
And yet you offer nothing that clarifies the issue. There is nothing that suggests that Christianity is about one's exclusive relationship with God if Baptism is a requirement for salvation and if it is not then there is a fundamental flaw in modern Christianity. Jesus' divinity, the New Testament's authenticity, and/or church legitimacy is at issue. It is just a matter of determining which. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and merciful God. Wherever two are gathered in my name furthers the evidence that Christianity is not about one's relationship with god but a communal relationship with god at best. A christian's salvation is dependent on baptism and unless the person who does the baptism is not faking it for the benjamins, then even that would not guarantee salvation based on church practice and Biblical text.
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You know, I have lost count of the times some atheist who has complained about the possibility of having to go to hell for a gazillion years simply for not believing in God. There, I just threw you a line. If you never had a chance to be baptized but wanted to you're in the clear. God's not going to spring the trap on you over a technicality, that's what HUMANS do, and it's what you're doing. If you end up in hell it will be because you're an unforgiving, unrepentant sinner, it won't be because the guy who performed your baptism had a hangover, the unworthiness of the minister performing the baptism doesn't nullify the sacrament.

Wherever two are gathered in my name furthers the evidence that Christianity is not about one's relationship with god but a communal relationship with god at best.
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By jove, I think he's got it, that's why they call it COMMUNION. But each person in that COMMUNION had to come to God himself, the Church can't do it for you. you gotta read the fine print.
 
it's just me said:
You know, I have lost count of the times some atheist who has complained about the possibility of having to go to hell for a gazillion years simply for not believing in God. There, I just threw you a line. If you never had a chance to be baptized but wanted to you're in the clear. God's not going to spring the trap on you over a technicality, that's what HUMANS do, and it's what you're doing. If you end up in hell it will be because you're an unforgiving, unrepentant sinner, it won't be because the guy who performed your baptism had a hangover, the unworthiness of the minister performing the baptism doesn't nullify the sacrament.



By jove, I think he's got it, that's why they call it COMMUNION. But each person in that COMMUNION had to come to God himself, the Church can't do it for you. you gotta read the fine print.
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You have offered a lot of opinion but no authority, yet. Your opinions that I will burn in hell does not answer the question of whether or not baptism is required for salvation, nor addresses the issue that if it is required, then whether or not one's salvation is dependent on another person and not faith alone under Christianity.
 
phattonez said:
The God of the Old Testament is loving and forgiving, just as the God of the New Testament. Do you just repeat whatever you hear without doing the research for yourself? Do you know how many Psalms there are giving glory to God for his mercy?

Just read Psalm 51 and tell me that God is not loving and merciful.
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God of the Bible is not forgiving and merciful. Regardless, you still have not addressed the contradiction other than an appeal to Catholic doctrine that is inconsistent with the specific teachings of the Bible regarding salvation. Jesus said water, not blood, and at the point someone is dead, there is no turning back.
 
Declan said:
You have offered a lot of opinion but no authority, yet. Your opinions that I will burn in hell does not answer the question of whether or not baptism is required for salvation, nor addresses the issue that if it is required, then whether or not one's salvation is dependent on another person and not faith alone under Christianity.
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"Opinon"???? Has it escaped your attention that I am an ordained minister of the Anglican Church? This is the straight poop, this is what the Church teaches, how much "authority" do you want?
 
Declan said:
God of the Bible is not forgiving and merciful. Regardless, you still have not addressed the contradiction other than an appeal to Catholic doctrine that is inconsistent with the specific teachings of the Bible regarding salvation. Jesus said water, not blood, and at the point someone is dead, there is no turning back.
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Aha, a sola scriptura atheist. No wonder you're having a hard time with this.
 
it's just me said:
"Opinon"???? Has it escaped your attention that I am an ordained minister of the Anglican Church? This is the straight poop, this is what the Church teaches, how much "authority" do you want?
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An ordained minister who can cite scripture would do a better job than you are. An unordained heathen who threw darts at the Bible would hit on something closer to a contribution to this subject than you have thus far by my measure.
 
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