Ever Feel Like You are Given a sign?

Urethra Franklin said:

I actually used the word "suffering" and for me it's the innocent child that dies of cancer, the excited new mother that experiences a stillbirth, the guy that can't get relief from his rheumatoid arthritis or the indignity of the person suffering the symptoms of Parkinsons or Huntingdons. For me personally, I can't believe a God would have designed things that way, and if (s)he did, I can't have respect for that.

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Well, since I don't really think that God "designed" things either, that isn't anything that I've really been too concerned about. To me, it's a fairly dispassionate concept, and not anything with specific purpose. I tend to look at it more along the lines that we are inspired toward purpose because of what we call God, and not that God is the director of that purpose itself.

lizzie said:

Well, since I don't really think that God "designed" things either, that isn't anything that I've really been too concerned about. To me, it's a fairly dispassionate concept, and not anything with specific purpose. I tend to look at it more along the lines that we are inspired toward purpose because of what we call God, and not that God is the director of that purpose itself.

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That is one way of looking at it, and I have far more respect for your way of looking at things than I do for the dogmatic, creationist, "God made all things, we're not to understand, he moves in mysterious ways etc." argument. I personally just can't accept that if this loving God existed, innocent people should suffer the way they do. I like to drink, so if my end should come from a hepato-cellular carcinoma then hey, I've known what the deal is all along. But the 4 year old boy who dies of leukaemia for example? No, I just can't accept that a God who supposedly loved that child and loved his parents would allow that.

Urethra Franklin said:

I feel I've been given many signs that God doesn't exist.
For example, when you work in medicine as I do, you see suffering on a daily basis and you just think, 'No. No reasonable, merciful God would have done this.'

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God isn't "merciful" in a modern sense of the word. Honestly...death is never merciful. Imagine how horrible death would be for us humans if we weren't living in this modern world.

But let me ask you. Can you explain to me what true joy is? Happiness? Pure bliss? Can you explain that if I don't understand what pain is? Suffering? Would it really be pure bliss if I didn't know anything painful? What is the point of life without death?

Goshin said:

Well... yes, I have.



However, I advise caution about seeing relatively commonplace things as signs too readily... it is easy to fool yourself, especially when you WANT a sign...


When God is pointing the way, He will prove the path if you keep your eyes open... but maintain a healthy SELF -doubt about your ability to know His will...

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This is excellent advice, if you think God is pushing you in a direction, He will provide the way, the means, and the circumstances, and there won't be any mistake about it.

From Pope's Essay on Man:

All nature is but art, unknown to thee;

All chance, direction, which thou canst not see;

All discord, harmony, not understood;

All partial evil, universal good:

And, spite of pride, in erring reason's spite,

One truth is clear, Whatever is, is right.

stonewall50 said:

Honestly...death is never merciful.

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Honestly...it can be in some cases, when that person is suffering appalling symptoms, death can be a release. A well managed terminal case, with adequate pain killers and anxiolitics, who's had time to sort out their affairs and is surrounded by the ones they love - yes, a well managed death can be a merciful, beautiful thing.

stonewall50 said:

But let me ask you. Can you explain to me what true joy is? Happiness? Pure bliss? Can you explain that if I don't understand what pain is? Suffering? Would it really be pure bliss if I didn't know anything painful?

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I don't believe happiness is a permanent state, for anybody. Happiness is fleeting; it's moments of pleasure: a good meal shared with friends, good sex, an absorbing book, that magic moment when you get good exam results, a good cognac, an interesting conversation, falling in love, etc. Nobody is permanantly happy. And no, I don't believe these precious gifts come from any God. Each to their own.

I never claimed human beings should never know pain. I said that if a "caring" God allows innocent people to endure a horror such as Huntigdon's Chorea or allow a child to die of leukaemia, I personally don't get it. If others do good luck to them, but I'm not buying it.

stonewall50 said:

What is the point of life without death?

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Did I ever suggest we could or should have life without death?

As to the point of life, I'm currently having a good time, and that's point enough for me.

nota bene said:

From Pope's Essay on Man:

All nature is but art, unknown to thee;

All chance, direction, which thou canst not see;

All discord, harmony, not understood;

All partial evil, universal good:

And, spite of pride, in erring reason's spite,

One truth is clear, Whatever is, is right.

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An original poem by Susan Polis Schutz? I think I got that birthday card once. Hallmark have gone off recently.

Urethra Franklin said:

An original poem by Susan Polis Schutz? I think I got that birthday card once. Hallmark have gone off recently.

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It have?! :lamo

I’m not sure what is sadder, your eagerness to snark causing you to miss my attribution or your not appreciating the difference between the writing of one of the truly great British poets/satirists and that of a contemporary poetaster.

But kudos for knowing who Susan Polis Schutz is; I had to Google. You must be quite the fan-girl.

nota bene said:

It have?! :lamo

I’m not sure what is sadder, your eagerness to snark causing you to miss my attribution or your not appreciating the difference between the writing of one of the truly great British poets/satirists and that of a contemporary poetaster.

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Pope had a lot going for him. Not least he lived in a Blue Plaqued building in London which in our times is The Mawson Arms - an extremely nice pub. Anybody with a pub connection gets my vote. As an ex-Londoner and frequent visitor since leaving, I've spent a lot of drinking time in there. In England you can be a bar floozy with a touch of culture. The UK is a lovely country for that - you can get drunk in beautiful, historic surroundings. No other country quite has that same pub feeling, except maybe Ireland.

POPE, Alexander (1688-1744) | English Heritage

nota bene said:

But kudos for knowing who Susan Polis Schutz is; I had to Google. You must be quite the fan-girl.

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No. I've just received a lot of cr@p birthday cards over the years.

stonewall50 said:

Interesting thought though huh? Even if you don't believe...isn't it odd that we would develop to see patterns of things when they aren't there?

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It's a survival characteristic. See a friend eat a berry,and then die. Must have been the berry! It's known as "patternicity' ..

And here is an article about it Patternicity: Finding Meaningful Patterns in Meaningless Noise - Scientific American