Sensing God part 2 [W:65]

jet57 · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

celticwar17 said:
woah....I have no idea what you are trying to say... The only thing I can get from that is that you just admit you don't know things and you are trying to project you not knowing things onto others..

Are you actually asking questions?
"What is God?" -I don't know... I could have a guess, but I have no idea.
"Got an answer?"- Not one that I can say is true in all confidence
"What if God said "hello" to you?"-It would probably scare me and I would try to see if I was either crazy or someone is trying to mess with me
"Would you question it?"-Yes, but maybe they could convince me?
"Would you challenge it?"-Yes
"Would you drink it off?"-No?
I would hope he did something more than just say hello though... because a lot of people do that, and not just him in this case...

"A brown rock is only a brown rock because WE say it is. " Yes, we use language to explain phenomena. When we see a rock that bounces off a certain light spectrum that is similar in pattern to other things, we eventually give that spectrum a name... and in the rocks case, it is brown.

"What does a rabbit think it is?"A rabbit probably doesn't care, but assuming they have color vision, the rabbit would be able to notice similar patterns in his point of view... but since a rabbit does not have language nor the mental capacity to care he doesn't call it brown.

"How do you show what's in our brain BTW? Pictures? Words?" We use language and imagery. Scientist can do further things like track the electrical signals and such.

Hi, I came back to look a t your post, and I'm sure it seemed that I just brushed you off and I want to apologize for that, so here;s some response to your questions.

What am I supposed to know? It’s not about a dogma or any theology. Nor can one person’s experience be compared to another’s in the context of spiritual or religious knowledge. It can’t work like that. That’s a strange statement for you to make.

As for the question for instance: ‘what is God?’ Who does know? At least enough to tell someone else that what they sense as God is not correct. As for having an answer: you have that. The questions that I asked are more rhetorical and aimed at trying to answer the obvious, only to find that it’s not as obvious and one might think. Life is personal thing and is solely based on what your on perceptions are.

RAMOSS · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

tosca1 said:
Your questions remind me of the serpent's crafty tactic in sowing the seeds of doubt and confusion in Eve.
It's poised as a seemingly rational, and innocent question. Casting doubt and confusion are powerful means to erode one's faith.

Genesis 3
3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

Of course, Satan is a reality to Christians. He can make use of anything, or anyone. Even Peter was unwittingly used by Satan.

Without God, we are powerless. Hence this advice must be taken seriously:

Eph 6
The Armor of God

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.

12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities,
against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

AH yes.. you try to bring the Christian misinterpretation of the story of Adam and Eve to excuse the fact you can not show others that your experience is actually God. That is a diversionary tactic.

tosca1 · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

RAMOSS said:
AH yes.. you try to bring the Christian misinterpretation of the story of Adam and Eve to excuse the fact you can not show others that your experience is actually God. That is a diversionary tactic.

With all the rational evidences provided by science and Philosophy that point to the possibility of God's existence, and that's not counting the Bible and millions of testimonies from people all over the world - a lot of whom have been former atheists btw ......

....... why couldn't it be God?

RAMOSS · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

tosca1 said:
With all the rational evidences provided by science and Philosophy that point to the possibility of God's existence, and that's not counting the Bible and millions of testimonies from people all over the world - a lot of whom have been former atheists btw ......

....... why couldn't it be God?

What is more important is 'other than the logical fallacy of argument from personal believe, why should it be God?'

jet57 · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

RAMOSS said:
AH yes.. you try to bring the Christian misinterpretation of the story of Adam and Eve to excuse the fact you can not show others that your experience is actually God. That is a diversionary tactic.

I'm hoping that my thread doesn't get turned into a religious opinion battle: that would be bad.

My question to you is; exactly what difficulty are you having with the concept of sensing God, and moreover, why does it make you angry?

jet57 · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

RAMOSS said:
What is more important is 'other than the logical fallacy of argument from personal believe, why should it be God?'

"God", like "the brown rock" is just a label for contextualizing a concept that appears to be a reality.

tosca1 · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

RAMOSS said:
What is more important is 'other than the logical fallacy of argument from personal believe, why should it be God?'

Try again.

What's your rational reason why -

with all the logical evidences provided by science and Philosophy that God exists -

it couldn't be God?

RAMOSS · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

jet57 said:
I'm hoping that my thread doesn't get turned into a religious opinion battle: that would be bad.

My question to you is; exactly what difficulty are you having with the concept of sensing God, and moreover, why does it make you angry?

Why do you think I am angry?? Because I don't agree with you? Hardly. I am puzzled as to why someone would claim an emotional experience is sensing God. So far, the main question I have from people describing this experience goes unanswered, and when I am totally fascinated at the defensive reaction and the diversionary tactics being used to avoid answering it.

I still want to know 'How can you tell that what you are experiencing exists outside of yourself, rather than that is your interpretation of an emotional feeling.' I would think the 'sense of personality' is part of an emotional feeling.

RAMOSS · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

jet57 said:
"God", like "the brown rock" is just a label for contextualizing a concept that appears to be a reality.

There is a difference. I can point to a brown rock and show others. I can use instruments to show that the light refracting off the rock corrosponds to a certain wavelength of light, that most people associate as being 'brown'. I can pick up a rock, and show other people that it exists.

When it comes to God, I have people describing what sounds like an emotional reaction. I do not see independent verification that this is anything but an internal emotional experience. A brown rock, because it can be shown to others is a 'public experience'. These experience of God is a private experience. How can you show that what you feel and interpret as being God is in fact , God, and not merely a state that your brain goes into for some reason, without there being an external sensing?

tosca1 · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

RAMOSS said:
Why do you think I am angry?? Because I don't agree with you? Hardly. I am puzzled as to why someone would claim an emotional experience is sensing God. So far, the main question I have from people describing this experience goes unanswered, and when I am totally fascinated at the defensive reaction and the diversionary tactics being used to avoid answering it.

I still want to know 'How can you tell that what you are experiencing exists outside of yourself, rather than that is your interpretation of an emotional feeling.'

When it comes to God, I have people describing what sounds like an emotional reaction. I do not see independent verification that this is anything but an internal emotional experience. A brown rock, because it can be shown to others is a 'public experience'. These experience of God is a private experience. How can you show that what you feel and interpret as being God is in fact , God, and not merely a state that your brain goes into for some reason, without there being an external sensing?

Then explain why -

with all the logical evidences provided by science and Philosophy that God exists -

it couldn't be God?

I would think the 'sense of personality' is part of an emotional feeling.

What "you think," isn't good enough! That's not a rational response to the logical argument I've provided.
I, on the other hand, can say with justified conviction that your view is simply, "your interpretation of an emotional feeling."

It's just a knee-jerk reaction - since you've got no logical reason to give why our God-experience(s) couldn't have been from God.

These experience of God is a private experience.

Exactly!

There seems to be a pattern here with you. Everything you accuse us of, or criticize us with, seems to boomerang neatly in your face. :lol:

Ignorance about the Old Testament. Projection. Rationalization. Confirmation bias. And now, this. :mrgreen:

RAMOSS · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

tosca1 said:
Try again.

What's your rational reason why -

with all the logical evidences provided by science and Philosophy that God exists -

it couldn't be God?

"Logical arguments" in philosophy is not evidence. Quite often, it isn't even rational, nor can it be shown to be sound. Do you understand the difference between an argument that is valid, and an argument that is sound?

RAMOSS · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

tosca1 said:
Then explain why -

with all the logical evidences provided by science and Philosophy that God exists -

it couldn't be God?

What "you think," isn't good enough! That's not a rational response to the logical argument I've provided.
I, on the other hand, can say with justified conviction that your view is simply, "your interpretation of an emotional feeling."

It's just a knee-jerk reaction - since you've got no logical reason to give why our God-experience(s) couldn't have been from God.

Exactly!

There seems to be a pattern here with you. Everything you accuse us of, or criticize us with, seems to boomerang neatly in your face. :lol:

Ignorance about the Old Testament. Projection. Rationalization. Confirmation bias. And now, this. :mrgreen:

Oh the contrary.. if something is 'private' it means it is totally subjective, and could very well be only conceptual in nature.

Can you show that 'God' is more than conceptual?

ANd, it is you that is ignorant of the Jewish scriptures, and you do not understand the difference between what the Jewish scriptures are and the old testament.

Risky Thicket · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

RAMOSS said:
There is a difference. I can point to a brown rock and show others. I can use instruments to show that the light refracting off the rock corrosponds to a certain wavelength of light, that most people associate as being 'brown'. I can pick up a rock, and show other people that it exists.

When it comes to God, I have people describing what sounds like an emotional reaction. I do not see independent verification that this is anything but an internal emotional experience. A brown rock, because it can be shown to others is a 'public experience'. These experience of God is a private experience. How can you show that what you feel and interpret as being God is in fact , God, and not merely a state that your brain goes into for some reason, without there being an external sensing?

Excellent points, Ramoss. In my case I have found it impossible to explain. Also, it wasn't a religious experience, it was a spiritual one.

Really, when you think about it all religion is is an organized effort to explain the spiritual. Beyond that religion is primarily affectation. It's a matter of choice and relatively harmless if we could all stop hating each other in the name of searching for eternal love. There is no one special way. That also means pretty much anyway is as good as another. Everyone is looking for the same thing.

My experience wasn't emotional. It wasn't emotional before, during or after. As I mentioned earlier the experience transcended all of that, everything. It wasn't a vision. There was no special light, no angel, no opening of the heavens, no one talked to me. It was not an emotion. It was not an understanding or an aha moment. It was knowing. I didn't slap my forehead and say "Now I get it, we are one." I knew it. One, seamless, timeless. There was no religion, no heaven or hell. At the moment One was all there was.

That's the best I can do to describe it. I realize that it is not very helpful. As the saying goes, "Many paths, one destination". No matter what path you choose or if you choose no path at all it doesn't really. Take whatever path makes you comfortable. It seems we progress faster if we follow the golden rule in all ways.

In the meantime if I find a shortcut I'll let you know.

jet57 · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

RAMOSS said:
Why do you think I am angry?? Because I don't agree with you? Hardly. I am puzzled as to why someone would claim an emotional experience is sensing God. So far, the main question I have from people describing this experience goes unanswered, and when I am totally fascinated at the defensive reaction and the diversionary tactics being used to avoid answering it.

I still want to know 'How can you tell that what you are experiencing exists outside of yourself, rather than that is your interpretation of an emotional feeling.' I would think the 'sense of personality' is part of an emotional feeling.

Your second question first: How do I know? Because that's how it feels, then the connection happens: if you lose your eyes and have someone move their flattened out hand toward your face, you'll feel it come closer...

First question: "emotion" as you put it doesn't enter into the experience: emotion comes after - trust me. And I don't see defensiveness in others over your questions as much as I see a confounding based upon your lineal view of a profound experience that people obviously share and you don't.

Like I said very clearly at least once before: science cannot prove that love exists either, but we all know it's there; including you: you must have had a puppy at some point in your life. So for you then, what bio-chemical reaction was going on that "created" that emotional experience that you cannot accurately articulate to other people? And once you've defined the chemical chain reaction and the properties that created "the effect", you must then come to the conclusion that it was not love at all. But - that's what you felt, so - it had to be.... No: that's not real...

Zyphlin · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

Moderator's Warning:

Folks, the question in the OP is pretty clear.

If you want to have a debate about whether or not people can "prove" that what they feel is god or demanding that of them, take it to another section. This section isn't for debating and arguing whether or not the notion of a god can or can not exist or questioning the very notion of faith. If a poster wants to continue to derail the thread in this direction then points and a removal will be coming

tosca1 · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

RAMOSS said:
"Logical arguments" in philosophy is not evidence. Quite often, it isn't even rational, nor can it be shown to be sound. Do you understand the difference between an argument that is valid, and an argument that is sound?

The experience of God is personal in the cases that were shown here by those who believe in the experience.

If you're pointing out that those who'd actually had the experience wouldn't know - how much more if you haven't even had that experience? Who are you to say that what we've had isn't sensing God?

At least, we have the basis of knowing that it was of God (because of the kind of experience we've had).
YOU DON'T.

RAMOSS · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

jet57 said:
Your second question first: How do I know? Because that's how it feels, then the connection happens: if you lose your eyes and have someone move their flattened out hand toward your face, you'll feel it come closer...

First question: "emotion" as you put it doesn't enter into the experience: emotion comes after - trust me. And I don't see defensiveness in others over your questions as much as I see a confounding based upon your lineal view of a profound experience that people obviously share and you don't.

Like I said very clearly at least once before: science cannot prove that love exists either, but we all know it's there; including you: you must have had a puppy at some point in your life. So for you then, what bio-chemical reaction was going on that "created" that emotional experience that you cannot accurately articulate to other people? And once you've defined the chemical chain reaction and the properties that created "the effect", you must then come to the conclusion that it was not love at all. But - that's what you felt, so - it had to be.... No: that's not real...

How is the question 'how do you know' angry?? It is very analytical, and unemotional. I find that I can accurately articulate my experiences. It is a matter of 'is the sense you have of God or spirutal or whatever you want to call it something that is triggered by an external entity, or is it entirely from within yourself'? What is the experience? What is the cause of this experience, and how can you show/demonstrate what the cause is'. You can say 'I believe it was God , and it has served as the basis of my faith', but that is merely taking on faith that your experience is God. But, that puts it entirely into personal testimony.

Now, I will have to say that this is the first response that I got that approached the question honestly, and with sincerity. Thank you very much. While I still didn't quite get the kind of information about it that I was looking for, I am not sure that information actually exists...

It sounds to me like this is a state Hindu's achieve in samadhi

tosca1 · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

RAMOSS said:
It sounds to me like this is a state Hindu's achieve in samadhi

I'm not comparing religions here....but I have to ask you, how would you know that?
What God-experience or supernatural experience have you had in your life to make you an expert on this?

You seem to have put on the "consultant" cap. :lol:

tosca1 · Mar 1, 2015

Re: Sensing God part 2

RAMOSS said:
Oh the contrary.. if something is 'private' it means it is totally subjective, and could very well be only conceptual in nature.

Baloney!

'How can you tell that what you are experiencing exists outside of yourself,

From my experience, it was the sudden SURGE of JOY.
It suddenly came upon me. There was no special reason to feel joyful about, yet it suddenly filled my heart -
my heart literally filled to bursting! That's how it felt. Swelling to the point of bursting.

There was no fear of any heart attack or health problems when it happened - I was just so incredibly joyful!
I was filled with such great happiness - if that can be described it in a more accurate way. And it happened right after my offering to God.

When it subsided, I sat down. I was overwhelmed I guess of what had just happened. In awe. Yet I felt so at peace. So relaxed. There was no worry or concern at all. And I wanted to relive it again while it was still fresh.

So, where did all that come from? Why wouldn't I connect it with my act of offering, and God?

Sensing God part 2 [W:65]

Sewer Rat