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Does anyone have a understanding of these-Matt 24:3,37, 1Cor 15;23-24?
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kjw47
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This is the reality of it.
Rev 6--the 1st ride of the white horse=righteous war--the war in heaven--Jesus gets his crown( Michael rode that ride)because satan and his angels were defeated and cast to the vicinity of the earth, never allowed back in heaven--Gods kingdom rule begins in heaven-- many events occur between that and the 2nd ride of the white horse--making it the Parousia--only Jesus anointed teachers saw it occur.
The 2nd ride of the white horse( righteous war) is Jesus as Gods appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15) leading his armies to earth to rid it of wickedness and cast satan and his angels into the abyss( no more satan influence for 1000 years. Gods kingdom rule established on earth-- the great multitude of other sheep are brought through this on earth-Prov 2:21-22--Matt 24:22)--then a resurrection to the earth--over the 1000 years all brought back to being sinless( still have free will) but then satan is loosed for a little while and some follow him into the lake of fire( second death-eternal destruction)
All eyes will witness the 2nd ride. after, Gods kingdom will rule forever( Daniel 2:44) no more satan influences ever.
Rev 6--the 1st ride of the white horse=righteous war--the war in heaven--Jesus gets his crown( Michael rode that ride)because satan and his angels were defeated and cast to the vicinity of the earth, never allowed back in heaven--Gods kingdom rule begins in heaven-- many events occur between that and the 2nd ride of the white horse--making it the Parousia--only Jesus anointed teachers saw it occur.
The 2nd ride of the white horse( righteous war) is Jesus as Gods appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15) leading his armies to earth to rid it of wickedness and cast satan and his angels into the abyss( no more satan influence for 1000 years. Gods kingdom rule established on earth-- the great multitude of other sheep are brought through this on earth-Prov 2:21-22--Matt 24:22)--then a resurrection to the earth--over the 1000 years all brought back to being sinless( still have free will) but then satan is loosed for a little while and some follow him into the lake of fire( second death-eternal destruction)
All eyes will witness the 2nd ride. after, Gods kingdom will rule forever( Daniel 2:44) no more satan influences ever.
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Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. KJV.
The Bible tells in Revelations 17:15 that "water" is a metaphor which "are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."
So if we take the scriptures for what it says then when Jesus returns it will be on top of a multitude of people - as was in the days of Noah.
As such it means that there will be a huge conversion where humanity will turn to God in massive waves and everyone gets SAVED.
Link = 1 Corinthians 15:21-26
What this text is saying is that every person throughout history will be resurrected and SAVED and no one left out or lost.
kjw47
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That's strange--Gods word clearly teaches that after satan is loosed--some follow him into the lake of fire. I was discussing the events of rev 6--the first ride of the white horse--the only teachers I ever found who knew what it was were the JW teachers--Why do you think that is?
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The "lake of fire" means a place of cleaning and purification, as in 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." So the person is being "SAVED" by the "FIRE" and not hurt by it.
The "lake of fire" is a way of cleaning and purifying the persons, and it is not to hurt or to kill.
As such every person gets saved and not even one sinful sheep gets lost or left out.
The ultimate plan is for a universal salvation - thereby completely perfect.
Actually you titled this thread one way and then your opening post talks about some thing which is impossible to comprehend, and then your next comment goes off into never-never land.
As such I made a reply based on the thread topic - thank you - your welcome.
kjw47
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in biblical terms fire = destruction--or don't believe Jesus who taught---- Few find the road to life( eternal) because many have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to destruction--you are in error.
You actually think satan and his angels will get cleansed? or Hades and the grave can be cleansed.--they will be destroyed
Here are Jesus words at judgement to the many---Get away from me you worker of iniquity--I must confess--I never even knew you--this is final judgement.
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The thing is that I give specific reference text and quote while you make baseless claims.
The "lake of fire" means a place of cleaning and purification, as in 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." So the person is being "SAVED" by the "FIRE" and not hurt by it.
And even your claim of "destruction" is fitting when we see that the sins are destroyed and the person is saved.
And after the universal salvation then there is no reason or justification to take some vengeance or seek any reprisal against Satan the Devil as he too will be forgiven and harmless and we all need to forgive the worst of sinners.
People are lost and confused in this lifetime, but at the Judgement Day then everything will be made right for everyone.
You are adding on that last part of being the "final judgement" and your words do not come from the scriptures and that is NOT accurate.
What the Bible tells is that the Father-God loves His enemies, see Luke 6:32-36, and there is no way to get around that.
Jesus tells those to get away and Jesus never knew then - but the Father-God is "merciful" even to His enemies.
And "enemies" does not mean friends who use to be enemies, and does not mean enemies that repent or do right, as loving enemies means that they are active enemies, see DEFINITION.
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This is not correct. I will show you way.
very first verse.
Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals
so we have to identify who the lamb is. of course the lamb is Christ Jesus.
“Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.
so why would Jesus give himself a Crown? ol yea he wouldn't. he already has the Crown as he is king of kings and lord of lords.
So the white rider is not Jesus but another angelic being sent to punish the earth.
this is common misconception by people.
Christ will come back on a white horse but this is not in as Christ is the one that opened the seal to call the white rider to being with.
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No Satan will never repent and Revelation says so.
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
proves that not all will be saved. there is no such thing as universal salvation of all. that is simply a distortion and lie from the pit of hell.
pretty much the same type of lie that Satan told eve.
What you won't die.
What God won't send you to the lake of fire. yet the bible says otherwise.
don't know where you are getting this but this is 100% false.
Yep that is why CHrist was sent.
yep for even while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. The only way to the Father is Through Christ. Without Christ there is no salvation.
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You miss the BIGGER point that Satan does not need to repent because God loves His enemies, see Luke 6:32-36
If Satan was to repent then he would not be an enemy, as God has mercy on His ENEMIES, see above link.
The Apostle Paul tells us that "death" is a metaphor meaning spiritual death and dead to Christ, which means being SAVED, see Romans 6:6-11. It says this plain and clear, see quotes = "that the body of sin might be destroyed" and "he that is dead is freed from sin" and "the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him" and "died unto sin" and "be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ" KJV.
Add that to this = The "lake of fire" means a place of cleaning and purification, as in 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." So the person is being "SAVED" by the "FIRE" and not hurt by it.
Death in the lake of fire means salvation unto God.
Going to the lake of fire is to clean and purify and then the sins are destroyed and the person becomes dead to sin.
This is what the Bible tells, and it tells it more so in many other places too.
Yes, but Jesus died for us all, so all us sinners are to be SAVED.
If any sinner is left out or lost then Jesus sacrifice would have been incomplete and imperfect and thereby a failure.
CrabCake
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My guess would be that it is because you don't read enough non-JW authors.
Either that or because you have pre-determined that the JW interpretation is correct and thus have rejected all other interpretations.
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wow what a lie straight from the pit of hell. Yep God sent Christ to attone for the sin of man that man cannot attone himself. in that God is merciful.
2 Thessalonians 1
5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
Satan won't repent because he hates everything that God and the Trinity stand for.
what kind of bible are you using because that is not what the bible says about death. Death has several meanings yes but it is based on the context of which it is written.
In the verses that you are talking about and I know them well Paul is saying that as a Christian we are to be dead to the world and what the world has to offer.
that we are to put off the old man and take on the new one.
however death in the bible or at least in that time meant a separation of things.
Death in the book of revelation means total and utter separation from God.
no it doesn't there is nothing biblical about this.
wrong Jesus said I am the way the truth and the light and not man comes unto the father but through me. IE the lake of fire will not save you only Jesus Christ can save you.
Only if you distort the bible to say something it doesn't say the book of revelation is very clear.
Wrong. you are only saved if you accept Christ as your savior. you are not saved just because Christ died.
For many will come in that day saying Lord Lord we did all of these works. I will say to them get thee away from me you workers of inquity for I never knew you.
Nope not at all. For the bible even says that not all will be saved.
Broad is the way that leads to destruction but narrow is the way to salvation and there are few that find it.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Death that is used in this case is total separation from God and Heaven. This is where God will send all those that are not written in the book of life again showing that not everyone will be saved.
hence why what you say is a lie from Hell.
And Satan said to Eve. Thou will not surely die.
And Satan said to JP thou will not surely get sent to the lake of fire.
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The white horse from the seals is not CHrist. WHy? because it is Christ that is opening the seals. so why would he call himself and give himself a crown if he is already there?
the logic doesn't make any sense.
The accepted theological argument is that the white horse is some kind of angelic being.
CrabCake
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Actually, the idea that it is Jesus does find widespread support, as does the idea that it is the anti-Christ. There is no theological view on this which can be considered "accepted" in any meaningful way.
I think there are some views that are more strongly supported than others. But there clearly is not any particular view considered "accepted".
I find views that demonstrate an understanding of the genre of apocalyptic writing to be more convincing than views that seek out more literal readings.
Personally, I find arguments in favor of a preterist reading of Revelation far more compelling than those in favor of a futurist reading. I think those arguments tend to be more internally consistent and more in line with the genre of apocalyptic literature that we know this book belongs in.
Keeping in mind the genre the book is written in, there is no reason for us to believe that the horsemen have to be beings of any kind. In Daniel 7, for example, we are presented with a great beast with iron teeth that rises out of the sea, crushing and devouring all within its path. In the book of Daniel we are actually told what the beast represents, it represents not a person or a creature, but a kingdom. So, we know that within this genre of apocalytpic, things that are personified do not need to correspond to either heavenly beings or earthly beings but may be incorporeal concepts like kingdoms. I think that is precisely what the white rider represents, not a specific kingdom in this case, but empires in general, kingdoms that go out to do battle and conquer and carve up the world in the name of their flag.
1. white rider = the forces of empire and conquest
2. red rider = war
3. black rider = systems of economic injustice (notice what the voice following this rider exclaims, wheat and barley, the food required for sustenance, the subsistence of the poor, is being sold at unreasonable prices, but oil and wine, luxuries of the rich are not).
4. pale rider = death in all its forms (war is again mentioned, this time along with famine, natural causes, and accidents (in the form of being killed by wild animals).
What Revelation is saying in that chapter is not some kind of roadmap about future events, but a set up for the following chapters. It is saying: "these are the things that must happen before the end. There will be warmongering regimes, war, economic injustice, and death in all its forms. Things will get worse, before they get better."
Having said that, as previously mentioned, there really isn't an "accepted" view. My view is just my own view and, while I find it to be the most internally consistent view that makes the most sense within the biblical narrative, the historical setting within which it was written, and the genre of that type of literature, it is nevertheless just one of many views. My view is heavily influenced by Revelation for Everyone by N.T. Wright, which I highly recommend for anyone interested in understanding Revelation without jumping on the "end times" bandwagon.
As for JW views on this, I recall reading through some of their "secret*" materials once and giggling at the many mentions of the soviet union's role in the end time (this was in the early 2000's they should have, but hadn't yet updated those materials).
*Not exactly secret, just materials that were only supposed to be for members but which a member gave me access to.
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The only way you can come to this conclusion that it is Jesus is if you ignore the very first sentence in the chapter. more so if you ignore the verses and chapters before it.
John is lamenting the fact that no one is worthy to open the seals. Yet there is one that is and that is the Lamb. The Lamb is Jesus. Jesus is the one opening the seals.
So there is no way that Jesus is in the first seal since he is the one opening the seal. Also it says that the person was given a crown. Jesus already wears the crown there is no reason that he would need to be given one.
you have to see if the view makes sense. it makes no sense that the white horse or that the rider is Jesus. in fact to hold that view contradicts other verses before it.
If you look at the description of this rider on a white horse and what John describes Jesus as they are 100% different.
you can either take it is at literal or allegorical. while I think that some things are literal others are not and john is attempting to explain something that he doesn't have the
words to explain it with.
I think it speaks of both.
That could be however those sorts of things still go onto this day.
if you look at things to day they are really not getting better they are consistently getting worse.
Yea their so called prophesy's pretty much stink.
along with the rest of their translation of the bible. highly inconsistent and down right dishonest.
kjw47
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I attended many different supposed Christian religions in my day--read many other materials. But then I listened to Gods great wisdom when he handed all the key on a silver platter when he said--This is my son the beloved, in whom I am well pleased--LISTEN TO HIM.-- so I learned and applied every teaching from Jesus as best I could in every matter of life( referred to as--the way)from the way,truth and life). Then I could clearly see who his teachers are. Few bother that is the problem--- those truths are not taught in any church on earth.
Ghandi was correct when he said--I like your Jesus, but the Christians aren't like him.
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yet you don't believe in Christ you believe Michael so how can you believe in God's Son when you think he isn't God's Son but an angel.
you are kinda locked in a theological mess if you asked me.
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The eternal destruction means destruction of the sins and not the person.
The separation means separating the sins from the person and separating the sins from God while NOTHING can separate any person from their Maker.
Nothing can separate any person from God because we are all connected and dependent on God.
Satan does not need to repent.
God loves His enemies and God has mercy for everyone, see it here = Luke 6:32-36.
It means separating the sins from the people, and separating the sins of the sinners from God, but no person can ever be separated from God.
Hateful human being might throw some other person into a burning Hell and just walk away and forget about that, but God does not and can not.
The "lake of fire" is a place of purifying and cleaning so Jesus will be there leading the way.
It is true that the sinners never knew Christ, but the Father God is the one in charge and God loves His enemies and has mercy on all, so every one gets saved - Luke 6:32-36
The thing is that there are two (2) kinds of salvation.
1) People need saved in this lifetime from the evils of this life.
2) Being saved after our physical death is already paid in full so at the Judgement Day then every person gets saved.
You are just getting the 2 mixed up, in that people lost here and now will see the truth after the resurrection, as is said = On Judgement Day THEN "every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." per Romans 14:11 which is telling that every person gets salvation.
Again - that is because here-and-now people are lost and trapped in sin, and only a few make it out of the mess in this lifetime.
On the Judgement Day then every person will see and will know the truth and then every person gets the better salvation.
Death means dead to sin, see it said here = Romans 6:6-11
Death means separating the sins from the person and from God - dead to sin.
It is okay to go to the "Lake of Fire" because God is having mercy on His enemies and God is forgiving and saving everyone.
There is no justice in the view that our loving Father God is going to torture souls or kill people because those are not loving.
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Wrong and biblically wrong. I don't know what distortion of the bible you read but this is 100% wrong and even Christ himself said so.
So are you calling Christ a liar?
Distorting bible verses is not theologically sound, but it sounds good to people that don't want to follow Christ.
I told you want the verse means and it doesn't mean this. Yes they can and they will.
Sure He can and He will. At the end of time He will destroy all evil and it will be banished to the lake of fire.
Not according to scripture. it takes a great amount of biblical distortion to get here.
Only a fool believes this or a worker or someone that is a false teacher which you appear to be.
you must be a Mormon or something because no there is only 1 Salvation and no other. That is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and savior.
there is no other way of salvation.
nope not getting anything mixed up at all. you are the one that is confused. You refuse to see the open pit in front of you which is what Satan does.
The bible says nothing that everyone will be saved. In fact it says the opposite.
Nope again and only a huge distortion of the bible and what it says will anyone agree to this.
you can believe this lie all you want to and I will refute this with God's truth so that others do not fall into the same trap as you.
you have to understand the context of what is being written.
as Christians we are suppose to be dead to sin. as people we will die (that is a death). all of those not saved will die a second death as they are cast out of heaven along with satan and his followers.
Those that are not written in the lambs book of life will be permanently separated from God.
you just keep thinking that because the bible says differently.
I will continue to tell people otherwise to save their soul from hell.
this pretty much kills your theory. this is Christ Speaking to John.
5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
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Must of your comment is just your own rhetoric, but at end you put some text and in any text then I can show you where you are misguided.
The second death means death to sin.
Death does not mean any kind of separation except being separated from our sins.
And death does not (can not) mean any eternal life in pain and suffering because life is not death.
There is no Bible text which says otherwise.
The Bible declares "death" to mean death to sin - Romans 6:6-11
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nope no rhetoric at all facts. according to scripture. I even quoted the various scriptures that show you are wrong.
depends on the context in which death is being used. there are various forms of death. however death used was a separation of a things.
physical death was the separation of spirit from the body.
in the prodigal son it was the separation of son and father.
the context of revelation it is the permanent separation from God.
you are 100% wrong.
again your distortion of scripture is not an argument.
enternity is forever without end. Peoples who's name is not written in the lambs book of Life will be cast out of heaven forever. So says the bible and so says JEsus.
so are you calling Jesus a liar now?
Then you are reading only want you want to read which is very dangerous because I just posed you the verses that say otherwise.
I can post more if you like from Christs own words.
Yes and Paul is writing to the church in Rome. he is writing to other CHristians. this is where context is important.
for all those not saved the wages of sin is death. IE separation from God.
I am sorry that you can't accept the truth. a lot of people can't accept the truth of scripture.
it is easier to say that ol yea everyone goes to heaven and life is a happy go lucky place.
unfortunately that is a lie from the pit of hell and the more people that believe it end up going there.
there is no salvation outside the saving Grace of Christ.
CrabCake
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Not at all. You don't even need to read the passages in question to come to this conclusion all you have to do is look at what theologians have been writing. The fact is that the idea that this rider on the white horse is Jesus finds widespread support among theologians. I agree with you that those who support such a view are wrong. But the fact remains that that view finds widespread support.
I don't find fault with your interpretation. I find fault with your fallacious appeal to authority. The fact is that theologians have not reached a consensus on what the rider on the white horse represents but the idea that the rider is Jesus finds widespread support among theologians. Your claim that it does not and that there is an accepted view that holds that it is an angelic being is factually incorrect. There is no accepted view to begin with, and furthermore, one of the views that finds widespread support is that it is Jesus.
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then they must be reading something different.
this is john's description of Christ later.
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in[d] blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
this is nothing like the white horse mentioned in the seal. It also says that the lamb opens the seal. the Lamb is Christ.
I could careless what a theologian things when he is wrong. it is clear as day that the rider in the seal is not Christ.
whoever says it is. is not correct is wrong and needs to be corrected.
why follow a widespread view that is wrong? it makes no sense to me.
I will follow what the bible says vs what man says.
the bible says that it is Christ opening the seals. He wouldn't call himself and he wouldn't give himself a crown when he already has many.
this logically makes no sense to anyone that looks at it including theologians.
so whoever is says that the white horse is Christ needs to go back and read again.
CrabCake
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Then why did you bring it up? You are the one who made a false claim about there being some kind of "accepted" theological position on this issue. I merely corrected your false claim. There is no accepted position and among the positions that find the most widespread support is the position that the rider is Jesus. If you don't think what theologians have to say matters, why did you bring it up?
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no I didn't I said that the white rider in the book of revelation was not Christ. the OP said that it was I am simply correcting his error.
I was correcting an assertion made by someone else.
I never made a false claim on anything.
the wide spread support is wrong and the chapter and verse prove it.
in fact there is less and less support for this.
because someone else made an incorrect statement and I was fixing that statement that is the whole point of a discussion.