Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. KJV.Does anyone have a understanding of these-Matt 24:3,37, 1Cor 15;23-24?
Link = 1 Corinthians 15:21-26Does anyone have a understanding of these-Matt 24:3,37, 1Cor 15;23-24?
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. KJV.
The Bible tells in Revelations 17:15 that "water" is a metaphor which "are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."
So if we take the scriptures for what it says then when Jesus returns it will be on top of a multitude of people - as was in the days of Noah.
As such it means that there will be a huge conversion where humanity will turn to God in massive waves and everyone gets SAVED.
Link = 1 Corinthians 15:21-26
What this text is saying is that every person throughout history will be resurrected and SAVED and no one left out or lost.
The "lake of fire" means a place of cleaning and purification, as in 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." So the person is being "SAVED" by the "FIRE" and not hurt by it.That's strange--Gods word clearly teaches that after satan is loosed--some follow him into the lake of fire.
Actually you titled this thread one way and then your opening post talks about some thing which is impossible to comprehend, and then your next comment goes off into never-never land.I was discussing the events of rev 6--the first ride of the white horse--the only teachers I ever found who knew what it was were the JW teachers--Why do you think that is?
The "lake of fire" means a place of cleaning and purification, as in 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." So the person is being "SAVED" by the "FIRE" and not hurt by it.
The "lake of fire" is a way of cleaning and purifying the persons, and it is not to hurt or to kill.
As such every person gets saved and not even one sinful sheep gets lost or left out.
The ultimate plan is for a universal salvation - thereby completely perfect.
Actually you titled this thread one way and then your opening post talks about some thing which is impossible to comprehend, and then your next comment goes off into never-never land.
As such I made a reply based on the thread topic - thank you - your welcome.
The thing is that I give specific reference text and quote while you make baseless claims.in biblical terms fire = destruction--or don't believe Jesus who taught---- Few find the road to life( eternal) because many have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to destruction--you are in error.
You actually think satan and his angels will get cleansed? or Hades and the grave can be cleansed.--they will be destroyed
You are adding on that last part of being the "final judgement" and your words do not come from the scriptures and that is NOT accurate.Here are Jesus words at judgement to the many---Get away from me you worker of iniquity--I must confess--I never even knew you--this is final judgement.
This is the reality of it.
Rev 6--the 1st ride of the white horse=righteous war--the war in heaven--Jesus gets his crown( Michael rode that ride)because satan and his angels were defeated and cast to the vicinity of the earth, never allowed back in heaven--Gods kingdom rule begins in heaven-- many events occur between that and the 2nd ride of the white horse--making it the Parousia--only Jesus anointed teachers saw it occur.
The thing is that I give specific reference text and quote while you make baseless claims.
The "lake of fire" means a place of cleaning and purification, as in 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." So the person is being "SAVED" by the "FIRE" and not hurt by it.
And even your claim of "destruction" is fitting when we see that the sins are destroyed and the person is saved.
And after the universal salvation then there is no reason or justification to take some vengeance or seek any reprisal against Satan the Devil as he too will be forgiven and harmless and we all need to forgive the worst of sinners.
don't know where you are getting this but this is 100% false.People are lost and confused in this lifetime, but at the Judgement Day then everything will be made right for everyone.
What the Bible tells is that the Father-God loves His enemies, see Luke 6:32-36, and there is no way to get around that.
yep for even while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. The only way to the Father is Through Christ. Without Christ there is no salvation.Jesus tells those to get away and Jesus never knew then - but the Father-God is "merciful" even to His enemies.
You miss the BIGGER point that Satan does not need to repent because God loves His enemies, see Luke 6:32-36No Satan will never repent and Revelation says so.
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Going to the lake of fire is to clean and purify and then the sins are destroyed and the person becomes dead to sin.What you won't die.
What God won't send you to the lake of fire. yet the bible says otherwise.
Yes, but Jesus died for us all, so all us sinners are to be SAVED.yep for even while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. The only way to the Father is Through Christ. Without Christ there is no salvation.
the first ride of the white horse--the only teachers I ever found who knew what it was were the JW teachers--Why do you think that is?
You miss the BIGGER point that Satan does not need to repent because God loves His enemies, see Luke 6:32-36
If Satan was to repent then he would not be an enemy, as God has mercy on His ENEMIES, see above link.
The Apostle Paul tells us that "death" is a metaphor meaning spiritual death and dead to Christ, which means being SAVED, see
Add that to this = The "lake of fire" means a place of cleaning and purification, as in 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." So the person is being "SAVED" by the "FIRE" and not hurt by it.
no it doesn't there is nothing biblical about this.Death in the lake of fire means salvation unto God.
Going to the lake of fire is to clean and purify and then the sins are destroyed and the person becomes dead to sin.
Only if you distort the bible to say something it doesn't say the book of revelation is very clear.This is what the Bible tells, and it tells it more so in many other places too.
Yes, but Jesus died for us all, so all us sinners are to be SAVED.
Nope not at all. For the bible even says that not all will be saved.If any sinner is left out or lost then Jesus sacrifice would have been incomplete and imperfect and thereby a failure.
My guess would be that it is because you don't read enough non-JW authors.
Either that or because you have pre-determined that the JW interpretation is correct and thus have rejected all other interpretations.
The white horse from the seals is not CHrist. WHy? because it is Christ that is opening the seals. so why would he call himself and give himself a crown if he is already there?
the logic doesn't make any sense.
The accepted theological argument is that the white horse is some kind of angelic being.
Actually, the idea that it is Jesus does find widespread support, as does the idea that it is the anti-Christ. There is no theological view on this which can be considered "accepted" in any meaningful way.
you have to see if the view makes sense. it makes no sense that the white horse or that the rider is Jesus. in fact to hold that view contradicts other verses before it.I think there are some views that are more strongly supported than others. But there clearly is not any particular view considered "accepted".
you can either take it is at literal or allegorical. while I think that some things are literal others are not and john is attempting to explain something that he doesn't have theI find views that demonstrate an understanding of the genre of apocalyptic writing to be more convincing than views that seek out more literal readings.
Personally, I find arguments in favor of a preterist reading of Revelation far more compelling than those in favor of a futurist reading. I think those arguments tend to be more internally consistent and more in line with the genre of apocalyptic literature that we know this book belongs in.
Keeping in mind the genre the book is written in, there is no reason for us to believe that the horsemen have to be beings of any kind. In Daniel 7, for example, we are presented with a great beast with iron teeth that rises out of the sea, crushing and devouring all within its path. In the book of Daniel we are actually told what the beast represents, it represents not a person or a creature, but a kingdom. So, we know that within this genre of apocalytpic, things that are personified do not need to correspond to either heavenly beings or earthly beings but may be incorporeal concepts like kingdoms. I think that is precisely what the white rider represents, not a specific kingdom in this case, but empires in general, kingdoms that go out to do battle and conquer and carve up the world in the name of their flag.
1. white rider = the forces of empire and conquest
2. red rider = war
3. black rider = systems of economic injustice (notice what the voice following this rider exclaims, wheat and barley, the food required for sustenance, the subsistence of the poor, is being sold at unreasonable prices, but oil and wine, luxuries of the rich are not).
4. pale rider = death in all its forms (war is again mentioned, this time along with famine, natural causes, and accidents (in the form of being killed by wild animals).
What Revelation is saying in that chapter is not some kind of roadmap about future events, but a set up for the following chapters. It is saying: "these are the things that must happen before the end. There will be warmongering regimes, war, economic injustice, and death in all its forms. Things will get worse, before they get better."
Having said that, as previously mentioned, there really isn't an "accepted" view. My view is just my own view and, while I find it to be the most internally consistent view that makes the most sense within the biblical narrative, the historical setting within which it was written, and the genre of that type of literature, it is nevertheless just one of many views. My view is heavily influenced by Revelation for Everyone by N.T. Wright, which I highly recommend for anyone interested in understanding Revelation without jumping on the "end times" bandwagon.
As for JW views on this, I recall reading through some of their "secret*" materials once and giggling at the many mentions of the soviet union's role in the end time (this was in the early 2000's they should have, but hadn't yet updated those materials).
*Not exactly secret, just materials that were only supposed to be for members but which a member gave me access to.
My guess would be that it is because you don't read enough non-JW authors.
Either that or because you have pre-determined that the JW interpretation is correct and thus have rejected all other interpretations.
I attended many different supposed Christian religions in my day--read many other materials. But then I listened to Gods great wisdom when he handed all the key on a silver platter when he said--This is my son the beloved, in whom I am well pleased--LISTEN TO HIM.-- so I learned and applied every teaching from Jesus as best I could in every matter of life( referred to as--the way)from the way,truth and life). Then I could clearly see who his teachers are. Few bother that is the problem--- those truths are not taught in any church on earth.
Ghandi was correct when he said--I like your Jesus, but the Christians aren't like him.
The eternal destruction means destruction of the sins and not the person.wow what a lie straight from the pit of hell. Yep God sent Christ to attone for the sin of man that man cannot attone himself. in that God is merciful.
2 Thessalonians 1
9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Satan does not need to repent.Satan won't repent because he hates everything that God and the Trinity stand for.
It means separating the sins from the people, and separating the sins of the sinners from God, but no person can ever be separated from God.however death in the bible or at least in that time meant a separation of things.
Death in the book of revelation means total and utter separation from God.
The "lake of fire" is a place of purifying and cleaning so Jesus will be there leading the way.wrong Jesus said I am the way the truth and the light and not man comes unto the father but through me. IE the lake of fire will not save you only Jesus Christ can save you.
The thing is that there are two (2) kinds of salvation.Wrong. you are only saved if you accept Christ as your savior. you are not saved just because Christ died.
For many will come in that day saying Lord Lord we did all of these works. I will say to them get thee away from me you workers of inquity for I never knew you.
Again - that is because here-and-now people are lost and trapped in sin, and only a few make it out of the mess in this lifetime.Nope not at all. For the bible even says that not all will be saved.
Broad is the way that leads to destruction but narrow is the way to salvation and there are few that find it.
Death means dead to sin, see it said here = Romans 6:6-1114 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Death that is used in this case is total separation from God and Heaven. This is where God will send all those that are not written in the book of life again showing that not everyone will be saved.
And Satan said to Eve. Thou will not surely die.
It is okay to go to the "Lake of Fire" because God is having mercy on His enemies and God is forgiving and saving everyone.And Satan said to JP thou will not surely get sent to the lake of fire.
The eternal destruction means destruction of the sins and not the person.
The separation means separating the sins from the person and separating the sins from God while NOTHING can separate any person from their Maker.
Nothing can separate any person from God because we are all connected and dependent on God.
Distorting bible verses is not theologically sound, but it sounds good to people that don't want to follow Christ.Satan does not need to repent.
God loves His enemies and God has mercy for everyone, see it here
I told you want the verse means and it doesn't mean this. Yes they can and they will.It means separating the sins from the people, and separating the sins of the sinners from God, but no person can ever be separated from God.
Sure He can and He will. At the end of time He will destroy all evil and it will be banished to the lake of fire.Hateful human being might throw some other person into a burning Hell and just walk away and forget about that, but God does not and can not.
Not according to scripture. it takes a great amount of biblical distortion to get here.The "lake of fire" is a place of purifying and cleaning so Jesus will be there leading the way.
Only a fool believes this or a worker or someone that is a false teacher which you appear to be.It is true that the sinners never knew Christ, but the Father God is the one in charge and God loves His enemies and has mercy on all, so every one gets saved -
The thing is that there are two (2) kinds of salvation.
1) People need saved in this lifetime from the evils of this life.
2) Being saved after our physical death is already paid in full so at the Judgement Day then every person gets saved.
You are just getting the 2 mixed up, in that people lost here and now will see the truth after the resurrection, as is said = On Judgement Day THEN "every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God which is telling that every person gets salvation.
Nope again and only a huge distortion of the bible and what it says will anyone agree to this.Again - that is because here-and-now people are lost and trapped in sin, and only a few make it out of the mess in this lifetime.
you can believe this lie all you want to and I will refute this with God's truth so that others do not fall into the same trap as you.On the Judgement Day then every person will see and will know the truth and then every person gets the better salvation.
you have to understand the context of what is being written.Death means dead to sin, see it said here =
Death means separating the sins from the person and from God - dead to sin.
you just keep thinking that because the bible says differently.It is okay to go to the "Lake of Fire" because God is having mercy on His enemies and God is forgiving and saving everyone.
There is no justice in the view that our loving Father God is going to torture souls or kill people because those are not loving.
Must of your comment is just your own rhetoric, but at end you put some text and in any text then I can show you where you are misguided.this is Christ Speaking to John.
5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
nope no rhetoric at all facts. according to scripture. I even quoted the various scriptures that show you are wrong.Must of your comment is just your own rhetoric, but at end you put some text and in any text then I can show you where you are misguided.
depends on the context in which death is being used. there are various forms of death. however death used was a separation of a things.The second death means death to sin.
you are 100% wrong.Death does not mean any kind of separation except being separated from our sins.
again your distortion of scripture is not an argument.And death does not (can not) mean any eternal life in pain and suffering because life is not death.
There is no Bible text which says otherwise.
The Bible declares "death" to mean death to sin - Romans 6:6-11
The only way you can come to this conclusion that it is Jesus is if you ignore the very first sentence in the chapter.
Not at all. You don't even need to read the passages in question to come to this conclusion all you have to do is look at what theologians have been writing. The fact is that the idea that this rider on the white horse is Jesus finds widespread support among theologians. I agree with you that those who support such a view are wrong. But the fact remains that that view finds widespread support.
I don't find fault with your interpretation. I find fault with your fallacious appeal to authority. The fact is that theologians have not reached a consensus on what the rider on the white horse represents but the idea that the rider is Jesus finds widespread support among theologians. Your claim that it does not and that there is an accepted view that holds that it is an angelic being is factually incorrect. There is no accepted view to begin with, and furthermore, one of the views that finds widespread support is that it is Jesus.
I could careless what a theologian things when he is wrong.
Then why did you bring it up? You are the one who made a false claim about there being some kind of "accepted" theological position on this issue. I merely corrected your false claim. There is no accepted position and among the positions that find the most widespread support is the position that the rider is Jesus. If you don't think what theologians have to say matters, why did you bring it up?