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Does anyone have a understanding of these-Matt 24:3,37, 1Cor 15;23-24?

CrabCake said:
Then why did you bring it up? You are the one who made a false claim about there being some kind of "accepted" theological position on this issue.
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ludin said:
no I didn't
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From your post on the previous page:
ludin said:
The accepted theological argument is that the white horse is some kind of angelic being.
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CrabCake said:
From your post on the previous page:
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Because it is building more and more momentum that the white horse in the 1st seal is not Christ since it is Christ that opened the seal.
it would be illogical to say that Christ opened the seal to call himself forth to give himself a crown and a bow.

that is just illogical.

it also states that power was given to him. Christ already has all authority in heaven and earth and had it way before. so this is yet another indication that the White horse from
the seal is not Christ.
 
ludin said:
Because it is building more and more momentum that the white horse in the 1st seal is not Christ since it is Christ that opened the seal.
it would be illogical to say that Christ opened the seal to call himself forth to give himself a crown and a bow.

that is just illogical.

it also states that power was given to him. Christ already has all authority in heaven and earth and had it way before. so this is yet another indication that the White horse from
the seal is not Christ.
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Your claim was that there is an accepted theological argument.

Your claim is false.

What you are claiming now is vastly stronger than your original claim. You should have just made this claim instead of the fallacious appeal to authority you actually made originally.

Here it is again for everyone to read, a direct quote from you:
ludin said:
The accepted theological argument is that the white horse is some kind of angelic being.
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That statement is factually untrue. It is demonstrably so. It is not a matter of opinion and not up for debate, it can be proven to be factually untrue. There is no accepted theological argument. To make matters worse, one of the most popular theological arguments is the very argument you were striking out against.
 
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CrabCake said:
Your claim was that there is an accepted theological argument.

Your claim is false.

What you are claiming now is vastly stronger than your original claim. You should have just made this claim instead of the fallacious appeal to authority you actually made originally.

Here it is again for everyone to read, a direct quote from you:


That statement is factually untrue. It is demonstrably so. It is not a matter of opinion and not up for debate, it can be proven to be factually untrue. There is no accepted theological argument. To make matters worse, one of the most popular theological arguments is the very argument you were striking out against.
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yep because it is becoming the accepted theological theory behind the white horse.
the white horse is not Christ period. you don't have to accept it if you don't want to you will be wrong.

yep it is up for debate that is why it is exactly up for debate. accepted theories 30 years ago have changed.

then the theological argument is wrong it is our job as Christians to fix it or speak up about it.
the bible clearly defines that the white horse is not Christ as it is Christ that calls the white horse.
 
ludin said:
yep because it is becoming the accepted theological theory behind the white horse.
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At least you are back-peddling slightly, even if you're still lying.

Your original statement was this:
ludin said:
The accepted theological argument is that the white horse is some kind of angelic being.
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It is an untrue statement. There isn't an accepted theological argument. At least now you are backing off and saying it's "becoming" the accepted theological argument. Maybe now you can pass off your statement as being hopeful about a trend you wish to see rather than just the bold faced lie the original statement was.

I'd still like to see the evidence. Where's the evidence that this is becoming the accepted theological theory? Perhaps some surveys of leading theologians or articles describing the current state of eschathology on the matter? Surely there's some basis for why you made the claim.

Those of us who actually study theology are well aware that there is no accepted theological argument nor is any particular argument becoming accepted. Furthermore, if there were an argument that was in ascendancy right now, it would not be an argument that sees the creatures of Revelation as angelic beings since those arguments rely on a literalist reading of apocalyptic literature which is contrary to current trends in eschathology. The current trend is towards interpreting Revelation within the literary context of apocalyptic writing rather than reading it in a literalist way. Such a literalist reading is required in order to see the various beasts and horsemen as angelic beings rather than as symbolizing other things. It would seem that your view of the horseman as an angelic being is extremely unlikely to be "becoming accepted" given the trends in contemporary theology when it comes to approaching the book of Revelation.
 
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CrabCake said:
At least you are back-peddling slightly, even if you're still lying.

Your original statement was this:


It is an untrue statement. There isn't an accepted theological argument. At least now you are backing off and saying it's "becoming" the accepted theological argument. Maybe now you can pass off your statement as being hopeful about a trend you wish to see rather than just the bold faced lie the original statement was.

I'd still like to see the evidence. Where's the evidence that this is becoming the accepted theological theory? Perhaps some surveys of leading theologians or articles describing the current state of eschathology on the matter? Surely there's some basis for why you made the claim.

Those of us who actually study theology are well aware that there is no accepted theological argument nor is any particular argument becoming accepted. Furthermore, if there were an argument that was in ascendancy right now, it would not be an argument that sees the creatures of Revelation as angelic beings since those arguments rely on a literalist reading of apocalyptic literature which is contrary to current trends in eschathology. The current trend is towards interpreting Revelation within the literary context of apocalyptic writing rather than reading it in a literalist way. Such a literalist reading is required in order to see the various beasts and horsemen as angelic beings rather than as symbolizing other things. It would seem that your view of the horseman as an angelic being is extremely unlikely to be "becoming accepted" given the trends in contemporary theology when it comes to approaching the book of Revelation.
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you can call it untrue all you want to it won't make it so.
you have to prove that it is Christ.

I have already proven it isn't so far you have said nothing that refutes what I have said. other than they say so. I say they are wrong.
I am not backpeddling at all. the white horse from the seal is not Christ and I will challenge anyone that thinks it is because they are simply wrong
if they read the 1st sentence of that chapter.

so unless you have an argument which I haven't seen yet you have nothing. not sure who you are studying theology with but well they need to catch up a bit.
I have studied theology as well. Guess what the white horse from the seal isn't Christ.
 
ludin said:
you can call it untrue all you want to it won't make it so.
you have to prove that it is Christ.

I have already proven it isn't so far you have said nothing that refutes what I have said. other than they say so. I say they are wrong.
I am not backpeddling at all. the white horse from the seal is not Christ and I will challenge anyone that thinks it is because they are simply wrong
if they read the 1st sentence of that chapter.

so unless you have an argument which I haven't seen yet you have nothing. not sure who you are studying theology with but well they need to catch up a bit.
I have studied theology as well. Guess what the white horse from the seal isn't Christ.
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I haven't said it is Christ. In fact, I already gave you my view and, had you read it you would have realized that I don't believe it is Christ either. What I have said is that you lied when you said:

ludin said:
The accepted theological argument is that the white horse is some kind of angelic being.
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That was a lie. There isn't an "accepted theological argument" and if there were an argument that was becoming accepted, it wouldn't be that the white horse is some kind of angelic being. Few contemporary theologians hold the literalist views on eschathology required to make that an "accepted theological argument".
 
CrabCake said:
I haven't said it is Christ. In fact, I already gave you my view and, had you read it you would have realized that I don't believe it is Christ either. What I have said is that you lied when you said:



That was a lie. There isn't an "accepted theological argument" and if there were an argument that was becoming accepted, it wouldn't be that the white horse is some kind of angelic being. Few contemporary theologians hold the literalist views on eschathology required to make that an "accepted theological argument".
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The reference to the white horse= righteous war
 
CrabCake said:
I haven't said it is Christ. In fact, I already gave you my view and, had you read it you would have realized that I don't believe it is Christ either. What I have said is that you lied when you said:



That was a lie. There isn't an "accepted theological argument" and if there were an argument that was becoming accepted, it wouldn't be that the white horse is some kind of angelic being. Few contemporary theologians hold the literalist views on eschathology required to make that an "accepted theological argument".
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have a good day. it isn't a lie. it is an accepted theological argument. you can read about it all over the web on different biblical sites.
theological views change over time and this is one.

so have a nice day. you are trying to nitpick and have nothing to back it up with.
 
kjw47 said:
The reference to the white horse= righteous war
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that is one view of the white horse sent he is sent out to conquer.
 
ludin said:
have a good day. it isn't a lie. it is an accepted theological argument. you can read about it all over the web on different biblical sites.
theological views change over time and this is one.

so have a nice day. you are trying to nitpick and have nothing to back it up with.
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You did not claim it to be an accepted theological argument. You claimed it to be the accepted theological argument. But it isn't. There is no explenation that can be considered the accepted explanation. If there were one it is unlikely it would be one that takes a literalist view. Your claim that the accepted theological explenation is that it is an angelic being is simply a lie.

Would you like to provide evidence to back up your claim that this is the accepted theological argument?
 
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ludin said:
that is one view of the white horse sent he is sent out to conquer.
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The first ride--the war in heaven--occurred here--rev 6--the second ride is Har-mageddon--both righteous wars. The reference to white=righteous.
 
kjw47 said:
The first ride--the war in heaven--occurred here--rev 6--the second ride is Har-mageddon--both righteous wars. The reference to white=righteous.
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still not Christ though.
 
kjw47 said:
Please show us where God has appointed another king to his kingdom then.
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that isn't what the verse says. you need to
1. Read the verse.
2. Comprehend what the verse is saying.

Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer

So John sees the Lamb (which is Christ) open one of the seven seals because in the previous chapter only Christ is worthy to open the seals.
5 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”

The Lion of the tribe of Judah the Root of David is Christ.

So Christ opens the 1st seal. then one of the 4 creatures says Come.
now you have to aske yourself a question.

If the first rider to come out is CHrist how can Christ be the one opening the seal? simply not the case.
It is Christ that has summoned the First Rider. Christ already has many Crowns so he doesn't need a crown. giving a crown meant that this creature now has a power he didn't have before. Christ was already given power over heaven and earth. so he doesn't need to be given anything.

Logically the first rider cannot be Christ since it was Christ that summoned the rider to begin with.
we also see that The rider wields a bow. Christ does not wield a bow but a sword.

the first rider is another being of some kind.

I forgot you aren't allowed to think for yourself. you have to follow what the watchtower tells you or you will be thrown out.
 
ludin said:
that isn't what the verse says. you need to
1. Read the verse.
2. Comprehend what the verse is saying.

Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer

So John sees the Lamb (which is Christ) open one of the seven seals because in the previous chapter only Christ is worthy to open the seals.
5 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”

The Lion of the tribe of Judah the Root of David is Christ.

So Christ opens the 1st seal. then one of the 4 creatures says Come.
now you have to aske yourself a question.

If the first rider to come out is CHrist how can Christ be the one opening the seal? simply not the case.
It is Christ that has summoned the First Rider. Christ already has many Crowns so he doesn't need a crown. giving a crown meant that this creature now has a power he didn't have before. Christ was already given power over heaven and earth. so he doesn't need to be given anything.

Logically the first rider cannot be Christ since it was Christ that summoned the rider to begin with.
we also see that The rider wields a bow. Christ does not wield a bow but a sword.

the first rider is another being of some kind.

I forgot you aren't allowed to think for yourself. you have to follow what the watchtower tells you or you will be thrown out.
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Where does it teach Christ has many crowns???
Jesus had to be appointed king of Gods kingdom( Daniel 7:13-15) by the ancient of days( YHWH(Jehovah)--it was not his--God was king in the ot--thus if Jesus were God he already would be king, but he isn't.
 
kjw47 said:
Where does it teach Christ has many crowns???
Jesus had to be appointed king of Gods kingdom( Daniel 7:13-15) by the ancient of days( YHWH(Jehovah)--it was not his--God was king in the ot--thus if Jesus were God he already would be king, but he isn't.
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please stick to the topic.

how can Christ be the first rider if he is the one opening the seals.

it is right here in revelation when JOhn is actually describing Christ not the rider from the seal.

11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.

he doesn't need to be given a crown because he already wears many.

Jesus is God, but he is also God the Son. 1 God (YWHW if you will since Jehovah is not found anywhere in the bible) made up of 3 different natures God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Otherwise you are a polytheist which is unbiblical.

what you also fail to understand is that Jesus is the Son of Man as well and in that title God the father is his God.
 
ludin said:
please stick to the topic.

how can Christ be the first rider if he is the one opening the seals.

it is right here in revelation when JOhn is actually describing Christ not the rider from the seal.

11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.

he doesn't need to be given a crown because he already wears many.

Jesus is God, but he is also God the Son. 1 God (YWHW if you will since Jehovah is not found anywhere in the bible) made up of 3 different natures God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Otherwise you are a polytheist which is unbiblical.

what you also fail to understand is that Jesus is the Son of Man as well and in that title God the father is his God.
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It is just explaining what occurs at the war in heaven, and after with the 3 other riders. The ride doesn't take place until after the seal is opened. Jehovah is doing all of it through Jesus--that is why they are both called many things. Jesus is Gods master worker--Gods power goes through Jesus.( Acts 2:22---so like when Jehovah is called savior--he is--but as well he does it through his master worker so he is referred to savior as well.--the HS is never referred to as savior--no worship-no name--no mention of the HS in many important passages that both God and Jesus are mentioned--proving 0 equality. Gods word never teaches that God shares anything with the HS. Only with Jesus--his son-- God never called him son, until he was baptized---this is my son, the beloved in whom I am well pleased-LISTEN TO HIM. God did however say he grew especially fond of him( Jesus) at Prov 8

YES Jesus Proved faithful and true.

I am not a polytheist--stop saying that--I worship Jehovah only--I bow in obeisance to my king Jesus.( out of deep respect by learning and applying all of his truths and living by them daily to the best of my ability)
Only the Father seeks worship-John 4:22-24

I do like the fact that in your heart you cared enough to try and learn many things, the majority of Trinitarians don't know very much at all, and I respect that you have taken in knowledge, but you still have it messed up because of who you learned from. In Genesis--Jesus is the one foretold to battle satan. only Jesus. But we see Michael rides the war in heaven--he is the one who stood up for the sons of Daniel( isrealites) Daniel 12:1) by coming to earth as a mortal and laying his life down for all who truly follow him. But as Jesus has shown-Matt 7:21-23) some are not doing it right.
I know you believe I am one, and I believe you are one--so we really get no where--- we could both agree to listen to Jesus and pray to the Father for clarity.

Don't you think its kind of strange that from Moses on up until this day--every Israelite who serves the true God--serve a single being mono God named-YHWH(Jehovah) and that was the God taught to Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Peter And Jesus while they attended the synagogues--and not one of them ever refuted that--surely Jesus would have. then all of them were murdered--then Catholicism popped up 250 years later serving a trinity god.
 
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kjw47 said:
It is just explaining what occurs at the war in heaven, and after with the 3 other riders. The ride doesn't take place until after the seal is opened. Jehovah is doing all of it through Jesus--that is why they are both called many things. Jesus is Gods master worker--Gods power goes through Jesus.( Acts 2:22---so like when Jehovah is called savior--he is--but as well he does it through his master worker so he is referred to savior as well
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No it isn't. it clearly states that the Lamb opens the seals. The seals are the first series of punishments of God's wrath on the earth. it has not one thing to do with the war in heaven. The holy spirit does everything to Glory the Son. all of it's power and influence goes back to show the glory of the Son.
again JW distortion of scripture lose.

I am not a polytheist--stop saying that--I worship Jehovah only--I bow in obeisance to my king Jesus.( out of deep respect by learning and applying all of his truths and living by them daily to the best of my ability)
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Paul warns about the watchtower teachings.

4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

Isaiah 44:6 states, "I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me."
Revelation 1:17-18 which says, "Do not be fearful; I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead but look! I am living forever." (Christ talking)

Titus 2:13 says, "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."
the Holy Spirit is GOd as well.

"But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?...You have not lied to men, but to God.'"

Only the Father seeks worship-John 4:22-24
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then why were the apostles and his disciples constantly worshiping Christ? the other part is why did the angel in revelation tell John to not worship him and
tell him to worship Christ? in no instance did Christ stop someone to worship him.
if ever this would have been the case is where Thomas falls to his knees and goes My Lord and My God. Christ did not correct him at all.

I do like the fact that in your heart you cared enough to try and learn many things, the majority of Trinitarians don't know very much at all, and I respect that you have taken in knowledge, but you still have it messed up because of who you learned from. In Genesis--Jesus is the one foretold to battle satan. only Jesus. But we see Michael rides the war in heaven--he is the one who stood up for the sons of Daniel( isrealites) Daniel 12:1) by coming to earth as a mortal and laying his life down for all who truly follow him.
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more distortions from you. unbelievable.
Christ is to lead the final battle.

in none of the verses mention is Michael ever associated with being Christ or Jesus. this is a watchtower distortion and a lie from the pit of hell.
Hebrews 1:5-8 100% proves you wrong in this matter.

There are only 3 archangels named in the bible. 1. Michael 2. Gabrielle, 3. Lucifer.
Michael more than likely is the top general of the army with only 1 person above him which is Christ.
So as the general it makes sense for him to lead

Jude
4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

applies greatly to the JW.

Jude verse 9
9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

So in Matthew 4 Jesus commands Satan to be gone.
in Jude 9 Michael calls on the Lord to rebuke satan so as not to commit blasphemy.

Don't you think its kind of strange that from Moses on up until this day--every Israelite who serves the true God--serve a single being mono God named-YHWH(Jehovah) and that was the God taught to Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Peter And Jesus while they attended the synagogues--and not one of them ever refuted that--surely Jesus would have. then all of them were murdered--then Catholicism popped up 250 years later serving a trinity god.
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Yet they knew exactly who Christ was more so John as he was one of the 12 and knew Christ personally and was called the beloved disciple.
that is why he said In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the Word was God.
unlike your bible that says and the Word was a God (which is 100% incorrect) and is why JW's are polytheists.
 
ludin said:
No it isn't. it clearly states that the Lamb opens the seals. The seals are the first series of punishments of God's wrath on the earth. it has not one thing to do with the war in heaven. The holy spirit does everything to Glory the Son. all of it's power and influence goes back to show the glory of the Son.
again JW distortion of scripture lose.




Paul warns about the watchtower teachings.

4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

Isaiah 44:6 states, "I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me."
Revelation 1:17-18 which says, "Do not be fearful; I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead but look! I am living forever." (Christ talking)

Titus 2:13 says, "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."
the Holy Spirit is GOd as well.

"But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?...You have not lied to men, but to God.'"



then why were the apostles and his disciples constantly worshiping Christ? the other part is why did the angel in revelation tell John to not worship him and
tell him to worship Christ? in no instance did Christ stop someone to worship him.
if ever this would have been the case is where Thomas falls to his knees and goes My Lord and My God. Christ did not correct him at all.



more distortions from you. unbelievable.
Christ is to lead the final battle.

in none of the verses mention is Michael ever associated with being Christ or Jesus. this is a watchtower distortion and a lie from the pit of hell.
Hebrews 1:5-8 100% proves you wrong in this matter.

There are only 3 archangels named in the bible. 1. Michael 2. Gabrielle, 3. Lucifer.
Michael more than likely is the top general of the army with only 1 person above him which is Christ.
So as the general it makes sense for him to lead

Jude
4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

applies greatly to the JW.

Jude verse 9
9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

So in Matthew 4 Jesus commands Satan to be gone.
in Jude 9 Michael calls on the Lord to rebuke satan so as not to commit blasphemy.



Yet they knew exactly who Christ was more so John as he was one of the 12 and knew Christ personally and was called the beloved disciple.
that is why he said In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the Word was God.
unlike your bible that says and the Word was a God (which is 100% incorrect) and is why JW's are polytheists.
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Here is the Jesus Paul proclaimed--2Cor 1:3--- Jesus has a God-his Father--1Cor 8:6--Only the Father is God---what don't you understand?
 
kjw47 said:
Here is the Jesus Paul proclaimed--2Cor 1:3--- Jesus has a God-his Father--1Cor 8:6--Only the Father is God---what don't you understand?
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that you can't see the lies that the watchtower has given you.
that when shown how wrong the watchtower is and backed up with scripture you just parrot the same thing.

so on Corinthians.

The term greater refers to position, not nature. The term better refers to nature.

1. ignore any scripture that shows you are wrong.
2. just repost what you posted before because you don't have the knowledge to actually refute what is said.

Paul writing in phillipians 2

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Hebrews 1:4
having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they." speaking of Christ.

"But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” And, "In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like clothing; like a cloak you will roll them up, and like clothing they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never end.” (Hebrews 1:8-12)

He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. " (Hebrews 1:3)

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Firstborn in this case meaning prominence not first created as the JW distort scripture to say. First created is a totally different word that is not used.

and I already showed where the Holy Spirit is God as well.

you can't refute anything because you can only spout what the watchtower tells you to and ignore anything that proves you wrong.
this is what we call brainwashing.
 
ludin said:
that you can't see the lies that the watchtower has given you.
that when shown how wrong the watchtower is and backed up with scripture you just parrot the same thing.

so on Corinthians.

The term greater refers to position, not nature. The term better refers to nature.

1. ignore any scripture that shows you are wrong.
2. just repost what you posted before because you don't have the knowledge to actually refute what is said.

Paul writing in phillipians 2

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Hebrews 1:4
having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they." speaking of Christ.

"But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” And, "In the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like clothing; like a cloak you will roll them up, and like clothing they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never end.” (Hebrews 1:8-12)

He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact imprint of God’s very being, and he sustains all things by his powerful word. " (Hebrews 1:3)

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Firstborn in this case meaning prominence not first created as the JW distort scripture to say. First created is a totally different word that is not used.

and I already showed where the Holy Spirit is God as well.

you can't refute anything because you can only spout what the watchtower tells you to and ignore anything that proves you wrong.
this is what we call brainwashing.
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its your teachers who err--they rely on Catholicism translation--all trinity bibles are Catholicism translastion--the originals disappeared after they translated. every one after that is from Catholicism translation error--until the JW,s corrected it by HS.
 
kjw47 said:
its your teachers who err--they rely on Catholicism translation--all trinity bibles are Catholicism translastion--the originals disappeared after they translated. every one after that is from Catholicism translation error--until the JW,s corrected it by HS.
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thank you for you concession in that you cannot actually address any of the points I mentioned.
no they have the manuscripts that date back to the 1st century church.

the only known translation error out there is the NWT by the JW watchtower.

Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT "a frightful mistranslation," "Erroneous" and "pernicious" "reprehensible" "If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists." (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature)

Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."

British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, "From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated."

"Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had misquoted me in support of their translation." (These words were excerpted from the tape, "Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation", Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation)

Dr. Julius Mantey , author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT "a shocking mistranslation." "Obsolete and incorrect." "It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 'The Word was a god.'"

"I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures.... it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation." (Julius Mantey , Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137)

the translators of the NWT are "diabolical deceivers." (Julius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin)

Paul even proves that the JW and the watchtower are false teachers.

Galations 1:7 is exactly what the watchtower is.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

the JW preaches another scripture and another Christ other than the one Taught in the bible and the exact same thing that Paul preached and wrote about.

the watchtower believes Christ is Michael as I have shown 100% is a lie.
the watchtower does not believe that Christ is God or part of the God head and by therefore having multiple Gods you are a polytheist.
the watchtower does not believe that the Holy Spirit is part of God even though I quoted you the scripture that says otherwise.

Therefore the watchtower is preaching something other than the scripture that we are given.
the watchtower is preaching something another Jesus Christ.

the question is why don't you believe God's word and instead follows man's word?
 
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