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St. Patrick explains the Trinity

vesper said:
Hi It's just me. The message of salvation is so simple yet there are so many that want to complicate it. I know why but I won't go there but instead tonight with all that is going on in the world I am focused on the great commands of our Lord. Love God and love others. All believers need to remember those commands at all times because the foundation of our Christian faith are based on them. Instead of looking at another for what they lack in understanding, pray for them so it will be made known and see them as what they have the potential of becoming. Every denomination claiming to be Christian are lower case "c's" as in church. But there is only one true Church and that is those who follow Christ. For He is the head of all believers and gives the capital "C" in Church. I'm from Apollo's, I'm from Cephas, I'm from Paul...wasn't acceptable at Corinth and other places and it is not acceptable today.
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All of my life I have been hearing this "You're not a Christian unless you know the secret handshake" business, and everybody does it. I was listening to "Catholic Answers Live" last night on the radio thinking about how they complicate the obvious unnecessarily, and as much as the Protestants as a group talk about the Catholics, they are just as bad. Then you have Darby and the Millerites and their descendants further complicating the issue as they sit on their suitcases waiting for the rapture.

Don't get me wrong, I learn a lot from the Catholics, seeing as how my church and theirs share the same DNA, and I served under a converted Baptist preacher at one church during my formation who taught me a lot. The thing I love most about Christianity is that it's so simple a child can grasp it but at the same time it's so rich that it can keep a thinking person occupied for a lifetime. Just when you think you've "got it" you find out just how much more there is to know.

I sense a general lack of humility in society in general these days - everybody's an "expert" since the internet came along. It reminds me of the "five minute university" thing from none other than Father Guido Sarducci, my avatar. People get to know a few verses of scripture and they know everything. But, as you have pointed out, if you are going to base your theology on one verse the one to choose is Jesus' summary of the Law - "love God and love your neighbor".
 
ludin said:
it doesn't call satan a God because satan isn't a God. he is a fallen angel who was kicked out of heaven for trying to take what didn't belong to him.
it didn't call moses a God either.

context is important to know what they are talking about you as always are hung up on the word definition vs the meaning of the verse.
god in mose's and the judges context is that God is judge of the world and they were given God's authority to judge the people.

This verse was addressed to the judges of Israel, who were called 'gods'-not because they were divine, but because they represented God when they judged the people.
The Scripture clarifies that these rulers were not literal gods because it says, "you will die like men . . ."
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2 Corinthians 4:4 for example .

"In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers"


Exodus 7:1

"I will make you god to pharaoh"

Oh and the ones in psalms WERER called Gods ... as we see in Jesus' argument in John 10.

They are Gods, but they will still die like men ....

So .... you're right CONTEXT MATTERS, the same With Jesus.

I never made that claim. so that is a strawman.
good thing they were never called God. another strawman
Jesus isn't a God (that is JW teaching) Jesus is God (Christian Teaching).

your strawman is a failure.
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Jesus can be called a God ... just not Yahweh ....

So stop With the polytheist bull****.

no I refuse to fall for your trap in which you failed. you cannot separate Jesus and God otherwise you are polytheist and believe in more than one God.
There is nothing to expose.

JW have already been exposed for what they are 2000 years ago. why people continue to believe their distortion of the bible and their false teachings is beyond me.

YWHW is the name of God. Jesus is God therefore it is perfectly fine to call him YWHW as well. He is also the Son of God as established by him and he is also the Son of Man.
he has several other titles as well that all relate back to his deity of God.
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He isn't God Yahweh ... and no saying Jesus is properly called a God, but he is not yahweh, is not being a polythiest,

otherwise Jesus is a polytheist in John 10:34,35

34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law,[d] ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled—

If you'd like to have a debate on the Trinity about whether it is in the bible or not, I'll have that anytime.
 
it's just me said:
I call you and your JW friends here "polytheists" because your god was unable to accomplish your salvation alone. He needed the help of Michael the Archangel (for some unknown reason) along with the help of an invisible, impersonal "force" called the Holy Spirit. The God of the Bible can and did accomplish salvation for the whole world by Himself, as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
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Wait ... I don't know where you're getting this Michael the ARchangel from ... I have never argued that.

And God used moses to save Israel .... so what? That doesn't make it polytheism, God always uses mediators to accomplish Things, always has.

BTW last sentance there ... is modalism, or when you say "god of the bible" and use the singular personal pronoun ... are you reffering to the Father or the son or the holy spirit? Or are they one person?

Actually YOU are the polytheist .... a person is a being, Plain and simple, if the father is Yahweh, and the Son is Yahweh, that is 2 Yahweh's, now you can pretend it's one god all you want, but the fact is, 2 persons, 2 beings, whome you Call Yahweh.
 
RGacky3 said:
.... a person is a being, Plain and simple, if the father is Yahweh, and the Son is Yahweh, that is 2 Yahweh's, now you can pretend it's one god all you want, but the fact is, 2 persons, 2 beings, whome you Call Yahweh.
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Nope, one God. "But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me." (John 15:26)

One God, three persons. Maybe your god's arms are too short for such a feat, my God's arms are not.
 
Jerry said:
What in the world makes you think I'm asleep at this hour? I just had lunch :lol:
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Well, for those of us who work days it's barely breakfast time, I am waiting for the coffee to brew.

I posted the video for the unitarians and the JW's.
 
RGacky3 said:
2 Corinthians 4:4 for example .

"In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers"


Exodus 7:1

"I will make you god to pharaoh"

Oh and the ones in psalms WERER called Gods ... as we see in Jesus' argument in John 10.

They are Gods, but they will still die like men ....

So .... you're right CONTEXT MATTERS, the same With Jesus.



Jesus can be called a God ... just not Yahweh ....

So stop With the polytheist bull****.



He isn't God Yahweh ... and no saying Jesus is properly called a God, but he is not yahweh, is not being a polythiest,

otherwise Jesus is a polytheist in John 10:34,35

34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law,[d] ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled—

If you'd like to have a debate on the Trinity about whether it is in the bible or not, I'll have that anytime.
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I am not going to go over everything that I just explained to you.
if you want to separate God from Christ and think they are different people that is fine. you can be a polytheist. it is anti-biblical and anti-scriptural but you
can do it if you want to. No real question will believe you though.

I have already explained to you what the writers meant by the word gods. you have once again just like kwj failed to read and comprehend what you are being told and
just continue to repeat yourself over again like that is going to make an argument.

We have already had that debate and you lost. so there is no need to have it again.

Since Jesus is God and God the Father exist as 1 he is YWHW as well.
1 God three distinct natures God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
 
RGacky3 said:
Wait ... I don't know where you're getting this Michael the ARchangel from ... I have never argued that.

And God used moses to save Israel .... so what? That doesn't make it polytheism, God always uses mediators to accomplish Things, always has.

BTW last sentance there ... is modalism, or when you say "god of the bible" and use the singular personal pronoun ... are you reffering to the Father or the son or the holy spirit? Or are they one person?

Actually YOU are the polytheist .... a person is a being, Plain and simple, if the father is Yahweh, and the Son is Yahweh, that is 2 Yahweh's, now you can pretend it's one god all you want, but the fact is, 2 persons, 2 beings, whome you Call Yahweh.
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JW believe that Christ is Michael the archangel. that he gained his status by being obedient from the father.

nope not polytheistic as all since we believe that Father and Son are and the HOly spirit is 1 God called YWHW.
 
ludin said:
JW believe that Christ is Michael the archangel. that he gained his status by being obedient from the father.

nope not polytheistic as all since we believe that Father and Son are and the HOly spirit is 1 God called YWHW.
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Do you believe the Father is Yahweh?

Do you believe the son is Yahweh?

If the answer to both of those is yes .. you have 2 Yahweh's.

1+1=2
 
RGacky3 said:
Do you believe the Father is Yahweh?

Do you believe the son is Yahweh?

If the answer to both of those is yes .. you have 2 Yahweh's.

1+1=2
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only JW logic can come up with math like that. not to mention you ignored what I said if you can't be honest in what you are addressing then you lose the argument.

I never said anything of the sort. you need to go back read understand then.

http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/jesus-christ-is-yahweh
 
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it's just me said:
Nope, one God. "But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me." (John 15:26)

One God, three persons. Maybe your god's arms are too short for such a feat, my God's arms are not.
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What feat? The semantic feat you're making?

if Jesus is Yahweh that's 1 Yahweh ... or is it 1/3 of Yahweh?

If the father is yahweh that's 1 yahweh .... or is it 1/3 of yahweh?

Or if you'd like, you can just throw out Logic all together.
 
ludin said:
only JW logic can come up with math like that. not to mention you ignored what I said if you can't be honest in what you are addressing then you lose the argument.

I never said anything of the sort. you need to go back read understand then.

Jesus Christ is YAHWEH | Desiring God
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What argument?

What Math? 1+1=2 ... Yeah, I think that's universal Logic.

As far as the link ...

It's based on Philippians 2:9-11

9 Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

See a trinitarian interpretation doesn't work .... GOD did this for Jesus, and they bend to Jesus becuase Jesus is King, to the glory of God the father ....

What is the name Jesus recieved? The name of Jesus ... Not Yahweh ... and that name become every other name, because Jesus became King .. to the glory of the father.

Nowhere in the scripture does it say Jesus became yahweh, or was given that name.
 
RGacky3 said:
What feat? The semantic feat you're making?

if Jesus is Yahweh that's 1 Yahweh ... or is it 1/3 of Yahweh?

If the father is yahweh that's 1 yahweh .... or is it 1/3 of yahweh?

Or if you'd like, you can just throw out Logic all together.
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Wait a minute Gacky, you're the one who told me that the Bible fell out of the sky fully formed and that the Church had nothing to do with it's writing or it's compilation, and you want to tell me about throwing out logic? You threw out logic a long time ago, I am throwing out your bad theology.
 
it's just me said:
Wait a minute Gacky, you're the one who told me that the Bible fell out of the sky fully formed and that the Church had nothing to do with it's writing or it's compilation, and you want to tell me about throwing out logic? You threw out logic a long time ago, I am throwing out your bad theology.
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Where did I ever say the bible fell out of the sky fully formed?

Anyway red herring ... I see you've given up defending the Trinity logically ....
 
RGacky3 said:
Where did I ever say the bible fell out of the sky fully formed?

Anyway red herring ... I see you've given up defending the Trinity logically ....
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When I informed you that the Church wrote and compiled the Bible. You said "God did it". I admit that the Bible is inspired, but nobody believes that God Himself came down from heaven with pen in hand to write the Bible. And you want to talk about "logic"?

I have not given up on the Trinity, I have given up on trying to make the blind see, because the very same Church that gave you the Bible you thump also teaches the Triune God.
 
it's just me said:
When I informed you that the Church wrote and compiled the Bible. You said "God did it". I admit that the Bible is inspired, but nobody believes that God Himself came down from heaven with pen in hand to write the Bible. And you want to talk about "logic"?

I have not given up on the Trinity, I have given up on trying to make the blind see, because the very same Church that gave you the Bible you thump also teaches the Triune God.
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God Chose the books that he inspired, and he used human writers ... I never claimed God wrote the bible by hand ... either you're deliberately missunderstanding me, or just not getting it, the Church didn't Write the bible, various apostles and followers did, the Church did not compile it either, these books were inspired, before the Church recognized officially that they were ...

Of course you haven't given up on the Trinity ... you've just given up on trying to defend it logically or biblically.

BTW, what Church is that? The Anglican Church? The Catholic Church? The Greek Orthodox Church? ... You're Church is not the historic Church, and according to the actual historic Church (if you want to appeal to tradition), Your church's sacraments are NOT VALID.

So I'd be careful going Down the Church authority argument.
 
RGacky3 said:
God Chose the books that he inspired, and he used human writers ... I never claimed God wrote the bible by hand ... either you're deliberately missunderstanding me, or just not getting it, the Church didn't Write the bible, various apostles and followers did, the Church did not compile it either, these books were inspired, before the Church recognized officially that they were ...

Of course you haven't given up on the Trinity ... you've just given up on trying to defend it logically or biblically.

BTW, what Church is that? The Anglican Church? The Catholic Church? The Greek Orthodox Church? ... You're Church is not the historic Church, and according to the actual historic Church (if you want to appeal to tradition), Your church's sacraments are NOT VALID.

So I'd be careful going Down the Church authority argument.
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And just who is it that you think the apostles and prophets are? What exactly is it that you think the Church is? Until you can answer these questions truthfully you will continue down your narrow minded path that prevents you from knowing who Jesus was and is and what the Bible you keep thumping says.

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?
 
RGacky3 said:
What argument?

What Math? 1+1=2 ... Yeah, I think that's universal Logic.
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In this case it is your logic or I should say lack of logic, and no one elses. a simple strawman on what is being discussed is the only way you can come up with this.
therefore it isn't logic it is a logical fallacy.

As far as the link ...

It's based on Philippians 2:9-11

9 Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Click to expand...

Yet we have already established that Jesus Christ is not only God but the Son of God. He is the 2nd part of the Trinity. 1 God with 3 distinct and Separate Natures.
Yes all knees will bow and all head will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and that He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The only way this can be is if He is God or part of the God Head.

See a trinitarian interpretation doesn't work .... GOD did this for Jesus, and they bend to Jesus becuase Jesus is King, to the glory of God the father ....
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It works perfectly fine if you understand the relationship between them all.
Then you believe in more than 1 God and you are a polytheist by this interpretation because according to you you are violating one of 10 commandments by putting Christ ahead of God.
you are worshiping something other than God. You believe in more than 1 God.

you just invalided everything you said with this 1 statement.

What is the name Jesus recieved? The name of Jesus ... Not Yahweh ... and that name become every other name, because Jesus became King .. to the glory of the father.

Nowhere in the scripture does it say Jesus became yahweh, or was given that name.
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Jesus has quite a few names. Immanuel (God with us) was his First name, Prince of Peace, Son of God, Son of Man, I AM.
take your pick.

why did you ignore the link I gave you. since Jesus is God YWHW is a perfect title as well.
unless you want to state the YWHW is a totally separate God and that would make you a polytheist.

you see you are arguing something that the first church 2000 years ago took care of.
you must be an arianist or a uniterian or something or a JW. they don't believe in the deity of Christ either.

of course they were proven wrong, but still make the same fallacy arguments today. kinda hard to be a Christian if you don't believe what the bible says about Christ.
 
RGacky3 said:
God Chose the books that he inspired, and he used human writers ... I never claimed God wrote the bible by hand ... either you're deliberately missunderstanding me, or just not getting it, the Church didn't Write the bible, various apostles and followers did, the Church did not compile it either, these books were inspired, before the Church recognized officially that they were ...

Of course you haven't given up on the Trinity ... you've just given up on trying to defend it logically or biblically.

BTW, what Church is that? The Anglican Church? The Catholic Church? The Greek Orthodox Church? ... You're Church is not the historic Church, and according to the actual historic Church (if you want to appeal to tradition), Your church's sacraments are NOT VALID.

So I'd be careful going Down the Church authority argument.
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actually the first church would be the apostles and Paul. it is from their authority and those of the 1st church leaders that the trinity was solidified.
 
it's just me said:
And just who is it that you think the apostles and prophets are? What exactly is it that you think the Church is? Until you can answer these questions truthfully you will continue down your narrow minded path that prevents you from knowing who Jesus was and is and what the Bible you keep thumping says.

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?
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The apostles are the 12 Matthew, John, James, Simon, Andrew Thomas and so on and so forth, the prophets are the ones in the Old Testament, Jeremiah, Elijah, Amos, Nathaniel, Isaiah, Zechariah and so on and so forth.

The New testament was written in the Apostolic age, that's it.

The Church are the body of Christians that follow Jesus teachings and believe in what he preached and believe in his Kingdom, but I'm not the one appealing to the authority of the Church ... you are.

So let me ask you.

What is the Church?

You keep ignoring my questions.

You talk about the "Church" having the authority, to define dogma and scripture ... which Church? What Church? What do you mean by Church ...

I don't mean that as a leading question, it's a serious one, I can understand that argument coming from an Orthodox (eastern or Oriental) Christian or a Catholic ... but an Anglican? Common now ... so you tell me, which Church are you refering to and what do you mean by "Church"?

Moses didn't die for Israel and rise on the third day.
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Yeah, I know, that isn't the point, the point is how God acts throught humans do accomplish his will.
 
ludin said:
In this case it is your logic or I should say lack of logic, and no one elses. a simple strawman on what is being discussed is the only way you can come up with this.
therefore it isn't logic it is a logical fallacy.
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Ok, I'm going to lay Down my argument, you tell me which premis is wrong.

1. Jesus is fully Yahweh.
2. The Father is fully Yahweh
3. Jesus is NOT the father

The conclusion is we have 2 Yahwehs.

THe conclusion follows logically, it's aristotilian Logic, if I'm wrong, tell me which premis is wrong.

Yet we have already established that Jesus Christ is not only God but the Son of God. He is the 2nd part of the Trinity. 1 God with 3 distinct and Separate Natures.
Yes all knees will bow and all head will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and that He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The only way this can be is if He is God or part of the God Head.
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Son of God and God are mutually exclusive terms ....

Of coarse Jesus can be Lord, king of kings and Lord of lords .... why? Because that's what God made him .... he wasn't always king of kings and lord of lords, but God made him that, and no he doesn't need to be God for that to happen ... why does he? God can make who ever he wants king.

It works perfectly fine if you understand the relationship between them all.
Then you believe in more than 1 God and you are a polytheist by this interpretation because according to you you are violating one of 10 commandments by putting Christ ahead of God.
you are worshiping something other than God. You believe in more than 1 God.

you just invalided everything you said with this 1 statement.
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It Depends on what you mean by the Word God .... the bible Calls moses God .... is the bible polytheist? it Calls Satan God ... it Calls the judges gods, is it polytheist ... again Words have meanings depending on the context.

And btw, when you say worship, do you mean proskenau or Latrueau .... if the former .... then Guess what, the bible commanded that People "worshiped" the king of Israel, and Esau was "worshiped" by Joseph ... if you mean the latter ... then no I don't worship Jesus in that way.

This is a typical trinitarian trick ... take a Word, (especially a translation from the origional Language), and play Word cames With it, rather than actually look at what those Words mean in their context.

Jesus has quite a few names. Immanuel (God with us) was his First name, Prince of Peace, Son of God, Son of Man, I AM.
take your pick.
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I AM was not a name, it's ego eimi, the generic self Reference term, and not the actual translation of the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14 .... As far as Immanuel ... Elijah literally means "God Yahweh) ... now, does that mean that's who Elijah was? Obviously not.

But again, that verse was not calling Jesus Yahweh at all.

why did you ignore the link I gave you. since Jesus is God YWHW is a perfect title as well.
unless you want to state the YWHW is a totally separate God and that would make you a polytheist.
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YHWH is the most high, and the only almighty God ... Jesus is not God in that sense, but can be called god in a lesser sense, the same way the bible Calls moses god, the same way the bible Calls judges gods and so on.

you see you are arguing something that the first church 2000 years ago took care of.
you must be an arianist or a uniterian or something or a JW. they don't believe in the deity of Christ either.
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Actually it didn't take care of it 2000 years ago, the Council of nicea tried to deal With it, but still after that a huge portion of christianity was Arian, and the Jewish Christians, the origional ones, never took on the idea of trinitarianism. Trinitarianism won eventually by the sword.

of course they were proven wrong, but still make the same fallacy arguments today. kinda hard to be a Christian if you don't believe what the bible says about Christ.
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I do believe what the bible says about Christ .... Christ has a God, and that God is the same god as Our god, and every Power and authority that Jesus has, comes from God.

actually the first church would be the apostles and Paul. it is from their authority and those of the 1st church leaders that the trinity was solidified.
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No it wasn't actually, given that we don't have anything in the New testament testifying to the Trinity at all, InFact quite the opposite, and in early christianity the closest thing is Tertullian, but even he isn't really trinitarian, his Language is a lot more Arian.
 
RGacky3 said:
The Church are the body of Christians that follow Jesus teachings and believe in what he preached and believe in his Kingdom
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What is the Church?
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You answered your own question.

Q:
You talk about the "Church" having the authority, to define dogma and scripture ... which Church? What Church? What do you mean by Church ...
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A:
The Church are the body of Christians that follow Jesus teachings and believe in what he preached and believe in his Kingdom
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Q: Simple, isn't it?

A: Yes.
 
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