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Divine Intervention and Faith

Amadeus

Chews the Cud
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Why doesn't God intervene anymore? I'm admittedly not a believer, and one of the reasons is that God doesn't make his presence known. If he is out there, he seems to have come to the conclusion that humanity should be left alone.

Aside from the Bible (or whatever religious text you subscribe to), what sustains your faith in God?
 
"God" does intervene. Oftentimes, I think that people fail to recognize it, and I don't by any means believe that miracles happen (as a rule), but some of the things I have seen have kept me from becoming either atheistic, or terribly disillusioned. Admittedly, my perception of God isn't the same as everyone's, but I've seen some downright amazing things in my lifetime that are too odd to be chalked up to mere coincidence.
 
Why doesn't God intervene anymore? I'm admittedly not a believer, and one of the reasons is that God doesn't make his presence known. If he is out there, he seems to have come to the conclusion that humanity should be left alone.

Aside from the Bible (or whatever religious text you subscribe to), what sustains your faith in God?



The indwelling Holy Spirit gives me a direct spiritual connection to God that provides me with all the sustenance my faith needs. I know He is, like I know my right arm is still there.

"For by grace through faith are ye saved; and that not of yourselves, but the gift of God."

I remember a young woman, in tears, telling me that she didn't think she had any faith left in her. I quoted that verse to her, and suggested she pray that God give her faith. She's a Christian today.

And btw, God does intervene, and He still speaks to his people. You have to look to see, and listen to hear, because it is a whisper, not a shout.
 
The indwelling Holy Spirit gives me a direct spiritual connection to God that provides me with all the sustenance my faith needs. I know He is, like I know my right arm is still there.

"For by grace through faith are ye saved; and that not of yourselves, but the gift of God."

I remember a young woman, in tears, telling me that she didn't think she had any faith left in her. I quoted that verse to her, and suggested she pray that God give her faith. She's a Christian today.

And btw, God does intervene, and He still speaks to his people. You have to look to see, and listen to hear, because it is a whisper, not a shout.

I appreciate the response, but this is more Bible speak. It is a fancy of saying trust the scripture and have faith. :?
 
I appreciate the response, but this is more Bible speak. It is a fancy of saying trust the scripture and have faith. :?



I'm sorry you see it that way, as it is actually a lot more than that.
 
I'm sorry you see it that way, as it is actually a lot more than that.

Didn't mean to offend, but I was hoping there wouldn't be a lot of "look to yourself and you'll find God" or "God works in mysterious ways" kinds of posts. I'm an atheist so I can't understand those messages in any meaningful way.

Oh well.
 
Didn't mean to offend, but I was hoping there wouldn't be a lot of "look to yourself and you'll find God" or "God works in mysterious ways" kinds of posts. I'm an atheist so I can't understand those messages in any meaningful way.

Oh well.

That's not what I understood Goshin to say. What I heard and recognized because this is my experience as well is that God is and that I experience Him naturally and directly.
 
Didn't mean to offend, but I was hoping there wouldn't be a lot of "look to yourself and you'll find God" or "God works in mysterious ways" kinds of posts. I'm an atheist so I can't understand those messages in any meaningful way.

Oh well.


No offense, but trying to explain color to someone who can't see it is difficult.

There are ways to experience God directly, but unless someone is genuinely open to that experience it isn't going to happen. It's not going to just happen by sitting in your living room with the lights off saying "Okay, god-being, if you really exist reveal yourself to me," and then sitting back skeptically with your arms crossed until you get bored.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass in saying this, I'm just saying that since by definition you don't "do faith", you're probably not going to experience the reality of God directly as this is something that happens by and through faith, as if faith was the flashlight in the otherwise darkened room.


Other than that, let's just say I've seen too many improbable but poetically appropriate things happen in life to fail to believe that more than just random chance rules the universe.
 
Moderator's Warning:
And btw, sorry to be tiresome, but given the subject matter here I suppose I need to reiterate: This is the Religious Discussion Forum. It is specifically not for questioning or debating the existence of God, nor general religion bashing. The subject matter may lead in a direction unsuited to the RDF, in which case there may be infractions and the thread may be moved. Bear in mind civility and respect are expected here.
 
Didn't mean to offend, but I was hoping there wouldn't be a lot of "look to yourself and you'll find God" or "God works in mysterious ways" kinds of posts. I'm an atheist so I can't understand those messages in any meaningful way.

Oh well.

Regarding the underlined part. It's not meaningful. Those are just empty, hollow words that are used in an attempt to justify an unjustifiable event.
 
Regarding the underlined part. It's not meaningful. Those are just empty, hollow words that are used in an attempt to justify an unjustifiable event.

By "unjustifiable" do you mean "inexplicable"?
 
Thank you for clarifying.
 
Why doesn't God intervene anymore? I'm admittedly not a believer, and one of the reasons is that God doesn't make his presence known. If he is out there, he seems to have come to the conclusion that humanity should be left alone.

Aside from the Bible (or whatever religious text you subscribe to), what sustains your faith in God?

Just because you have not experienced such an intervention doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. It much more likely means either that you simply aren't open to allowing God to work in your life, or else you haven't recognized his influence when you have experienced it.
 
Why doesn't God intervene anymore? I'm admittedly not a believer, and one of the reasons is that God doesn't make his presence known. If he is out there, he seems to have come to the conclusion that humanity should be left alone.

There is a comprehensive answer to that question having to do with the role of the Holy Spirit throughout history and the difference between the era we are living in today and the 'pre-Christian' and 'Jesus on Earth' eras that are now behind us. But going into those details probably wouldn't be satisfying to you anyway. In a nutshell, God did not conclude that humanity should be left alone, God empowered humanity to guide the world towards the next era, thus why he works primarily through his people in the era we are currently living in.

I'm not saying miracles never happen anymore. I have been the recipient of a miracle myself and know of several others second hand. But rather that God's primary interaction with the world today is through his people, his image bearers whom he sent out into the word to be his hands and feet. It's different from how he interacted with the world prior to the arrival of Christ and the subsequent arrival of the Holy Spirit, but in many ways, it's better.

The more interesting question you pose is the following:
Amadeus said:
Aside from the Bible (or whatever religious text you subscribe to), what sustains your faith in God?

The short answer to this question is that I believe human beings are born with certain innate dispositions. Among these are some fairly strong desires for conditions that do not actually exist on Earth. We are born with a sense of fairness and justice, good and evil, right and wrong. We are born with a yearning for something greater than what actually exists on Earth.

There's three basic ways we can deal with that fact.

The first way is to deny that it is a fact at all and cling to the tabula rasa theory of human knowledge. The problem with this is that the blank slate theory has been very thoroughly disproven by now through sociological study. We pretty much know that innate dispositions are real and repeated attempts to prove that people are born blank slates have always failed. So this isn't a viable explanation anymore.

Another way to deal with this is to say that these must be biological imperatives that are the result of natural selection. In other words, we can conclude that having these desires has helped us survive as a species so natural selection has ensured people born without such desires were weeded out. This is a fairly strong and legitimate argument. I don't subscribe to it for reasons beyond the scope of this discussion. But suffice it to say that I don't find it as convincing as the third way of dealing with this.

The third way of dealing with this fact is to conclude that there must be certain objective truths that people are born with some awareness of (good, justice, fairness, etc.). If we accept this view we can proceed in any number of directions in exploring whence these objective truths come from, but the most straight forward answer is "God" (or, more specifically, "the divine").

At an intellectual level, I believe what I do because the story the bible tells fits observed reality better than the other alternatives. I believe it makes sense of all the desires we are born with (desires for good and justice and fairness) and fits the picture of the world around us the best.

Having said that, I think that is merely the intellectual underpinning of my faith. Ultimately, faith comes with emotional and not just intellectual aspects as well. I also believe in God because I believe I have felt his presence, heard his voice, and seen his life transforming power at work. Could this all be nothing but emotionalism? Sure. It's also difficult to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it, which is why I leave it for here, as a side note in the end. But it's actually quite an important aspect of faith. It's just one that is difficult to discuss with anyone who hasn't experienced it.

I wouldn't say I never doubt. Everyone experiences doubt. Even Mother Teresa, long considered a paragon of faith in action expressed doubt in some of her letters. But doubt is good, wrestling with questions is good, religion is a contact sport. Besides, even if I were wrong about there being a God, living a Christian lifestyle would still be the best way to live.

If these kinds of questions interest you, I would highly recommend the following books:
A Search for What Makes Sense, by Brian McLaren
Simply Christian: Why Christianity Makes Sense, by N.T. Wright
 
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Why doesn't God intervene anymore? I'm admittedly not a believer, and one of the reasons is that God doesn't make his presence known. If he is out there, he seems to have come to the conclusion that humanity should be left alone.

Aside from the Bible (or whatever religious text you subscribe to), what sustains your faith in God?

True story: after having had three stents placed into my heart (all of which failed) I was diagnosed with congestive heart failure. It was at a time when my church has having a Cursillo weekend (which is like a retreat). What happens is that you get together with a bunch of people for an intensive weekend of study and worship. Having done it before, I knew that at some point during the weekend they would ask people to come forward for healing prayer. I had been forbidden by my doctor to even go to the weekend because he was afraid that if something happened to me (the retreat was in a remote place) that they wouldn't be able to get me to medical treatment in time.

But against medical advice I went. I told my wife I was going to go and be healed. So I did, and I did.

The very next week I went back to the doctor for more tests and to both of our surprise, although I was still in pretty rough shape from the failed angioplasties, there was no sign of heart failure. I have gotten stronger ever since then, and today nobody knows about my heart problems unless I tell them, they just think I am old. I lead a normal life and for someone my age I don't do badly at all.

That said, I DO NOT recommend that people ignore medical advice. I am a great believer in modern medicine, but mine was an act of desperation, having had been in and out of the hospital for this stuff for months with no apparent effect. And I don't believe that you need to go to a special healing service for healing, intercessory prayer from others is effective no matter when it comes or where it comes from. In theological terms, though, my outward healing was the sign of an inward healing that took place as a result of my act of faith. The words of the Centurion from Matthew 8 return to me over and over again:

The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed...When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith...Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.

And that is not the only time that God has intervened on my behalf, not just in health matters, but in seemingly impossible situations.

As I have said, though, physical healing is merely an outward sign of inner healing. That is to say, you receive the Grace into your soul, then you receive it into your body. It took me a while to figure that out, but I think scripture bears me out on this.

Since then, I have advised many people in dire straits to seek medical attention, whether it's for physical problems, mental problems, and even demon possession. Yes, I ran into someone once who claimed they were possessed and I told him to get to a psychiatrist in case some physical or emotional issue was causing him to feel that way. The real issue, though, is that healing comes from God whether it happens over time or whether it happens instantaneously, and often, physicians and nurses are His tools.
 
True story: after having had three stents placed into my heart (all of which failed) I was diagnosed with congestive heart failure. It was at a time when my church has having a Cursillo weekend (which is like a retreat). What happens is that you get together with a bunch of people for an intensive weekend of study and worship. Having done it before, I knew that at some point during the weekend they would ask people to come forward for healing prayer. I had been forbidden by my doctor to even go to the weekend because he was afraid that if something happened to me (the retreat was in a remote place) that they wouldn't be able to get me to medical treatment in time.

But against medical advice I went. I told my wife I was going to go and be healed. So I did, and I did.

It's great that you received medical benefit from your experience, but to assume that God intervenes your behalf when things go well is a tad worrisome to me. If God is really pulling the levers of luck and chance, and paying out a jackpot to those who pray the hardest, it really comes back to the age-old question: Why do bad things happen to good/devout people, while good things happen to bad people?

For that matter, God has never in recorded history healed someone with a condition that is physically impossible to recover from. It's a though there's a cap on what types of injuries he's willing to 'intervene' on.
 
It's great that you received medical benefit from your experience, but to assume that God intervenes your behalf when things go well is a tad worrisome to me. If God is really pulling the levers of luck and chance, and paying out a jackpot to those who pray the hardest, it really comes back to the age-old question: Why do bad things happen to good/devout people, while good things happen to bad people?

For that matter, God has never in recorded history healed someone with a condition that is physically impossible to recover from. It's a though there's a cap on what types of injuries he's willing to 'intervene' on.

All I can say is I could have eventually healed naturally from my condition (if I lived long enough) but it was the speed with which I healed that was significant. And no, it's not "who prays the hardest". Everyone receives some sort of healing from prayer, it may be emotional, spiritual, physical, or what have you, and it may not take place all at once. That is why I mentioned the thing about physical healing only being the evidence of an inner healing. It's not a crapshoot, and sometimes it takes years for God to straighten some things out, when all of the cosmic pieces fall into place. I remember one impossible situation that I was in that took three years to straighten out, and none of it was due to my own doing, just a string of coincidences (or Godincidences, as we say) that came together.

God is not the cosmic bellhop. He doesn't snap to when you rub a magic lamp, and hand you a million bucks. Everything is ordered to accomplish HIS will, not ours, which is what Jesus meant when he said "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." "In his name" means according to his will. It was evidently His will that I be above ground and vertical in this place at this time, for what purpose I do not know. But even as I prayed before heart surgery I told God that if it was my turn to take the dirt nap I was okay with that, too. THY will be done, not MY will.

Bad things happen to everybody. Good things happen to everybody. Where the notion came from that Christians are not meant to suffer is something I can't imagine. Ever hear of Job? Feces occurs, it happens to everybody.

And if God did heal someone with an amputated limb, would you then believe? Jesus said it himself, even if someone rises from the dead some won't believe it.
 
God is not the cosmic bellhop. He doesn't snap to when you rub a magic lamp, and hand you a million bucks. Everything is ordered to accomplish HIS will, not ours, which is what Jesus meant when he said "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." "In his name" means according to his will. It was evidently His will that I be above ground and vertical in this place at this time, for what purpose I do not know. But even as I prayed before heart surgery I told God that if it was my turn to take the dirt nap I was okay with that, too. THY will be done, not MY will.

It's good news to hear that your health has improved and i mean that sincerely.

You believe everything is ordered to accomplish his will and are ok with that. So many others are not. ""Why bad things will happen to even good people" in this life is probably the most major fundamental question that many Christians struggle with from time to time and many will lose their faith.
 
It's good news to hear that your health has improved and i mean that sincerely.

You believe everything is ordered to accomplish his will and are ok with that. So many others are not. ""Why bad things will happen to even good people" in this life is probably the most major fundamental question that many Christians struggle with from time to time and many will lose their faith.

But good things also happen to good people, as well as bad people. And I am not even sure that it's a matter of "good" and "bad", either, it's more a matter of "just" and "unjust", maybe. One thing I know for sure is that at my stage in life I can look back on all the things that have happened to me (and I have had some serious streaks of bad luck) is that all the things that we struggle with make us who we are. How we deal with suffering and happiness is our choice to make.

We all suffer, we all have good times. But at the same time we all have the option of making things easier or harder for ourselves.
 
"God" does intervene. Oftentimes, I think that people fail to recognize it, and I don't by any means believe that miracles happen (as a rule), but some of the things I have seen have kept me from becoming either atheistic, or terribly disillusioned. Admittedly, my perception of God isn't the same as everyone's, but I've seen some downright amazing things in my lifetime that are too odd to be chalked up to mere coincidence.
This does seem to be the case for many who believe God is working for them or on the behalf of others. Coincidence though is tricky stuff, and it often appears to be divine intervention.

I don't pray much. When I do it's because I've lost any hope that I can work through the situation alone. Prayer definitely calms my nerves and almost always ends with a good result. I'm pretty sure it's just coincidence, but...I definitely won't stop using prayer in times of distress.
 
There is a comprehensive answer to that question having to do with the role of the Holy Spirit throughout history and the difference between the era we are living in today and the 'pre-Christian' and 'Jesus on Earth' eras that are now behind us. But going into those details probably wouldn't be satisfying to you anyway. In a nutshell, God did not conclude that humanity should be left alone, God empowered humanity to guide the world towards the next era, thus why he works primarily through his people in the era we are currently living in.

I'm not saying miracles never happen anymore. I have been the recipient of a miracle myself and know of several others second hand. But rather that God's primary interaction with the world today is through his people, his image bearers whom he sent out into the word to be his hands and feet. It's different from how he interacted with the world prior to the arrival of Christ and the subsequent arrival of the Holy Spirit, but in many ways, it's better.

The more interesting question you pose is the following:


The short answer to this question is that I believe human beings are born with certain innate dispositions. Among these are some fairly strong desires for conditions that do not actually exist on Earth. We are born with a sense of fairness and justice, good and evil, right and wrong. We are born with a yearning for something greater than what actually exists on Earth.

There's three basic ways we can deal with that fact.

The first way is to deny that it is a fact at all and cling to the tabula rasa theory of human knowledge. The problem with this is that the blank slate theory has been very thoroughly disproven by now through sociological study. We pretty much know that innate dispositions are real and repeated attempts to prove that people are born blank slates have always failed. So this isn't a viable explanation anymore.

Another way to deal with this is to say that these must be biological imperatives that are the result of natural selection. In other words, we can conclude that having these desires has helped us survive as a species so natural selection has ensured people born without such desires were weeded out. This is a fairly strong and legitimate argument. I don't subscribe to it for reasons beyond the scope of this discussion. But suffice it to say that I don't find it as convincing as the third way of dealing with this.

The third way of dealing with this fact is to conclude that there must be certain objective truths that people are born with some awareness of (good, justice, fairness, etc.). If we accept this view we can proceed in any number of directions in exploring whence these objective truths come from, but the most straight forward answer is "God" (or, more specifically, "the divine").

At an intellectual level, I believe what I do because the story the bible tells fits observed reality better than the other alternatives. I believe it makes sense of all the desires we are born with (desires for good and justice and fairness) and fits the picture of the world around us the best.

Having said that, I think that is merely the intellectual underpinning of my faith. Ultimately, faith comes with emotional and not just intellectual aspects as well. I also believe in God because I believe I have felt his presence, heard his voice, and seen his life transforming power at work. Could this all be nothing but emotionalism? Sure. It's also difficult to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it, which is why I leave it for here, as a side note in the end. But it's actually quite an important aspect of faith. It's just one that is difficult to discuss with anyone who hasn't experienced it.

I wouldn't say I never doubt. Everyone experiences doubt. Even Mother Teresa, long considered a paragon of faith in action expressed doubt in some of her letters. But doubt is good, wrestling with questions is good, religion is a contact sport. Besides, even if I were wrong about there being a God, living a Christian lifestyle would still be the best way to live.

If these kinds of questions interest you, I would highly recommend the following books:
A Search for What Makes Sense, by Brian McLaren
Simply Christian: Why Christianity Makes Sense, by N.T. Wright



Extremely well-said, kudos and applause. :applaud
 
True story: after having had three stents placed into my heart (all of which failed) I was diagnosed with congestive heart failure. It was at a time when my church has having a Cursillo weekend (which is like a retreat). What happens is that you get together with a bunch of people for an intensive weekend of study and worship. Having done it before, I knew that at some point during the weekend they would ask people to come forward for healing prayer. I had been forbidden by my doctor to even go to the weekend because he was afraid that if something happened to me (the retreat was in a remote place) that they wouldn't be able to get me to medical treatment in time.

But against medical advice I went. I told my wife I was going to go and be healed. So I did, and I did.

The very next week I went back to the doctor for more tests and to both of our surprise, although I was still in pretty rough shape from the failed angioplasties, there was no sign of heart failure. I have gotten stronger ever since then, and today nobody knows about my heart problems unless I tell them, they just think I am old. I lead a normal life and for someone my age I don't do badly at all.

That said, I DO NOT recommend that people ignore medical advice. I am a great believer in modern medicine, but mine was an act of desperation, having had been in and out of the hospital for this stuff for months with no apparent effect. And I don't believe that you need to go to a special healing service for healing, intercessory prayer from others is effective no matter when it comes or where it comes from. In theological terms, though, my outward healing was the sign of an inward healing that took place as a result of my act of faith. The words of the Centurion from Matthew 8 return to me over and over again:



And that is not the only time that God has intervened on my behalf, not just in health matters, but in seemingly impossible situations.

As I have said, though, physical healing is merely an outward sign of inner healing. That is to say, you receive the Grace into your soul, then you receive it into your body. It took me a while to figure that out, but I think scripture bears me out on this.

Since then, I have advised many people in dire straits to seek medical attention, whether it's for physical problems, mental problems, and even demon possession. Yes, I ran into someone once who claimed they were possessed and I told him to get to a psychiatrist in case some physical or emotional issue was causing him to feel that way. The real issue, though, is that healing comes from God whether it happens over time or whether it happens instantaneously, and often, physicians and nurses are His tools.



Thank you for sharing that.


My mother was diagnosed with Lupus in her 40s. A couple years later the docs determined it had gone "internal", and told her she probably had two years to live. During that time the family spent a lot of time in prayer for her, and the church called for everyone to pray for her on many occasions. For a while it seemed she was getting sicker.... then abruptly her Lupus vanished entirely, despite the fact that the doctors had no hope of a cure at that time.

She lived to be 81. :D
 
This does seem to be the case for many who believe God is working for them or on the behalf of others. Coincidence though is tricky stuff, and it often appears to be divine intervention.

I don't pray much. When I do it's because I've lost any hope that I can work through the situation alone. Prayer definitely calms my nerves and almost always ends with a good result. I'm pretty sure it's just coincidence, but...I definitely won't stop using prayer in times of distress.

I don't believe that god works *for*me. It isn't really personal to me, and I don't believe that I am special or favored, except in that I am open and willing to pay attention, but my life has been exceptional in several respects, that most people wouldn't even understand, if they didn't have a good bit of insight into matters concerning the non-mundane.
 
Why doesn't God intervene anymore? I'm admittedly not a believer, and one of the reasons is that God doesn't make his presence known. If he is out there, he seems to have come to the conclusion that humanity should be left alone.

Aside from the Bible (or whatever religious text you subscribe to), what sustains your faith in God?

Way too loaded of a question, there is too much subjective interpretation of what is and is not divine intervention these days to get consensus in terms of Biblical recording.
 
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