• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Faith and Works

phattonez said:
Then there is pain in Heaven? This is Paradise? Revelation disagrees with you: "he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”

And none of that can happen in Heaven, because there is no mourning or pain or tears in Heaven.
Click to expand...

What did Jesus tell you?

"But many who seem to be important now will be the least important then, and those who are considered least here will be the greatest then" (Matthew 19:30, NLT).
 
phattonez said:
They can be saved, yes, but will also likely have to spend some time in Purgatory.
Click to expand...

There is no purgatory or second chances. As the scripture says,

"It is appointed for man to die once THEN THE JUDGMENT."
 
Logicman said:
What did Jesus tell you?

"But many who seem to be important now will be the least important then, and those who are considered least here will be the greatest then" (Matthew 19:30, NLT).
Click to expand...

There are different levels of Heaven, yes, but there is no pain.
 
Logicman said:
There is no purgatory or second chances. As the scripture says,

"It is appointed for man to die once THEN THE JUDGMENT."
Click to expand...

Purgatory is not a second chance. The fate of everyone in Purgatory is sealed. They will all end up in Heaven. It is, however, the place where we are cleansed, because only those who are perfect can see God.
 
phattonez said:
They can be saved, yes, but will also likely have to spend some time in Purgatory.



It is likely that most of us will have to go through Purgatory, some for a longer time than others. We need to be perfect before we can attain the beatific vision, and probably very few of us are perfect when we die.
Click to expand...

The whole purpose of salvation is that we are made perfect in God's eye's by Christ's sacrifice. If more was needed, then the work of the cross was not complete. We can NEVER be seen as perfect by God by anything other than the shed blood of Christ. No amount of penance, time in purgatory or anything other than the sacrificial blood of Christ can do it.
 
phattonez said:
So the solution is to ignore the words of St. James that both faith and works were necessary?

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?"

How do you respond to that?
Click to expand...

His act was evidence of his faith, not a requirement of it. It was proof that he had the faith God was looking for, not the source of his faith. We are called to know people by their fruit, it's the only real standard we can have when looking at believers to judge their faith. It's not what God looks at, since He knows our hearts, but it is what we look at. Abraham's act of obedience was a testimony of his faith for US to see. God already knew that he had the faith He wanted, but the act of obedience was for US to see.
 
faithful_servant said:
The whole purpose of salvation is that we are made perfect in God's eye's by Christ's sacrifice. If more was needed, then the work of the cross was not complete. We can NEVER be seen as perfect by God by anything other than the shed blood of Christ. No amount of penance, time in purgatory or anything other than the sacrificial blood of Christ can do it.
Click to expand...

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[c][d] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." - 1 Corinthians 6. Conversion must include a conversion in action as well. After all, "even the demons believe - and shudder."

Revelation 22: "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood."

Psalm 24: "Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord?
And who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lift up his soul to what is false,
and does not swear deceitfully."
And this for good reason is in my signature.
 
faithful_servant said:
His act was evidence of his faith, not a requirement of it. It was proof that he had the faith God was looking for, not the source of his faith. We are called to know people by their fruit, it's the only real standard we can have when looking at believers to judge their faith. It's not what God looks at, since He knows our hearts, but it is what we look at. Abraham's act of obedience was a testimony of his faith for US to see. God already knew that he had the faith He wanted, but the act of obedience was for US to see.
Click to expand...

Can a someone who believes in Christ and continues to sin willfully gain Heaven?
 
phattonez said:
Then quote for me how you justify ignoring the words of St. James.
Click to expand...

First answer for me this:

Was Abraham justified righteous by faith ("Abram believed the Lord and it was credited to him as righteousness") in Genesis 15:6, 7 CHAPTERS BEFORE GENESIS 22 that James alludes to?

Yes or no?

Now, how many WORKS does one have to do before they meet the 'works' requirement?
 
Last edited:
faithful_servant said:
The whole purpose of salvation is that we are made perfect in God's eye's by Christ's sacrifice. If more was needed, then the work of the cross was not complete.
Click to expand...

Exactly!! Very well put.

Salvation is a GIFT FROM GOD (Ephesians 2:8-9). And since when does one have to work for a gift?!
 
Logicman said:
First answer for me this:

Was Abraham justified righteous by faith ("Abram believed the Lord and it was credited to him as righteousness") in Genesis 15:6, 7 CHAPTERS BEFORE GENESIS 22 that James alludes to?

Yes or no?

Now, how many WORKS does one have to do before they meet the 'works' requirement?
Click to expand...

You realize that I don't doubt the necessity of faith, right?
 
Logicman said:
Exactly!! Very well put.

Salvation is a GIFT FROM GOD (Ephesians 2:8-9). And since when does one have to work for a gift?!
Click to expand...

Since we have to receive the gift. God does not force it upon us.
 
phattonez said:
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[c][d] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." - 1 Corinthians 6. Conversion must include a conversion in action as well. After all, "even the demons believe - and shudder."

Revelation 22: "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood."

Psalm 24: "Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord?
And who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lift up his soul to what is false,
and does not swear deceitfully."
And this for good reason is in my signature.
Click to expand...


None of which we can accomplish on our own. We REQUIRE the sacrifice of Christ to be what is described in these verses. If not, then Christ's sacrifice was unnecessary. If we could be righteous enough, then the Cross wasn't needed. Additionally, what is described in theses verses are people without any evidence of their relationship with God. What is listed are things that show evidence of salvation - not proof, but evidence. They are actions which those of us who have been justified should be showing and/or avoiding. These actions are signs of our relationship - not requirements, not proof, but signs.
 
phattonez said:
Can a someone who believes in Christ and continues to sin willfully gain Heaven?
Click to expand...

Of course. We sin every day. We ignore the voice of the Holy Spirit, we fail to allow God the proper place of complete authority over our lives in almost every minute of every day. Sin is what we do, asking for forgiveness is what we are called to, but neither by themselves can either negate or guarantee our relationship with God. It is only the relationship we have with Him that does that. Everything else is a reflection of that relationship.
 
James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Good works without faith cannot save you, but neither can faith without acting on it :think:
 
Declan said:
James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Good works without faith cannot save you, but neither can faith without acting on it :think:
Click to expand...

A very pertinent verse and an excellent explanation of it- short, to the point and accurate.
 
Logicman said:
But he provides the measure of faith to receive it (Romans 12:3).
Click to expand...

But he does not force it. We must cooperate with it. Remember, even the demons believe in Christ, yet they will not be saved.
 
faithful_servant said:
None of which we can accomplish on our own. We REQUIRE the sacrifice of Christ to be what is described in these verses. If not, then Christ's sacrifice was unnecessary. If we could be righteous enough, then the Cross wasn't needed.
Click to expand...

Nowhere have I denied the necessity of faith or Christ's sacrifice.

Additionally, what is described in theses verses are people without any evidence of their relationship with God. What is listed are things that show evidence of salvation - not proof, but evidence. They are actions which those of us who have been justified should be showing and/or avoiding. These actions are signs of our relationship - not requirements, not proof, but signs.
Click to expand...

The Revelation of John is quite clear: "But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life." - Apocalypse 21.

We must be clean to enter.

Psalm 24: Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord?
And who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lift up his soul to what is false,
and does not swear deceitfully.

We must be clean to enter. Faith alone is insufficient. Even the demons believe in Jesus, and yet are damned.
 
faithful_servant said:
Of course. We sin every day. We ignore the voice of the Holy Spirit, we fail to allow God the proper place of complete authority over our lives in almost every minute of every day. Sin is what we do, asking for forgiveness is what we are called to, but neither by themselves can either negate or guarantee our relationship with God. It is only the relationship we have with Him that does that. Everything else is a reflection of that relationship.
Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 3: " Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Faith alone is insufficient. Our works are tested by fire, and if it is burned they will suffer loss. Why must this happen? We must be perfect to enter Heaven. Thus Purgatory, which cleanses us before we are able to attain the Beatific Vision. Purgatory is not a second chance, but it is the way God cleanses us to enter his presence, because we must be perfect to attain Heaven.
 
phattonez said:
Nowhere have I denied the necessity of faith or Christ's sacrifice.



The Revelation of John is quite clear: "But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life." - Apocalypse 21.

We must be clean to enter.

Psalm 24: Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord?
And who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lift up his soul to what is false,
and does not swear deceitfully.

We must be clean to enter. Faith alone is insufficient. Even the demons believe in Jesus, and yet are damned.
Click to expand...

Who is it that cleans us?? Is it Christ or us?? This is where the separation between lost and saved happens. If you can think for one second that you have the ability to be clean enough on your own efforts to stand in God's presence for the briefest of moments, then you completely miss the point of Christ's sacrifice. We CAN'T be righteous enough to be in God's presence and all of our efforts to do so only lead to life dominated by legalism and a loss of relationship to Him. No effort on our part, other than having a relationship with God can ever be good enough, it simple isn't possible and if it were, then Christ's death was in vain. Do you think that that you can be clean enough to qualify for eternity with God on your own efforts??
 
phattonez said:
1 Corinthians 3: " Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Faith alone is insufficient. Our works are tested by fire, and if it is burned they will suffer loss. Why must this happen? We must be perfect to enter Heaven. Thus Purgatory, which cleanses us before we are able to attain the Beatific Vision. Purgatory is not a second chance, but it is the way God cleanses us to enter his presence, because we must be perfect to attain Heaven.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but that's completely un-Biblical and makes the Cross a waste. It is ONLY through the shed blood of Christ that we are made clean, nothing else can do this, no effort on our part and nothing more on God's part. The Cross was a COMPLETE work, not a partial one.
 
faithful_servant said:
Sorry, but that's completely un-Biblical and makes the Cross a waste. It is ONLY through the shed blood of Christ that we are made clean, nothing else can do this, no effort on our part and nothing more on God's part. The Cross was a COMPLETE work, not a partial one.
Click to expand...


I am confused. How is quoting the bible being 'unBiblical'? You might disagree with the interpretation, but, the source for the claim is a direct bible quote.
 
faithful_servant said:
Who is it that cleans us?? Is it Christ or us?? This is where the separation between lost and saved happens. If you can think for one second that you have the ability to be clean enough on your own efforts to stand in God's presence for the briefest of moments, then you completely miss the point of Christ's sacrifice. We CAN'T be righteous enough to be in God's presence and all of our efforts to do so only lead to life dominated by legalism and a loss of relationship to Him. No effort on our part, other than having a relationship with God can ever be good enough, it simple isn't possible and if it were, then Christ's death was in vain. Do you think that that you can be clean enough to qualify for eternity with God on your own efforts??
Click to expand...

No, and so once again I stress that nowhere have I doubted the necessity of faith. I have merely made the point that:
1. Faith alone does not cleanse us from sin, as indicated by the fact that we can believe and still sin.
2. Only those that are perfect can enter Heaven.
3. Hence we must be purified from our sins to enter Heaven. Faith alone is not enough.

If faith alone is enough, then how are we perfected? Do you deny that those with faith can still give into their passions and sin?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom