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Is the Old Testament God actually Jesus to most Christians?

lizzie said:
Maybe things have changed since I was in the church, but in the one I grew up in, The OT God was a wrathful God, and the rules were punishable by extreme measures. Otoh, once Jesus came along, that changed altogether, and salvation became a matter of faith, and was not dependent on works, although good works were encouraged. Or maybe it was just a Baptist thing.
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It's largely a Protestant thing. Catholics believe that it is a matter of both faith and good works; sort of a "talk the talk" vs "walk the walk" kind of deal.

During the Reformation, a lot of Protestant sects actually decided to cut out parts of Bible which didn't reflect their position on the subject, so I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't an idea you saw a lot of in scripture growing up.
 
Amadeus said:
Really? God himself says that he's jealous, vengeful, and wrathful in the Old Testament.
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I know He says jealous. Don't recall Him saying vengeful or wrathful.
 
X Factor said:
I know He says jealous. Don't recall Him saying vengeful or wrathful.
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Maybe I'm thinking of Marvel's Odin. If so, my mistake. Anyway, he displays vengeance and wrath repeatedly, so it's a moot point.
 
lizzie said:
Maybe things have changed since I was in the church, but in the one I grew up in, The OT God was a wrathful God, and the rules were punishable by extreme measures. Otoh, once Jesus came along, that changed altogether, and salvation became a matter of faith, and was not dependent on works, although good works were encouraged. Or maybe it was just a Baptist thing.
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Baptists seem to preach that, I've heard them and other evangelical type Christians state the LDS are not Christian because we believe even though no matter what we do it is because of the mercy of God and Christ's Atonement that we gain salvation, we still have to have both faith and good works. Because we believe we also have to keep the commandments, they think that makes us not Christian when the New Testament clearly teaches that you must have good works also. Here are just a few of numerous verses that teach this:
Revelation 22:12-14
And behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be....
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


John 14:21,23
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him....
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

James Ch 2:
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You must resist sin:
James 4:6-10
6 . . . Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
 
Amadeus said:
Is the Old Testament God actually Jesus to most Christians? If so, how does that square with your beliefs, if you are a Christian?
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Well I'm an Atheist - but when I was a stout believer I saw them as separate entities that represented the whole concept. Jesus referred TO God and spoke TO God. To me it's hard to confuse the two.
 
Gathomas88 said:
It's largely a Protestant thing. Catholics believe that it is a matter of both faith and good works; sort of a "talk the talk" vs "walk the walk" kind of deal.
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True, we believe the sacrifice of Jesus was enough and that we cannot ever be worthy of salvation based on anything we do.

During the Reformation, a lot of Protestant sects actually decided to cut out parts of Bible which didn't reflect their position on the subject, so I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't an idea you saw a lot of in scripture growing up.
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It's interesting you say that. I've been to Catholic mass and to Baptist and non denominational services, and the Baptist/Non Dom church's seem a lot more Bible centered.
 
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Amadeus said:
Maybe I'm thinking of Marvel's Odin. If so, my mistake. Anyway, he displays vengeance and wrath repeatedly, so it's a moot point.
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If you say so.
 
laska said:
Baptists seem to preach that, I've heard them and other evangelical type Christians state the LDS are not Christian because we believe even though no matter what we do it is because of the mercy of God and Christ's Atonement that we gain salvation, we still have to have both faith and good works. Because we believe we also have to keep the commandments, they think that makes us not Christian when the New Testament clearly teaches that you must have good works also. Here are just a few of numerous verses that teach this:
Revelation 22:12-14
And behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be....
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


John 14:21,23
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him....
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

James Ch 2:
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You must resist sin:
James 4:6-10
6 . . . Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
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Can you tell me what your understanding of who Jesus is?
 
X Factor said:
If you say so.
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This guy says it far better than I could:

The wrath of God has been revealed throughout the entire history of humanity. It was implied when Adam was warned he would die if he disbelieved and disobeyed God ( Gen 2:17 ) and when he revealed that Satan's head would be crushed ( Gen 3:15 ) because God's loving character, will, and purposes were challenged by Satan and Adam and Eve. God revealed the execution of his wrath when he drove Adam and Eve from Paradise ( Gen 3:24-25 ). God revealed his displeasure when, placing a curse on Cain, he banished him ( Gen 4:11 ). When he destroyed the cosmos by the flood God demonstrated the results of his grief and wrath with his image-bearer (Gen. 6-8).

The revelation of God's wrath was clearly demonstrated by means of the plagues of Egypt and the destruction of Pharaoh's army ( Exod 15:7 ). His anger and wrath also arose against Israel with whom he had covenanted when they worshiped the golden calf ( Exod 32:11 ), and when they rebelled after hearing the report of ten of the twelve spies ( Numbers 14:11-12 Numbers 14:23 ; Heb 3:10-11 ; 4:3 ). Moses warned of the consequences of God's wrath for Israel if as a people they broke the covenant ( Deut 11:17 ; Deuteronomy 29:23 Deuteronomy 29:28 ); because God's love was offended they would experience famine, defeat, exile, and death. The Chronicler referred to God's wrath repeatedly because Israel, God's covenant people, ignored, rejected, and spurned his love, his will, and their life with God-given blessings. The psalmists referred to the wrath of God against nations ( Psalm 2:5 ; Psalms 59:5 Psalms 59:13 ; 78:49 ; 79:6 ), against personal enemies ( Psalm 55:3 ), against the covenant people for their sin ( Psalm 89:46 ; 92:7 ; 95:11 ), and against the psalmists themselves ( Psalm 88:7 ). The prophets likewise prophesied concerning the wrath of God executed upon nations for their hatred of and destruction wreaked on the covenant people ( Isa 13:13 ; 14:6 ). The anger of God was demonstrated in the exile of Israel ( Isa 60:11 ).

The wrath of God that the New Testament speaks of is to be expressed in judgments on a wicked, rebellious covenant people ( Matt 3:7 ; Luke 3:7 ), and upon those who refuse to believe in and accept Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world ( John 3:36 ). Paul repeatedly warns about the wrath of God ( Rom 1:18 ; 2:5 ), from which people are to be saved ( Rom 5:9 ). All people are under wrath ( Eph 2:3 ), and the only way to escape this wrath, which is sure to be in full and fierce force in the judgment day, is to believe in Jesus Christ who bore the curse of the covenant and endured the wrath of God when he was crucified. This same Christ will execute divine wrath and vengeance to its fullest degree in judgment day ( Rev 6:16-17 ).
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X Factor said:
Can you tell me what your understanding of who Jesus is?
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You may have missed a previous post by me in this thread that gives my view on that. Here is a cut and paste from mormon.org that gives The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' view on who Jesus is:

What do Mormons believe about Jesus Christ? Do Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God. His birth, life, death, and resurrection fulfilled the many prophecies contained in the scriptures concerning the coming of a Savior. He was the Creator, He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge (see Isaiah 9:6, 53:3-7; Psalms 22:16-18).

Under the direction of our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth (John 1:10; Hebrews 1:2).

When Jesus lived on the earth (approximately 2,000 years ago), He led a perfect life. He taught by word and example how people should live in love of God and others.

Through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by giving His life on the cross—that is, by performing the Atonement —Jesus Christ saves us from our sins (1 Peter 2:21) as we follow Him. Because of the Atonement, you can be forgiven of your sins when you sincerely repent (Book of Mormon, Mosiah 26:30).

Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ saved us from death. Because He overcame death, we will all be given the gift of resurrection, that is to say our spirits will be eternally re-united with our bodies (Acts 24:15; 1 Corinthians 15:22). When life on this earth is over, Jesus Christ will be the final Judge (Acts 17:31; John 5:21-22; Acts 10:42).
 
X Factor said:
True, we believe the sacrifice of Jesus was enough and that we cannot ever be worthy of salvation based on anything.
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True. One cannot "buy" their way into heaven with good deeds. Ultimately, no one is truly worthy of eternal reward on their own merit, as no one is truly without sin in one way or another.

However, it should be noted that Christ-like deeds do work to bring a person closer to God, and to further their own spiritual development. As such, they can be said to hold religious value in the attainment of salvation.

I essentially view them as being a form of "spiritual exercise," for lack of a better metaphor. :lol:

The doctrine of good works also, arguably, helps to avoid the paradox you sometimes see in some more lax Protestant communities, where rather blatantly immoral people will run around bragging about how they're "saved" and "going to heaven" simply because they have "faith" even in spite of their unrepentantly sinful behavior.

Granted, you will sometimes see the Catholics with somewhat similar attitudes with regards to our own sacrament of Confession - i.e. "sin now, repent later." Personally, however, it is my belief that the more structured approach is more effective in maintaining discipline.

You are, of course, free to disagree with me on that, however. :)

It's interesting you say that. I've been to Catholic mass and to Baptist and non denominational services, and the Baptist/Non Dom church's seem a lot more Bible centered.
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While it is true that the Catholic Church places less emphasis on the Bible than Protestant sects, that does not mean that we do not value it's teachings. To the contrary, if you look at how the Church's liturgical year is structured, on the basis on Sunday masses alone, we go through the entire book every three years like clock work.

We simply view ourselves as being a direct continuation of the Apostlic line started by Christ. As such, we view the pronouncements of the various Popes and religious philosophers who have lived in the centuries since that era to hold equal weight with what is written in the scriptures.

In other words, we use the Bible as a starting point like everyone else. We simply add centuries worth of our own traditions on top of it.

It is also a fact of history that Martin Luther and a number of his contemporaries actually cut seven books from what is now the Protestant version of the Bible, because they did not agree with those books' teachings. Granted, they were all books in the Old Testament, rather than the New. However, that it did happen is undeniable.
 
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Amadeus said:
If Jesus is God, then chronology is irrelevant. He speaks for God, as God, and carries God's message. My question is if God the Father (who is actually Jesus) is the Old Testament God. In which case, wouldn't Jewish law (e.g. The Ten Commandments) be very relevant to Christians?
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Christians are Jews that believe Christ is the Messiah AND Gentiles that have been grafted into the Vine of God's Chosen People. The New Testament is completion of the Old Testament. To take the New Testament without the Old is to take the Bible out of context. There is no New Testament God and Old Testament God. There just is God; all powerful and timeless.
 
laska said:
You may have missed a previous post by me in this thread that gives my view on that. Here is a cut and paste from mormon.org that gives The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' view on who Jesus is:

What do Mormons believe about Jesus Christ? Do Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God. His birth, life, death, and resurrection fulfilled the many prophecies contained in the scriptures concerning the coming of a Savior. He was the Creator, He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge (see Isaiah 9:6, 53:3-7; Psalms 22:16-18).

Under the direction of our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth (John 1:10; Hebrews 1:2).

When Jesus lived on the earth (approximately 2,000 years ago), He led a perfect life. He taught by word and example how people should live in love of God and others.

Through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by giving His life on the cross—that is, by performing the Atonement —Jesus Christ saves us from our sins (1 Peter 2:21) as we follow Him. Because of the Atonement, you can be forgiven of your sins when you sincerely repent (Book of Mormon, Mosiah 26:30).

Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ saved us from death. Because He overcame death, we will all be given the gift of resurrection, that is to say our spirits will be eternally re-united with our bodies (Acts 24:15; 1 Corinthians 15:22). When life on this earth is over, Jesus Christ will be the final Judge (Acts 17:31; John 5:21-22; Acts 10:42).
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If you know, is there anything LDS believes about Jesus not taught in other Christian religions. I ask because I have a vague memory of someone telling me that LDS believed others were also the sons of God i.e Jesus was just sort of the example to follow and that's it's possible to be on an equal plane as Him. Totally correct me where I have it wrong.
 
X Factor said:
If you know, is there anything LDS believes about Jesus not taught in other Christian religions. I ask because I have a vague memory of someone telling me that LDS believed others were also the sons of God i.e Jesus was just sort of the example to follow and that's it's possible to be on an equal plane as Him. Totally correct me where I have it wrong.
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In post 38 of this thread, I went over how the LDS believe that all of our spirits existed prior to birth on this earth and that all of us are literal offspring of a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother with Jesus, the pre-mortal Jehovah, being the first born of our family and our eldest brother. This means our species are gods. All of us are sons and daughters of God with the potential to become like Them. The gospel of Christ is the path that God has created where we can become like our Divine Parents. Jesus gave us the perfect example. While the LDS are the only Christian religion that teaches this, it is plainly taught in the New Testament.
 
lizzie said:
Well, not really. Prior to Jesus becoming incarnate, the old testament God was of the old law. It is considered a radical change in not only the concept of God, but in what is required for salvation. Yes, Jewish law (to the extent of the ten commandments) is relevant, but the vast majority of Judaic law is not.
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Moral law is still in force. The ceremonial law is not.
 
lizzie said:
They believe in a messiah concept. Christians believe that Jesus is just that. Jews (for the most part) do not. Jewish law was not based on Jesus, or anyone like him. If it had been, the path to salvation would have been the same as the Christian belief. The hope was the same. The beliefs are not. The concept that Christians have of God prior to Jesus incarnation was one of the wrathful and vengeful God. Jesus changed that.
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Not really. Jesus, a Jew and a rabbi, gives the summary of the law in Mark 12:30: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself." The path to salvation is the same as it's always been. Jesus ushered in the ministry of the Holy Spirit to all of us, Jews and Gentiles alike, as a guide and comforter.
 
X Factor said:
It's interesting you say that. I've been to Catholic mass and to Baptist and non denominational services, and the Baptist/Non Dom church's seem a lot more Bible centered.
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Huh? The Mass is almost entirely scripture, and when it's not, it points to scripture.
 
obvious Child said:
Again, interpretation:

Also, remember that it says the following “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

That seems clear to me you are not to want anything your neighbor has. Even if that neighbor is a farmer and wants to trade food for your woodwork and you're really hungry.
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That is an utterly silly interpretation, and you are evidently arguing for the sake of it. The term "covet" has nothing to do with trade. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it.
 
lizzie said:
They believe in a messiah concept. Christians believe that Jesus is just that. Jews (for the most part) do not. Jewish law was not based on Jesus, or anyone like him. If it had been, the path to salvation would have been the same as the Christian belief. The hope was the same. The beliefs are not. The concept that Christians have of God prior to Jesus incarnation was one of the wrathful and vengeful God. Jesus changed that.
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Actually it was changing for centuries before that. There was a very distinct change in how things were viewed long before Jesus. It is just that the Jewish faith has a very big diffrence of looking at their scriptures, and also they have a totally different concept of what the Messiah is supposed to be.
 
Amadeus said:
Is the Old Testament God actually Jesus to most Christians? If so, how does that square with your beliefs, if you are a Christian?
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To most Christians they are one and the same as God is 3 in 1.
Christ is referenced multiple times in the old testament, however it seems that God the Father takes a more predominant role.
 
countryboy said:
That is an utterly silly interpretation, and you are evidently arguing for the sake of it. The term "covet" has nothing to do with trade. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it.
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Because you said so? You are trying to argue that only your interpretation is correct. Which suggests are you extremely narrow minded. Religious apologists will always try to ignore the bad sides of their religion just as you are doing.
 
countryboy said:
That is an utterly silly interpretation, and you are evidently arguing for the sake of it. The term "covet" has nothing to do with trade. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it.
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Possibly covet in a jealous way( grass looking greener)

All of those commandments are written on a followers heart. They would never do those things to start with, if they have love.
 
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