• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Christian Baptism

What is adequate baptism in Christianity

  • Have to be immersed

    Votes: 3 30.0%

  • Sprinkling of Holy Water works

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Pouring of Water over the head gets it done

    Votes: 1 10.0%

  • Declaration of faith to another is all that is required

    Votes: 1 10.0%

  • Accepting Jesus is enough without water/declarations

    Votes: 4 40.0%

  • Other method--Please share

    Votes: 1 10.0%

  • I am not a Christian and cannot resist putting in my two cents

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    10
Declan

Declan

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
4,670
Reaction score
1,926
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
I ask that atheists and non-Christians refrain from passive-agressive posting trying to derail threads and let those who have something substantive to offer have this discussion please.

There are different types of Baptism in Christian practice. The three most common are the full dunk immersion, the sprinkling of Holy Water (aspersion), and the pouring of water on the head (affusion). Some believe that baptism as a rite is not necessary and that Baptism by Declaration is all that is needed (for example: you declare your faith in Jesus to another) while an even smaller minority seem to believe that just being a person who accepts Jesus is all that is required--no water or public declaration necessary.


Where do you folks come down on this issue?
 
Declan said:
I ask that atheists and non-Christians refrain from passive-agressive posting trying to derail threads and let those who have something substantive to offer have this discussion please.

There are different types of Baptism in Christian practice. The three most common are the full dunk immersion, the sprinkling of Holy Water (aspersion), and the pouring of water on the head (affusion). Some believe that baptism as a rite is not necessary and that Baptism by Declaration is all that is needed (for example: you declare your faith in Jesus to another) while an even smaller minority seem to believe that just being a person who accepts Jesus is all that is required--no water or public declaration necessary.


Where do you folks come down on this issue?
Click to expand...

Baptism is necessary for salvation.

It can be administered either by immersion or by pouring, but the prescripts of the conference of bishops should be observed. Baptism requires for validity that water flow on the head, thus sprinkling should only be used in an emergency when there is not enough water to pour, and if so used baptism should be conditionally repeated later, if the person lives.
 
Paleocon said:
Baptism is necessary for salvation.

It can be administered either by immersion or by pouring, but the prescripts of the conference of bishops should be observed. Baptism requires for validity that water flow on the head, thus sprinkling should only be used in an emergency when there is not enough water to pour, and if so used baptism should be conditionally repeated later, if the person lives.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your contribution. So a child who dies before baptism cannot go to heaven by your measure?
 
Declan said:
I ask that atheists and non-Christians refrain from passive-agressive posting trying to derail threads and let those who have something substantive to offer have this discussion please.

There are different types of Baptism in Christian practice. The three most common are the full dunk immersion, the sprinkling of Holy Water (aspersion), and the pouring of water on the head (affusion). Some believe that baptism as a rite is not necessary and that Baptism by Declaration is all that is needed (for example: you declare your faith in Jesus to another) while an even smaller minority seem to believe that just being a person who accepts Jesus is all that is required--no water or public declaration necessary.


Where do you folks come down on this issue?
Click to expand...
Salvation is achieved by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ. Baptism is not required to be saved, but it is a commandment by The Lord Jesus Christ, and is expected to be obeyed.
 
Declan said:
Thank you for your contribution. So a child who dies before baptism cannot go to heaven by your measure?
Click to expand...

That is correct, such a child would go to limbo, a state of perfect natural (but not supernatural) happiness.

It should also be noted that there are those who hold that implicit baptism of desire could apply to infants, yet since the matter is not doctrinal, I hold to the historically more widely held opinion.

It should also be noted that the concept of baptism of blood* and baptism of desire** are of faith, and that the idea that baptism of desire could extend implicitly to those persons ignorant of the faith who are of extraordinary natural virtue belongs to the doctrine of the Church, although the extension of this to all unbaptized who are not damned, is merely speculative.

*A martyr for the faith is received immediately into Heaven, even if never sacramentally baptized.

**Those who die while awaiting baptism are excused form original sin.
 
countryboy said:
Salvation is achieved by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ. Baptism is not required to be saved, but it is a commandment by The Lord Jesus Christ, and is expected to be obeyed.
Click to expand...

"baptism now saves you"
 
I am no longer Christian, but was raised in a very devout Christian home. Baptists do the full immersion thing, because that is apparently what they think was the New Testament standard (in the river).
 
countryboy said:
Salvation is achieved by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ. Baptism is not required to be saved, but it is a commandment by The Lord Jesus Christ, and is expected to be obeyed.
Click to expand...

Thank you as well for your participation. What happens if someone breaks the commandment and dies by your measure as a matter of Christian doctrine?
 
Paleocon said:
That is correct, such a child would go to limbo, a state of perfect natural (but not supernatural) happiness.

It should also be noted that there are those who hold that implicit baptism of desire could apply to infants, yet since the matter is not doctrinal, I hold to the historically more widely held opinion.

It should also be noted that the concept of baptism of blood* and baptism of desire** are of faith, and that the idea that baptism of desire could extend implicitly to those persons ignorant of the faith who are of extraordinary natural virtue belongs to the doctrine of the Church, although the extension of this to all unbaptized who are not damned, is merely speculative.

*A martyr for the faith is received immediately into Heaven, even if never sacramentally baptized.

**Those who die while awaiting baptism are excused form original sin.
Click to expand...
There is no Scriptural basis for "limbo".
 
lizzie said:
I am no longer Christian, but was raised in a very devout Christian home. Baptists do the full immersion thing, because that is apparently what they think was the New Testament standard (in the river).
Click to expand...

Does "very devout" mean "fundamentalist"? What were you taught about children who die before they were baptized if anything? Thanks you for your participation as well.
 
Declan said:
Does "very devout" mean "fundamentalist"? What were you taught about children who die before they were baptized if anything? Thanks you for your participation as well.
Click to expand...

In my home, it meant that we went to church virtually every time the doors were open. NOt just Sunday mornings, or religious holidays. My parents were actual Chrisitians who lived what they believed, and didn't see it as their right to condemn. Very libertarian wrt religion.

And to further clarify what they believed: it wasn't necessary to be baptized, but baptism was a formality that one underwent voluntarily, as a show of sincerity of faith. Some of the Christian sects believe that baptism is required. Ours did not. It was symbolic.
 
Last edited:
Paleocon said:
1 Peter 3:21
Click to expand...

Again, a closer examination of the text in context, shows this does not prove baptism is a requirement for salvation.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which[c] he went and proclaimed[d] to the spirits in prison, 20 because[e] they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him
Click to expand...
.
 
Declan said:
Thank you as well for your participation. What happens if someone breaks the commandment and dies by your measure as a matter of Christian doctrine?
Click to expand...

If they truly accepted Jesus Christ as Lord of Lords and savior, they will be in His presence for eternity. Is there any Scriptural evidence that the thief on the cross next to Jesus was baptized? If he was not, then why did Jesus say to him, "...today you will be with me in paradise..."?
 
Declan said:
Thank you for your contribution. So a child who dies before baptism cannot go to heaven by your measure?
Click to expand...

Baptists (the ones I grew up around) believe that no child is condemned to hell, and that only after the age of conscience, he/she is responsible for accepting or rejecting faith.
 
countryboy said:
There is no Scriptural basis for "limbo".
Click to expand...

1. There is no scriptural basis for the idea that everything is in scripture.

2. A state of natural happiness is what was almost universally believed before Christ to befall the just. The concept of supernatural beatitude was distinct to Christianity, it does not follow from human nature, but only from revealed truth. Thus, those without revealed truth, go to such a state.

countryboy said:
Again, a closer examination of the text in context, shows this does not prove baptism is a requirement for salvation.

.
Click to expand...

Assumptions made without substantiation, can be summarily dismissed.
 
Baptism is not an absolute necessity for salvation. However, it was commanded by Jesus and should be observed if possible.


I don't think the method itself is overly important, though I tend to favor immersion as being more appropriately symbolic, when feasible.
 
Declan said:
I ask that atheists and non-Christians refrain from passive-agressive posting trying to derail threads and let those who have something substantive to offer have this discussion please.

There are different types of Baptism in Christian practice. The three most common are the full dunk immersion, the sprinkling of Holy Water (aspersion), and the pouring of water on the head (affusion). Some believe that baptism as a rite is not necessary and that Baptism by Declaration is all that is needed (for example: you declare your faith in Jesus to another) while an even smaller minority seem to believe that just being a person who accepts Jesus is all that is required--no water or public declaration necessary.


Where do you folks come down on this issue?
Click to expand...

I was by immersion . I have no opinion on the validity of other methods. My church has practiced all forms in the past.

As a practical matter it's easier to sprinkle. Scripture is clear, works are not nessecary for salvation .
 
EMNofSeattle said:
I was by immersion . I have no opinion on the validity of other methods. My church has practiced all forms in the past.

As a practical matter it's easier to sprinkle. Scripture is clear, works are not nessecary for salvation .
Click to expand...

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"
 
Paleocon said:
1. There is no scriptural basis for the idea that everything is in scripture.

2. A state of natural happiness is what was almost universally believed before Christ to befall the just. The concept of supernatural beatitude was distinct to Christianity, it does not follow from human nature, but only from revealed truth. Thus, those without revealed truth, go to such a state.
Click to expand...

1. Scripture warns against reading anything into the text which isn't there.

2. See #1. :D

Paleocon said:
Assumptions made without substantiation, can be summarily dismissed.
Click to expand...

I posted the relevant text, which in my opinion, proved my point. Of course, you are free to summarily dismiss anything I say. Please feel free to pick apart the posted text if you disagree with me.
 
Paleocon said:
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only"
Click to expand...

Justification is not the same as salvation. Could you please tell me which Bible translation you are using. I assume it's the Catholic Bible, but I just want to be sure. Thanks. And I am not trying to be adversarial here, nothing personal at all. :)
 
lizzie said:
Baptists (the ones I grew up around) believe that no child is condemned to hell, and that only after the age of conscience, he/she is responsible for accepting or rejecting faith.
Click to expand...

Then what about the man who lives to be 100 in Africa or China who has never seen or read the Bible or been exposed to Christianity? How can they accept or reject that which they do not know?
 
EMNofSeattle said:
I was by immersion . I have no opinion on the validity of other methods. My church has practiced all forms in the past.

As a practical matter it's easier to sprinkle. Scripture is clear, works are not nessecary for salvation .
Click to expand...

The Bible contradicts itself on works, but that is another topic altogether (James 2:17 v. Ephesians 2:9)
 
Declan said:
Then what about the man who lives to be 100 in Africa or China who has never seen or read the Bible or been exposed to Christianity? How can they accept or reject that which they do not know?
Click to expand...

To be honest, that is the exact question which eventually led me to give up dogmatic Christianity, and go in search of answers. The ones I found have essentially no resemblance to any formal religion of any culture. I could not accept that a god would do that. My concept of god is a very uncommon one. It holds no favor ecxept in that it is a part of me, and I, a part of it. It isn't something I worship. It is something with which I interact and commune.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom