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Scriptures that justify homosexual lifestyle vs Scriptures that condemn it

vasuderatorrent said:
Here is a quote from the OP:

vasuderatorrent said:
Old Testament references get 1 point. New Testament scriptures get 4 points. There is no cheating. You can post a New Testament scripture that has nothing to do with your argument and still get 4 points.
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Quit whining and start quoting.
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So, really, then, I should not have been surprised. You never intended this to be any kind of honest discussion in the first place, just a silly game to score points by citing random scriptures, regardless of whether they have anything to do with the claimed subject.

If that's how we're going to play, then I claim each verse of Revelation Chapter 22.

  1. And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
  2. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
  3. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
  4. And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
  5. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
  6. And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
  7. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
  8. And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
  9. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
  10. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
  11. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
  12. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
  13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
  14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
  15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
  16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
  17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
  18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
  19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
  20. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
  21. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

That's 21 verses, 84 points for the side that claims that the Bible does not support nor “justify” homosexuality.
 
And now, in a similar manner, I claim Psalms Chapter 119. 176 verses, 176 points.

I had to cut the quoted chapter short below, due to posting size constraints, but I claim the whole chapter for my side.

  1. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.
  2. Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
  3. They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
  4. Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
  5. O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
  6. Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
  7. I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
  8. I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
  9. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
  10. With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
  11. Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
  12. Blessed art thou, O Lord: teach me thy statutes.
  13. With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
  14. I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
  15. I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
  16. I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.
  17. Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.
  18. Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
  19. I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.
  20. My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times.
  21. Thou hast rebuked the proud that are cursed, which do err from thy commandments.
  22. Remove from me reproach and contempt; for I have kept thy testimonies.
  23. Princes also did sit and speak against me: but thy servant did meditate in thy statutes.
  24. Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors.
  25. My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.
  26. I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes.
  27. Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.
  28. My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.
  29. Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.
  30. I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.
  31. I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O Lord, put me not to shame.
  32. I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.
  33. Teach me, O Lord, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.
  34. Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
  35. Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.
  36. Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.
  37. Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
  38. Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.
  39. Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.
  40. Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.
  41. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O Lord, even thy salvation, according to thy word.
  42. So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.
  43. And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.
  44. So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
  45. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
  46. I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.
  47. And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.
  48. My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.
  49. Remember the word unto thy servant, upon which thou hast caused me to hope.
  50. This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.
  51. The proud have had me greatly in derision: yet have I not declined from thy law.
  52. I remembered thy judgments of old, O Lord; and have comforted myself.
  53. Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.
  54. Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage.
  55. I have remembered thy name, O Lord, in the night, and have kept thy law.
  56. This I had, because I kept thy precepts.
  57. Thou art my portion, O Lord: I have said that I would keep thy words.
  58. I entreated thy favour with my whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word.
  59. I thought on my ways, and turned my feet unto thy testimonies.
  60. I made haste, and delayed not to keep thy commandments.
  61. The bands of the wicked have robbed me: but I have not forgotten thy law.
  62. At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments.
  63. I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts.
  64. The earth, O Lord, is full of thy mercy: teach me thy statutes.
  65. Thou hast dealt well with thy servant, O Lord, according unto thy word.
  66. Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.
  67. Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.
  68. Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.
  69. The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart.
  70. Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.
  71. It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.
  72. The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.
  73. Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.
  74. They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.
  75. I know, O Lord, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.
  76. Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant.
  77. Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law is my delight.
  78. Let the proud be ashamed; for they dealt perversely with me without a cause: but I will meditate in thy precepts.
  79. Let those that fear thee turn unto me, and those that have known thy testimonies.
  80. Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed.
  81. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.
  82. Mine eyes fail for thy word, saying, When wilt thou comfort me?
  83. For I am become like a bottle in the smoke; yet do I not forget thy statutes.
  84. How many are the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me?
  85. The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.
  86. All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.
  87. They had almost consumed me upon earth; but I forsook not thy precepts.
  88. Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth.
  89. For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.
  90. Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.
  91. They continue this day according to thine ordinances: for all are thy servants.
  92. Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.
  93. I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.
  94. I am thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts.
  95. The wicked have waited for me to destroy me: but I will consider thy testimonies.
  96. I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.
  97. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
  98. Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
  99. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
 
We could continue to play this game until the whole Bible has been cited and claimed, but I think the point has been made. This is no longer (and in fact, never was) any kind of honest discussion as to whether the Bible does or does not “justify” homosexuality,
 
Does everybody want to concede that there is no scripture that justifies a homosexual lifestyle? Captain America seems to think that I am being one-sided. I have given fair opportunity to both sides to present scripture to justify their theological position on open homosexuality. We can just call this off if everybody wants to. Does anybody have any more Bible verses that they want to use before I call it a draw? I know that few people have used Bible verses. I wanted to give everybody a chance to use them if they are going to.

ptif219 said:
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CLAX1911 said:
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Bob Blaylock said:
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chromium said:
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Captain America said:
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Ramoss said:
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orphanslug said:
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chromium said:
By around 300 AD, yes it was. The barbarians who conquered it and the dark ages that followed kept up the oppression of homosexuals. By 500s, Spain also changed to the death penalty on account of interpretation of sodom/gomorrah and fear that they would meet the same fate if they didn't crack down (never mind that rome flourished for 1000 years without these laws)

I know it's a valued part of christian lore to focus on its martyrs, but that was by comparison quite short lived.
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So you show no proof

Of The Ten Bloody Persecutions Which The Christians Suffered Under The Hea Then Emperors Of Rome; The First Of Which Began In The Reign Of Nero, A. D. 66
 
Why would you think that I think you are one-sided? I really haven't thought about you, one way or another, at all, to be honest.

Further, I do not seem to ever recall any scripture that says, "Blessed art thou who smoketh pole." I seem to recall saying there is no scripture I am aware of that "justifies," homosexuality. Why would there be? Was there ever really any question about that?

I merely stated my opinion about the gays, and the judging and intolerance thereof, and used biblical scripture to legitimize my opinion. I never said there was any "justification" regarding homosexuality. No revelation there.
 
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vasuderatorrent said:
Does everybody want to concede that there is no scripture that justifies a homosexual lifestyle? Captain America seems to think that I am being one-sided. I have given fair opportunity to both sides to present scripture to justify their theological position on open homosexuality. We can just call this off if everybody wants to. Does anybody have any more Bible verses that they want to use before I call it a draw? I know that few people have used Bible verses. I wanted to give everybody a chance to use them if they are going to.
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It's not a lifestyle, try to understand that at least.

It's really a very small part of one's life. Get up > eat breakfast > brush teeth > go to work/school. Sound familiar?
 
chromium said:
It's not a lifestyle, try to understand that at least.

It's really a very small part of one's life. Get up > eat breakfast > brush teeth > go to work/school. Sound familiar?
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The only difference is you're simply being fabulous while you do it! :cool:
 
Captain America said:
I seem to recall saying there is no scripture I am aware of that "justifies," homosexuality. Why would there be? Was there ever really any question about that?
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Yes there have been divisive forces in play over this issue for several decades. There have been mainstream dominations split over this very issue. Some churches say, "It's fine." Some churches say, "It's not fine." The church splits into two groups but neither group has thrown their Bibles in the trash and refused to use them.

One of them is wrong. I wanted to hear the argument from both sides but very few people participating in this thread are using scripture to make their case one way or the other.
 
vasuderatorrent said:
Does everybody want to concede that there is no scripture that justifies a homosexual lifestyle? Captain America seems to think that I am being one-sided. I have given fair opportunity to both sides to present scripture to justify their theological position on open homosexuality. We can just call this off if everybody wants to. Does anybody have any more Bible verses that they want to use before I call it a draw? I know that few people have used Bible verses. I wanted to give everybody a chance to use them if they are going to.
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I thought I basically said just that. The question is reasonable, why would scripture of all things be something that has homosexual lifestyle supporting text? I know of no Bible verse that supports the notion, even taken out of context would be a stretch.

Who cares what Capitan America thinks? Looking to the Bible for text to support a homosexual lifestyle is kin to looking at the Koran for women's rights equality.
 
OrphanSlug said:
I thought I basically said just that. The question is reasonable, why would scripture of all things be something that has homosexual lifestyle supporting text? I know of no Bible verse that supports the notion, even taken out of context would be a stretch.

Who cares what Capitan America thinks? Looking to the Bible for text to support a homosexual lifestyle is kin to looking at the Koran for women's rights equality.
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Exactly.
 
OrphanSlug said:
I thought I basically said just that. The question is reasonable, why would scripture of all things be something that has homosexual lifestyle supporting text? I know of no Bible verse that supports the notion, even taken out of context would be a stretch.
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There are verses that justify a solitary homosexual act. There are verses that justify a single theft. There are verse that justify a single murderous act. These type of things can be justified through grace. Open rebellion where you say, "F--- God. I will continue to commit homosexual acts. I will continue to steal. I will continue to murder." are not justified in scripture and do not fit under the scope of grace, mercy or forgiveness.
 
vasuderatorrent said:
There are verses that justify a solitary homosexual act. There are verses that justify a single theft. There are verse that justify a single murderous act. These type of things can be justified through grace. Open rebellion where you say, "F--- God. I will continue to commit homosexual acts. I will continue to steal. I will continue to murder." are not justified in scripture and do not fit under the scope of grace, mercy or forgiveness.
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Show them
 
vasuderatorrent said:
There are verses that justify a solitary homosexual act. There are verses that justify a single theft. There are verse that justify a single murderous act. These type of things can be justified through grace.
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I would disagree with this way of putting it.

In our fallen state, all of us will commit sins from time to time.

Jesus' sacrifice and grace makes it possible for us to repent of our sins, and to be forgiven of them. This does not, in any way, justify our sins. Our sins, by their nature, are unjust, even if we are forgiven of them and saved from the consequences thereof.


vasuderatorrent said:
Open rebellion where you say, "F--- God. I will continue to commit homosexual acts. I will continue to steal. I will continue to murder." are not justified in scripture and do not fit under the scope of grace, mercy or forgiveness.
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vasuderatorrent said:
There are verses that justify a solitary homosexual act. There are verses that justify a single theft. There are verse that justify a single murderous act. These type of things can be justified through grace. Open rebellion where you say, "F--- God. I will continue to commit homosexual acts. I will continue to steal. I will continue to murder." are not justified in scripture and do not fit under the scope of grace, mercy or forgiveness.
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Now I think you are bending the interpretation of those texts to mean what you want them to mean. A very common mistake with religious text and eloquent explanation of why faith tends to splinter, but more to the point why religious text tends to survive the ages. In the right hands, one can make scripture into what is needed at the time.

That said, I would like to see the scriptures you are suggesting mean what you think it means.
 
OrphanSlug said:
I thought I basically said just that. The question is reasonable, why would scripture of all things be something that has homosexual lifestyle supporting text? I know of no Bible verse that supports the notion, even taken out of context would be a stretch.

Who cares what Capitan America thinks? Looking to the Bible for text to support a homosexual lifestyle is kin to looking at the Koran for women's rights equality.
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That's an interesting parallel, since the Koran itself makes no such distinctions. Poor equality or women's rights are all in the interpretations.
 
OrphanSlug said:
Now I think you are bending the interpretation of those texts to mean what you want them to mean. A very common mistake with religious text and eloquent explanation of why faith tends to splinter, but more to the point why religious text tends to survive the ages. In the right hands, one can make scripture into what is needed at the time.

That said, I would like to see the scriptures you are suggesting mean what you think it means.
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Post #3 in this thread.
 
The score is 18 to 34. The breakdown is as follows:

Condemners 2 Old Testament references and 4 New Testament references
Justifiers 5 New Testament references, 4 Old Testament references and 10 bonus points for touching a Bible.

Bob Blaylock, I almost didn't count your reference at all. It was not accompanied by an argument. I thought I would be lenient since you spent so much time.

Example of four points said:
Being gay makes Jesus cry:

John 11:35 KJV Jesus wept.
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Example of four points said:
Gays are bad.

The entire Chapter of Romans 1
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Note: Quoting the entire Chapter of Romans 1 is only 4 points and not 128 points.

I'm sorry that you took so much time in posting but that wasn't the rules.
 
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