The Breaking of the Bread

tosca1 said:

I'm not saying Catholics teach cannibalism.


I am saying, if one believes that he is eating a human flesh literally - that would be practicing cannibalism in a way, since you believe you are eating an actual flesh. The person believing that will probably not be conscious of the implication at all, and doing it innocently.

The sin of adultery comes to mind. What did Jesus say about committing adultery? Just thinking about having sex with another person is considered an adultery.

What about if you think you're eating human flesh?

We have to consider the sly influence of Satan at every turn, thus I likened the act as a possible offending insult to God (inverted cross).

I don't mean to hurt anyone, but I'm just expressing a point of view.

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That's what the Pagans used to say about Christians, they practiced cannibalism. You don't want to be in that club.

tosca1 said:

The verse you gave clearly speak of the congregation as the Church - not the building. As explained.

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1 Timothy 3:15 does not imply that. "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

How to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church. From that verse it sounds much more like a physical structure than just a congregation. Look even at the metaphor of pillars and ground, which is more related to an edifice than a simple group.

Irrelevant in what way? It shows clearly that the place or location isn't important after Jesus had died and Risen.

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All I see is an emphasis on the ending of the Old Covenant, that is the end of the Jewish worship and the beginning of Christian worship.

Okay Phattonez, if the Church is not the gathering of believers - what is a church?

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We can infer a few things from 1 Timothy 3:15. First, the Church will reveal to us the truth, as it belongs to God, so the Church will tell us only the truth. It will not change its doctrines as it cannot change them, because God does not change.

We can also look in John chapter 17: "11 And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one." The Church will be one.

And finally let's look to Matthew 28: "I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

So we will have one Church that which will defend the truth, and since God does not change, will never change its teachings. The Church will remain from the time of Jesus until now, never having changed and always teaching the truth. What Church can claim such a thing but the Catholic Church?

tosca1 said:

Augustine as late at 400 AD, quotes Cyprian as saying that the juice is offered in remembrance as a type and foreshadow of the blood of Christ:


""Observe" he (Cyprian) says, in presenting the cup, to maintain the custom handed down to us from the Lord, and to do nothing that our Lord has not first done for us: so that the cup which is offered in remembrance of Him should be mixed with wine. For, as Christ says, 'I am the true vine,' it follows that the blood of Christ is wine, not water; and the cup cannot appear to contain His blood by which we are redeemed and quickened, if the wine be absent; for by the wine is the blood of Christ typified, that blood which is foreshadowed and proclaimed in all the types and declarations of Scripture." (Augustine, On Christian Doctrine, book 4, ch 21, quoting Cyprian)

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Come on now Tosca, this is shameful. This passage is taken out of context. Augustine is answering the question here of whether the chalice before consecration should contain just wine, or water mixed with wine. He is not speaking about the reality of the sacrament (and note anyways that he calls it the blood of Christ). Check out Augustine's sermon 272:

Augustine said:

What you see on God's altar, you've already observed during the night that has now ended. But you've heard nothing about just what it might be, or what it might mean, or what great thing it might be said to symbolize. For what you see is simply bread and a cup - this is the information your eyes report. But your faith demands far subtler insight: the bread is Christ's body, the cup is Christ's blood.

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So are we done taking quotes out of context? Augustine is explicit in his belief, and any attempt to spin his words otherwise is deceit.

Augustine Sermon 272 on The Eucharist

The same situation prevails in the writings of Tertullian and Cyprian: ... both men when they speak with precision distinguish the symbol from what it represents. The bread was a "figure" of the body. But Tertullian turns the word figura against the Docetism of Marcion (IX.6). The language of symbolism does not help those who deny a real body to Jesus. The bread would not be a figure unless there was first a true body of which it was a figure. There is no shadow without a substance to cast the shadow. Similarly, for Cyprian, literal language about drinking Christ's blood is balanced by language of "remembrance" (X.5) and "representation" (IX.7). Both symbolism and realism are present in the thought of Cyprian and Tertullian. The symbolism concerns bread and wine as signs. (Early Christians Speak, Everett Ferguson, 1981, p 115)

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ntx-communion-transubstantiation

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I need these full quotes (less so for Tertullian since he later became a heretic). As we've seen, unless I get full quotes, the authors you are quoting tend to take things out of context and twist the real meaning of what someone says.

tosca1 said:

I'm not saying Catholics teach cannibalism.


I am saying, if one believes that he is eating a human flesh literally - that would be practicing cannibalism in a way, since you believe you are eating an actual flesh. The person believing that will probably not be conscious of the implication at all, and doing it innocently.

The sin of adultery comes to mind. What did Jesus say about committing adultery? Just thinking about having sex with another person is considered an adultery.

What about if you think you're eating human flesh?

We have to consider the sly influence of Satan at every turn, thus I likened the act as a possible offending insult to God (inverted cross).

I don't mean to hurt anyone, but I'm just expressing a point of view.

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Can the cannibalism charge be true? | Catholic Answers

Let's end this nonsense now.

tosca1 said:

Now, you're being silly.

Did Jesus refer to Himself as The Shepherd?

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I'm just saying, you can't call everything a metaphor, because then all of it is, even the parts you take literally. You have to make a case as to when He's being literal or metaphorical. I've made the case why He was literal here.

tosca1 said:

First of all I'm not denying the REAL PRESENCE OF JESUS CHRIST among the congregation. Anyway, what's "real" presence actually mean?

What did Jesus say again?


Matthew 18
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


So, with or without the Eucharist - Jesus is present! Now, that's REAL PRESENCE....that's what He said!

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Jesus is also everywhere since He is God. Does that mean that we should have as much reverence in a church as we do in the bathroom since He is present in both places? Most assuredly not! You're failing to allow the difference in degree. Jesus is substantially present in the Eucharist.

From St. Justin Martyr:

Justin Martyr said:

No one may share the Eucharist with us unless he believes that what we teach is true, unless he is washed in the regenerating waters of baptism for the remission of his sins, and unless he lives in accordance with the principles given us by Christ.

We do not consume the eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ our Savior became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words contained in the prayer of thanksgiving.

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https://www.crossroadsinitiative.co...st_in_the_Early_Church_St._Justin_Martyr.html