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Now here is a movement I can get behind

Logicman said:
Well, there's plenty of miracles in the Tanakh, as well as a boy raised from the dead. Do you not believe in those miracles?

As for Paul, he agrees with Jesus on the main points of Christianity - the resurrection, justification by faith, etc.

And by the way, Abram (Abraham) was justified righteous by faith also (Genesis 15:6), and that before the Law and before he was circumcised.
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I don't think you can understand the difference between history and a teaching story. As for Abraham being jsutified by faith.. it is because his faith gave him action. Proper action trumps belief .
 
RAMOSS said:
I don't think you can understand the difference between history and a teaching story. As for Abraham being jsutified by faith.. it is because his faith gave him action. Proper action trumps belief .
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It was Abraham's faith that produced his actions in Genesis 22, etc.

You don't sincerely teach about God until you first believe in him. So faith comes first.

There's a lot of Jews who believe they will have salvation based on what they've done. But what does the Prophet Isaiah say?

"..all our righteous acts are like filthy rags..."

Also, I would appreciate a firm yes or no on my previous question: There's plenty of miracles in the Tanakh, as well as a boy raised from the dead. Do you believe in those miracles?
 
Logicman said:
It was Abraham's faith that produced his actions in Genesis 22, etc.

You don't sincerely teach about God until you first believe in him. So faith comes first.

There's a lot of Jews who believe they will have salvation based on what they've done. But what does the Prophet Isaiah say?

"..all our righteous acts are like filthy rags..."

Also, I would appreciate a firm yes or no on my previous question: There's plenty of miracles in the Tanakh, as well as a boy raised from the dead. Do you believe in those miracles?
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You do not understand that the concept of 'salvation' that is in Isaiah is not the Christian salvation concept. That 'salvation is being saved in this life, rather than some mysterious afterlife. There is an equivocation about what 'salvation' is. Just like the concept of the Jewish Messiah has nothing to do with the the Christian concept of the Messiah. Christians used the word, but did not use the same meaning. That screws up their understanding of God.
 
RAMOSS said:
You do not understand that the concept of 'salvation' that is in Isaiah is not the Christian salvation concept. That 'salvation is being saved in this life, rather than some mysterious afterlife. There is an equivocation about what 'salvation' is. Just like the concept of the Jewish Messiah has nothing to do with the the Christian concept of the Messiah. Christians used the word, but did not use the same meaning. That screws up their understanding of God.
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Nope, you're mistaken.

And here's why the Jews missed their Messiah:

Why Israel Missed its Messiah « The Righter Report

And you're still dodging my previous question:

There's plenty of miracles in the Tanakh, as well as a boy raised from the dead. Do you believe in those miracles?

Yes or no?
 
Logicman said:
Nope, you're mistaken.

And here's why the Jews missed their Messiah:

Why Israel Missed its Messiah « The Righter Report

And you're still dodging my previous question:

There's plenty of miracles in the Tanakh, as well as a boy raised from the dead. Do you believe in those miracles?

Yes or no?
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No, actually, I don't. They are teaching stories. That is what you get wrong. You have always got wrong, and you will always get wrong. You don't understand Judaism. You never will, because you keep on trying to shove Christianity on it. It just doesn't fit.
 
brothern said:
Actually it hasn't. For the various books of the Bible, the oldest manuscripts often are within a decade or two (NT) or a century or two (OT) of when the 'general structure' of each book was completed. Translating those fragments shows the structure of the Bible's books have remained pretty consistent. Obviously there are minor changes in the text as well as changes to the interpretation of the texts, but as with the Bible, most secular and religious texts remain quite consistent.

Mind you reaching those 'general structures' was a messy. For example, the Pentateuch ("Torah") in OT and the Gospel of John in the NT are examples of books that demonstrate heavy editing by multiple authors.
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Oh nonsense, I was even a sunday school teacher fifty years ago, and I am well aware of the contents of the King James version, and on this forum I have seen depictions, especially of Genesis which are so different that If I hadn't been fairly well versed in the Bible, I couldn't have recognized the passages/
 
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doniston said:
Oh nonsense, I was even a sunday school teacher fifty years ago, and I am well aware of the contents of the King James version, and on this forum I have seen depictions, especially of Genesis which are so different that If I hadn't been fairly well versed in the Bible, I couldn't have recognized the passages/
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No, honest. At most there's been two translations for most of the NT. Greek to Latin, Latin to English. Others, like the King James Version, were translated directly from the Greek. That's why the Bible's redactions and errors and are still so strongly evident in the English versions. Take John 1. Verses 6-8 and 15 were added into a more original Johannine text. You can STILL tell that it was edit from any English version just by considering the narrative flow. If there had been a cycle of 'countless translations,' we would have lost that ability by now.
 
RAMOSS said:
No, actually, I don't. They are teaching stories. That is what you get wrong. You have always got wrong, and you will always get wrong. You don't understand Judaism. You never will, because you keep on trying to shove Christianity on it. It just doesn't fit.
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Hey - there's plenty of Jews who believe the miracles of God in the OT so I don't have anything wrong.

But let's put that aside for the moment.

Do you believe God created the heavens and the earth?
 
Logicman said:
Hey - there's plenty of Jews who believe the miracles of God in the OT so I don't have anything wrong.

But let's put that aside for the moment.

Do you believe God created the heavens and the earth?
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Yes, there are. But, it is not required to be a Jew to believe it is more than a teaching story. That's what you don't understand about Judaism.
 
RAMOSS said:
Yes, there are. But, it is not required to be a Jew to believe it is more than a teaching story. That's what you don't understand about Judaism.
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Once again, do you believe God created the heavens and the earth?
 
Logicman said:
Once again, do you believe God created the heavens and the earth?
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I'm gonny ask you that same question. How about it??

If so, please describe,

or if not, what is your explaination?
 
doniston said:
I'm gonny ask you that same question. How about it??

If so, please describe,

or if not, what is your explaination?
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Yes I believe it. Wasn't there to see it, though.

How about you?
 
Logicman said:
Yes I believe it. Wasn't there to see it, though.

How about you?
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I couldn't have been there neither because of age (HEH HEH) or simply because I don't believe there is a god,----- at least the type of god most of you believe in. I do believe GOD NATURE (the Force) did.
 
RAMOSS said:
No, actually, I don't. They are teaching stories. That is what you get wrong. You have always got wrong, and you will always get wrong. You don't understand Judaism. You never will, because you keep on trying to shove Christianity on it. It just doesn't fit.
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Logic man doesn't try and understand anything, he just copies and pastes from "the Righter Report" usually without actually Reading the arguments or scriptures.
 
RGacky3 said:
Logic man doesn't try and understand anything, he just copies and pastes from "the Righter Report" usually without actually Reading the arguments or scriptures.
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That's absolute nonsense.

The fact that you're still in the dark about who Jesus really is after all the arguments and scriptural examples that I and many others have shown you over the last year is astonishing.

We hope you would learn from us but evidently you're not interested in the truth.
 
Logicman said:
That's absolute nonsense.

The fact that you're still in the dark about who Jesus really is after all the arguments and scriptural examples that I and many others have shown you over the last year is astonishing.

We hope you would learn from us but evidently you're not interested in the truth.
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You want to have a "true debate"? Where all the scriptures are actually QUOTED?
 
RGacky3 said:
You want to have a "true debate"? Where all the scriptures are actually QUOTED?
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Particularly in context. One thing I noted is a lot of people weave together single lines to come up with their theology, without actually looking at what the individual lines are talking about in context, or how it fits in with the society of that time.
 
Logicman said:
You don't / won't learn.
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m That depends upon his feelings about religeon, If he is like me, the question comes, If you don't believer in them, how would you debate the scripturesd, (unless of course you are saying they are not accurate, THAT "I" CAN DO.
 
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