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Now here is a movement I can get behind

blarg said:
what's the leadership do that requires a believer and justifies discrimination in this case?
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Your question is absurd....so I'll just ignore you for now until you've got something substantial to say.
 
tosca1 said:
The more so if it's a private business!

Suppressing religious freedom is a form of persecution. What more when the continuous attempt to suppress goes against a supreme court ruling.

It is clearly persecution.
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A racist college not allowing blacks in isn't having its rights violated either. You religion does not tell you to exclude people who commit sin you don't like, everyone is a sinner. You have to obey public accommodation laws just like everyone else, you don't get special privileges.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
A racist college not allowing blacks in isn't having its rights violated either. You religion does not tell you to exclude people who commit sin you don't like, everyone is a sinner. You have to obey public accommodation laws just like everyone else, you don't get special privileges.
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A college not allowing blacks on campus isn't comparable to a religion that's upholding its religious belief.
Christian religion and blacks will be on the same fence on that parallel - both being discriminated (beliefs and race).

Furthermore, the issue isn't about participation of non-believers. It is about leadership.
How absurd it is to have a non-believer of a group's doctrine to lead that particular group! :lol:

Do you think Homosexuals would want a Supremacist to lead them?
Or feminists will go along without a fight being led by a man? :lamo
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
You have to obey public accommodation laws just like everyone else, you don't get special privileges.
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Religion is exempt from that!


Within US law, public accommodations are generally defined as entities, both public and private, that are used by the public. Examples include retail stores, rental establishments and service establishments, as well as educational institutions, recreation facilities and service centers.

Private clubs and religious institutions are exempt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_accommodations


Even if they're not exempt, participation is open to everyone in that Varsity....so that public accommodation law is irrelevant.
 
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Unrepresented said:
Pat Robertson's anti-ACLU. Quality source.
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It's not like Pat Robertson's opinion site. It's a Christian legal entity that fights and wins Legal cases. You know, the Law. The Law of the United States of America. It's a Judicial opinion that they seek, not Pat's.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Denying accreditation to a private business is not religious persecution. It falls under public accommodation laws which apply to everyone equally. This was also NOT the US and not the big bad atheists.

You're not persecuted.

LOL. Let's click on the link and take a look at the first few stories:

- "U.N. Security Council to Consider Resolution to Remove Jews from Key Parts of the Holy Land?" => A Palestinian resolution against Israeli Jews.
- "IRS Cover-Up: IG Report Exposes IRS Lying to American Public" => The IRS scandal? Really? That's not christian persecution.
- "Unity in Prayer: The Church Gathers to Pray for Saeed and the Persecuted Church" => An Iranian pastor is imprisoned by Iran, a theocracy.

So you haven't given any examples as to how American christians are persecuted, especially by the big bad atheists. You have however given an example as to why we shouldn't be a theocracy.
Ok buddy, sorry, the bible will not be replacing our constitution and Jesus will not be our president. Keep your religion to yourself.
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Hmmmm. I gave you too much credit sir. I expected a RabidAlpaca to tear into that site and wring out the Legal issues that show persecution of Christians. My mistake.
 
Religions that can't handle being countered, criticized and exposed, and consider that criticism persecution, must lack confidence in the strength of their ideas.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
A racist college not allowing blacks in isn't having its rights violated either. You religion does not tell you to exclude people who commit sin you don't like, everyone is a sinner. You have to obey public accommodation laws just like everyone else, you don't get special privileges.
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It amazes me that Christians still haven't figured that out yet. They have gotten used to these privileges as if they are written into laws. The only thing written is that the State may not be involved in any Religion and secular laws apply to all regardless of religious beliefs.
 
Hard Truth said:
Religions that can't handle being countered, criticized and exposed, and consider that criticism persecution, must lack confidence in the strength of their ideas.
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Isn't there a difference between criticizing and trying to infiltrate and undermine? Why is it that secularists can't see this attack?
 
Cable said:
Isn't there a difference between criticizing and trying to infiltrate and undermine? Why is it that secularists can't see this attack?
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What attack?

It is each religious group's task to enforce adherence to their doctrine. If a church think that some of their members are attempting to infiltrate and undermine their mission they have a legal right to revoke their membership.
 
tosca1 said:
Religion is exempt from that!


Within US law, public accommodations are generally defined as entities, both public and private, that are used by the public. Examples include retail stores, rental establishments and service establishments, as well as educational institutions, recreation facilities and service centers.

Private clubs and religious institutions are exempt.


Public accommodations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Even if they're not exempt, participation is open to everyone in that Varsity....so that public accommodation law is irrelevant.
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Private clubs and religious institutions are exempt unless they accept government funds or other forms of support.
 
Cable said:
Hmmmm. I gave you too much credit sir. I expected a RabidAlpaca to tear into that site and wring out the Legal issues that show persecution of Christians. My mistake.
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No, what you did is lazily post a link to a ****ty blog and you expect me to build your case for you. If you have a point, make it, and be explicit. I'm not going to waste my evening reading the entirety of your favorite website.

tosca1 said:
And even some colleges indulge in unabashed stupidity.....


A well-established international Christian student group is being denied recognition at almost two dozen California college campuses because it requires leaders to adhere to Christian beliefs, effectively closing its leadership ranks to non-Christians and gays.

InterVarsity, College Christian Group, 'De-Recognized' At California State University Campuses


Do you see an atheist being a leader of a Christian student group? :lol:
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You 100% have the right and ability to make a jesus club and hang a "No fags allowed" sign outside, and colleges have the right to want to have nothing to do with you. Stop trying to force them to support your bigotry.
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
No, what you did is lazily post a link to a ****ty blog and you expect me to build your case for you. If you have a point, make it, and be explicit. I'm not going to waste my evening reading the entirety of your favorite website.
You 100% have the right and ability to make a jesus club and hang a "No fags allowed" sign outside, and colleges have the right to want to have nothing to do with you. Stop trying to force them to support your bigotry.
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The information is there. If you choose to ignore it, you are the lazy one. But it doesn't help support your claims, so it makes sense that you would want such information undiscovered.
 
Hard Truth said:
Religions that can't handle being countered, criticized and exposed, and consider that criticism persecution, must lack confidence in the strength of their ideas.
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I've noticed that atheists aren't real good at taking criticism or even owning up to their own shortcomings, either. Since they live in glass houses maybe they should live and let live.
 
Hard Truth said:
Private clubs and religious institutions are exempt unless they accept government funds or other forms of support.
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Varsity is open to anyone. So, public accommodation law is moot.
 
Hard Truth said:
Religions that can't handle being countered, criticized and exposed, and consider that criticism persecution, must lack confidence in the strength of their ideas.
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What on earth are you talking about? Are you referring to the Varsity?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
No, what you did is lazily post a link to a ****ty blog and you expect me to build your case for you. If you have a point, make it, and be explicit. I'm not going to waste my evening reading the entirety of your favorite website.

You 100% have the right and ability to make a jesus club and hang a "No fags allowed" sign outside, and colleges have the right to want to have nothing to do with you. Stop trying to force them to support your bigotry.
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Can't you read? :doh

How many times do I have to repeat? Here,


"While InterVarsity invites and welcomes all students as participants, we believe a Christian group should have the right to expect and even require their leaders to be Christian

http://www.christianpost.com/news/i...-due-to-csu-non-discrimination-policy-126158/




The organization is open to everyone! Anyone can participate. No one is being excluded.
 
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tosca1 said:
What on earth are you talking about? Are you referring to the Varsity?
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I was responding to this post:
Originally Posted by Cable
Isn't there a difference between criticizing and trying to infiltrate and undermine? Why is it that secularists can't see this attack?
 
tosca1 said:
Varsity is open to anyone. So, public accommodation law is moot.
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If a college group wants to establish or maintain religious, racial, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic age or other such discriminatory rules for members or leaders, they are not entitled to use government funded resources unless every group, college-affiliated or not, is allowed to use the same resources. For example, if a conference room is available to any group that requests it, then the discriminatory group should be allowed to use it. But if there are facilities and support services provided exclusively to University-recognized groups of students or faculty, then anti-discrimination laws should be enforced because otherwise the University could be held legally responsible for the group's actions because they are officially sanctioned.
 
Hard Truth said:
If a college group wants to establish or maintain religious, racial, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic age or other such discriminatory rules for members or leaders, they are not entitled to use government funded resources unless every group, college-affiliated or not, is allowed to use the same resources.
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If participation is open to everyone....then, that is a non-issue. Of course, I'm referring to the Intervarsity issue.
 
it's just me said:
The Freedom From Atheism Foundation

"Militant atheism is a term applied to atheism which is hostile towards religion. Militant atheists have a desire to propagate the doctrine, and differ from moderate atheists because they hold religion to be harmful. Militant atheism was an integral part of the atheistic communist ideology of Marxism-Leninism, and was significant in the Reign of Terror in the French Revolution. Atheist states, both historically and currently, uphold the doctrine; these include the Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), People's Republic of China (PRC), Cuba, and North Korea. Today, militant atheism also manifests itself in the New Atheism movement, which stands by the ideological position that religion should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized and exposed. In the 20th Century alone, over 25 million believers of many faiths were martyred under the militant atheism espoused by atheist régimes around the world. However, the promotion of this atheistic ideology, along with its accompanying persecution of faith communities continues today."

After all, there is a "Freedom From Religion Foundation". Fair's fair.
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To the bolded - I actually support this. People who hold religious views sometimes are in excess with their fanatacism and would like nothing more than to convert non-believers at any chance. I find that this is a serious issue that should be addressed. No, religious is not something to be given special treatment to, protections for, or a blind eye to. Religious can be a heavily governing and thus very dangerous power to hold over people.

I think religious leaders need to be kept in check.

However . . . "martyred " - I certainly don't support checks-and-balances by becoming a tyrant and simply ending those you don't approve of.

I do believe in tolerance - but also open honesty. A balance without violating rights and civil liberties.
 
HonestJoe said:
I thought lying was a sin.

This has nothing to do with atheists being leaders of the Christian group. The Christian group exists and can remain to exist with whatever rules and restrictions they care to apply to its members and/or leadership.

They wish to have formal recognition from a group of colleges though. That group of colleges can also apply rules and restrictions to its members. One of those involves signing a non-discriminatory agreement. The leaders of the Christian group refuse to sign that agreement because it includes not discriminating on grounds of sexual orientation.

The Christian group (and this one alone) is demanding an exemption from the rules of the group of colleges on this basis.
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which is a violation of the 1st amendment. a public school cannot enforce any rule against someone religious views or practice which is exactly what the school is doing.
it is discriminating against religious groups that do not hold the schools preceived view.

Nope this group is resonding in kind to a violation of it's 1st amendment rights by a public college.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Denying accreditation to a private business is not religious persecution. It falls under public accommodation laws which apply to everyone equally. This was also NOT the US and not the big bad atheists.

You're not persecuted.



LOL. Let's click on the link and take a look at the first few stories:

- "U.N. Security Council to Consider Resolution to Remove Jews from Key Parts of the Holy Land?" => A Palestinian resolution against Israeli Jews.
- "IRS Cover-Up: IG Report Exposes IRS Lying to American Public" => The IRS scandal? Really? That's not christian persecution.
- "Unity in Prayer: The Church Gathers to Pray for Saeed and the Persecuted Church" => An Iranian pastor is imprisoned by Iran, a theocracy.

So you haven't given any examples as to how American christians are persecuted, especially by the big bad atheists. You have however given an example as to why we shouldn't be a theocracy.



Ok buddy, sorry, the bible will not be replacing our constitution and Jesus will not be our president. Keep your religion to yourself.
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same keep your athieism to yourself. ol yea you can't seem to do that can you.

you don't want people imposing their beliefs on you but have no problem doing it yourself.

the hypocrasy of today's athiests is to clear.

the fear of something you don't believe exists is what is even more funny. in fact it is down right hysterical.
 
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