Birth date of Christ[W:61]

laska · Sep 30, 2014

RAMOSS said:
No, that isn't what he said. let's quote exactly what he wrote in "The Jewish Wars"

Those are the exact words Jospehus wrote.

Now, let's look at the exact words in Antiquities.

So, your claim is inaccurate.

Couldn't help but read your post just now. No it is not inaccurate, you are twisting what I am saying. I stated Josephus reckoned the 37 year reign from 40 bc when he was appointed king by the Romans but that he should have taken that from 37 BC when he officially reigned as king. You are missing the entire point. The theory is Josephus was confused by the reign dates of Herod's sons and had not considered they antedated their reigns.

laska · Sep 30, 2014

Made a mistake in my post on the Enoch calendar that may confuse. In the first sentence it should be 3 Apr, 457 BC, and not 2 Apr.

It is quite amazing that the prophecy is fulfilled so dramatically to the very day on the Enoch calendar.

RAMOSS · Oct 1, 2014

laska said:
Made a mistake in my post on the Enoch calendar that may confuse. In the first sentence it should be 3 Apr, 457 BC, and not 2 Apr.

It is quite amazing that the prophecy is fulfilled so dramatically to the very day on the Enoch calendar.

Of course, it's not. It's a case of 'taking an end point, and working backwards to find the expected result. Except for thinking the begining poitn matches, and retrofitting things, there is no biblical inclination to the start of the calender .

It's things like this that make me strongly doubt what people claim about miracles.

laska · Oct 1, 2014

RAMOSS said:
Of course, it's not. It's a case of 'taking an end point, and working backwards to find the expected result. Except for thinking the begining poitn matches, and retrofitting things, there is no biblical inclination to the start of the calender .

It's things like this that make me strongly doubt what people claim about miracles.

You are wrong again. Working backwards to finding the result is exactly what didn't happen, just the opposite. For the LDS, Friday Apr 1, 33 AD has been the known date for the Crucifixion since 1830 when Joseph revealed that Christ had been born 1830 years earlier from April 6, 1830, when The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was officially organized. Several LDS prophets between then and now have confirmed that April 6, 1 BC is the birth date of Christ. Since the Bible implies He lived 33 yrs, and was crucified on Friday Nisan 14, it must have been on Fri Apr 1, 33 AD if you believe He was born on Passover, 1 BC. So that date has been long known by the LDS, and even many non LDS scholars have pinpointed that date as one of the most likely for the Crucifixion date as the day before the Passover feast falls on a Friday only three times in the decade of possibilities. The other beginning date for Daniel's prophecy, Apr 3, 458 BC comes from secular sources. John Pratt emphasized the following point, which seems, as usual, a crucial point that you have missed: "Ezra provides us with the exact date of when he left to begin to restore Jerusalem. He states that it was on the first day of the first month of the seventh year of Artaxerxes that he left Babylon to restore Jerusalem (Ezra 7:7-9). Sir Isaac Newton placed that event in the year 458 BC, but saw no need to refine that estimate further. What does modern scholarship say about that date?
The standard reference for dates of that period on the Babylonian calendar is a set of tables produced by Parker and Dubberstein, which give the exact day for the first day of every month. The day listed in their tables, which is guaranteed not to have been influenced by any desire to force the prophecy to come out neatly, is Sat 3 Apr 458 BC."

So the beginning 3 Apr 458 BC and end 1 Apr, 33 AD dates are independent of each other and not chosen to fit. Both dates are Passover and exactly 490 years to the day apart from each other on the Enoch Calendar. Which is an absolute bullseye for Daniel's prophecy. Given the prophecy is given in weeks of years, and the Enoch calendar is based on weeks (of days), it is a perfect fit.

RAMOSS · Oct 1, 2014

laska said:
You are wrong again. Working backwards to finding the result is exactly what didn't happen, just the opposite. For the LDS, Friday Apr 1, 33 AD has been the known date for the Crucifixion since 1830 when Joseph revealed that Christ had been born 1830 years earlier from April 6, 1830, when The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was officially organized. Several LDS prophets between then and now have confirmed that April 6, 1 BC is the birth date of Christ. Since the Bible implies He lived 33 yrs, and was crucified on Friday Nisan 14, it must have been on Fri Apr 1, 33 AD if you believe He was born on Passover, 1 BC. So that date has been long known by the LDS, and even many non LDS scholars have pinpointed that date as one of the most likely for the Crucifixion date as the day before the Passover feast falls on a Friday only three times in the decade of possibilities. The other beginning date for Daniel's prophecy, Apr 3, 458 BC comes from secular sources. John Pratt emphasized the following point, which seems, as usual, a crucial point that you have missed: "Ezra provides us with the exact date of when he left to begin to restore Jerusalem. He states that it was on the first day of the first month of the seventh year of Artaxerxes that he left Babylon to restore Jerusalem (Ezra 7:7-9). Sir Isaac Newton placed that event in the year 458 BC, but saw no need to refine that estimate further. What does modern scholarship say about that date?
The standard reference for dates of that period on the Babylonian calendar is a set of tables produced by Parker and Dubberstein, which give the exact day for the first day of every month. The day listed in their tables, which is guaranteed not to have been influenced by any desire to force the prophecy to come out neatly, is Sat 3 Apr 458 BC."

So the beginning 3 Apr 458 BC and end 1 Apr, 33 AD dates are independent of each other and not chosen to fit. Both dates are Passover and exactly 490 years to the day apart from each other on the Enoch Calendar. Which is an absolute bullseye for Daniel's prophecy. Given the prophecy is given in weeks of years, and the Enoch calendar is based on weeks (of days), it is a perfect fit.

Absolutely not, since, there is no reason to take 3 APR 458 bc from Daniel prophecy. That is retrofitted in .. and is total nonsense. That is one of about a half a dozen mutual exclusive interpretations of Daniel.

But, hey, why let facts get into the mixture of prophecy..

laska · Oct 1, 2014

RAMOSS said:
Absolutely not, since, there is no reason to take 3 APR 458 bc from Daniel prophecy. That is retrofitted in .. and is total nonsense. That is one of about a half a dozen mutual exclusive interpretations of Daniel.

But, hey, why let facts get into the mixture of prophecy..

There is every reason to take Apr 3, 458 BC for the Daniel prophecy as that is the date that Ezra left Babylon, under commandment of Artaxerxes king of Persia, to restore and build Jerusalem. The Bible states that Ezra left on the first day of the first month in the seventh year of Artaxerxes. From secular sources that date is Apr 3, 458 BC. The prophecy in Daniel gives "seventy weeks" to "make an end of sins, and to make a reconciliation for iniquity", which obviously is talking about the Atonement of Christ. The very next verse: "25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince...". So given the prophecy states "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem" and that Ezra fulfilled the command to go and restore and build Jerusalem on Apr 3, 458 BC, when he left Babylon with his party to do this, there is every reason to take that date in regards to the prophecy.

RAMOSS · Oct 1, 2014

laska said:
There is every reason to take Apr 3, 458 BC for the Daniel prophecy as that is the date that Ezra left Babylon, under commandment of Artaxerxes king of Persia, to restore and build Jerusalem. The Bible states that Ezra left on the first day of the first month in the seventh year of Artaxerxes. From secular sources that date is Apr 3, 458 BC. The prophecy in Daniel gives "seventy weeks" to "make an end of sins, and to make a reconciliation for iniquity", which obviously is talking about the Atonement of Christ. The very next verse: "25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince...". So given the prophecy states "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem" and that Ezra fulfilled the command to go and restore and build Jerusalem on Apr 3, 458 BC, when he left Babylon with his party to do this, there is every reason to take that date in regards to the prophecy.

Yet, the reason to choose that incident is because you worked backward, and then looked to see what happened. that is known as 'Shoe horning' a prophecy into place. No reason to assume that is a tick timer, except for the fact folks played with numbers, and could squish that into place.

Logicman · Oct 1, 2014

The Scarlet Cloth / Thread

Quoted from JCNT:84, re: Mt 27.51:

"The parokhet in the Temple. Exodus 26:31-35 describes this curtain as it existed in the desert Tabernacle. It separated the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies. Only the cohen hagadol was allowed to pass through it into the Holy of Holies; and that he could do only once a year, on Yom-Kippur, to make an atonement sacrifice for his sins and for the sins of the Jewish people. When it was ripped in two from top to bottom it symbolized the fact that God was giving everyone access to the most holy place of all in heaven, as taught explicitly at MJ 9:3-9, 10:19-22.

The Talmud bears an amazing witness to the work of Yeshua in altering the system of atonement. The background is that on Yom-Kippur, when the cohen hagadol sacrificed a bull (Leviticus 16), a piece of scarlet cloth was tied between its horns. If it later turned white, it meant that God had forgiven Israel's sin in accordance with Isaiah 1:18, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they will be white as snow."

"Our Rabbis taught that throughout the forty years that Shim'on the Tzaddik served,... the scarlet cloth would become white. From then on it would sometimes become white and sometimes not.... Throughout the last forty years before the Temple was destroyed... the scarlet cloth never turned white." (Yoma 39a-39b)

Thus in the days of Shim'on Tzaddik the sacrificial system established by God in the Tanakh was observed, and it was effective. But afterwards Israel's spirituality declined, so that the sacrificial system was effective only sometimes. Finally, after Yeshua's death, forty years before the destruction of the Temple, it was never effective. The Talmud does not say it, but what had become effective for forgiving Israel's sin was the sacrificial death of Yeshua the Messiah."

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/dveil.html

laska · Oct 1, 2014

RAMOSS said:
Yet, the reason to choose that incident is because you worked backward, and then looked to see what happened. that is known as 'Shoe horning' a prophecy into place. No reason to assume that is a tick timer, except for the fact folks played with numbers, and could squish that into place.

Wrong. You constantly miss things. What is wrong with your reading comprehension? It is like I am explaining something to a brick wall.

laska · Oct 1, 2014

The more credible the evidence, the more biased, dishonest spin from the likes of Ramoss and Marc Skipper. Likely because they are threatened. Both have been fully discredited in this thread, whether they are smart enough to see it or not. Both should be embarrassed.

Logicman · Oct 1, 2014

laska said:
You are wrong again. Working backwards to finding the result is exactly what didn't happen, just the opposite. For the LDS, Friday Apr 1, 33 AD has been the known date for the Crucifixion since 1830 when Joseph revealed that Christ had been born 1830 years earlier from April 6, 1830, when The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was officially organized. Several LDS prophets between then and now have confirmed that April 6, 1 BC is the birth date of Christ. Since the Bible implies He lived 33 yrs, and was crucified on Friday Nisan 14, it must have been on Fri Apr 1, 33 AD if you believe He was born on Passover, 1 BC. So that date has been long known by the LDS, and even many non LDS scholars have pinpointed that date as one of the most likely for the Crucifixion date as the day before the Passover feast falls on a Friday only three times in the decade of possibilities. The other beginning date for Daniel's prophecy, Apr 3, 458 BC comes from secular sources. John Pratt emphasized the following point, which seems, as usual, a crucial point that you have missed: "Ezra provides us with the exact date of when he left to begin to restore Jerusalem. He states that it was on the first day of the first month of the seventh year of Artaxerxes that he left Babylon to restore Jerusalem (Ezra 7:7-9). Sir Isaac Newton placed that event in the year 458 BC, but saw no need to refine that estimate further. What does modern scholarship say about that date?
The standard reference for dates of that period on the Babylonian calendar is a set of tables produced by Parker and Dubberstein, which give the exact day for the first day of every month. The day listed in their tables, which is guaranteed not to have been influenced by any desire to force the prophecy to come out neatly, is Sat 3 Apr 458 BC."

So the beginning 3 Apr 458 BC and end 1 Apr, 33 AD dates are independent of each other and not chosen to fit. Both dates are Passover and exactly 490 years to the day apart from each other on the Enoch Calendar. Which is an absolute bullseye for Daniel's prophecy. Given the prophecy is given in weeks of years, and the Enoch calendar is based on weeks (of days), it is a perfect fit.

Even various Jewish rabbis recognized the veracity of Daniel's prophecy, to wit:

Rabbi Judah, the main compiler of the Talmud said regarding the times referred to in Daniel’s (Messianic) prophecy, "These times were over long ago." (Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin.)

In the 12th Century AD, Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon (Maimonides), one of the most respected rabbis in history, and a man who rejected the messianic claim of Yeshua, stated:

"Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise [rabbis] have barred the calculation of the days of Messiah’s coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the End Times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah."

Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi said, "I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of Messiah clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel."

Of course the skeptics even try to deny that Daniel was a prophet, or that the Book of Daniel was not recognized as being prophetic. Both of these denials have been shown to be false.

RAMOSS · Oct 1, 2014

Logicman said:
Even various Jewish rabbis recognized the veracity of Daniel's prophecy, to wit:

Rabbi Judah, the main compiler of the Talmud said regarding the times referred to in Daniel’s (Messianic) prophecy, "These times were over long ago." (Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin.)

In the 12th Century AD, Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon (Maimonides), one of the most respected rabbis in history, and a man who rejected the messianic claim of Yeshua, stated:

"Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise [rabbis] have barred the calculation of the days of Messiah’s coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the End Times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah."

Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi said, "I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of Messiah clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel."

Of course the skeptics even try to deny that Daniel was a prophet, or that the Book of Daniel was not recognized as being prophetic. Both of these denials have been shown to be false.

Ah yes.. the fake quote from the Rabbi that doesn't exist. Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi did not exist. You will only find his quotes from Christian sites, and no primary sources., nor is the quote from the Sanhredrin in existence. And, of course, the out of context quote from Rambam..

I wonder why Christians have to be so dishonest about the Jewish sources, to the point of making them up.

Logicman · Oct 1, 2014

RAMOSS said:
Ah yes.. the fake quote from the Rabbi that doesn't exist. Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi did not exist. You will only find his quotes from Christian sites, and no primary sources., nor is the quote from the Sanhredrin in existence. And, of course, the out of context quote from Rambam..

I wonder why Christians have to be so dishonest about the Jewish sources, to the point of making them up.

Yawn...

Is this our Abraham Levi (from a Jewish website)?

"In addition to these, isolated families in many smaller centres were attached to the Great Synagogue. Thus at Poole in Dorset, we find (c. 1760) Moses ben Abraham Levi, known as Moses Abraham (an ancestor of Lord Samuel: his tomb in the Alderney Road burial-ground in London is still legible), whose son, Abraham Abraham, was admitted to membership in 1784/5 - Jewish Community and Records

JCR-UK: The Rise of Provincial Jewry by Cecil Roth - Introduction

Could very well be!

But the fact is, your Messiah has come, and you haven't the foggiest clue about it.

I recommend another lap around Mt. Sinai to think about it.

RAMOSS · Oct 1, 2014

Logicman said:
Yawn...

Is this our Abraham Levi (from a Jewish website)?

"In addition to these, isolated families in many smaller centres were attached to the Great Synagogue. Thus at Poole in Dorset, we find (c. 1760) Moses ben Abraham Levi, known as Moses Abraham (an ancestor of Lord Samuel: his tomb in the Alderney Road burial-ground in London is still legible), whose son, Abraham Abraham, was admitted to membership in 1784/5 - Jewish Community and Records

JCR-UK: The Rise of Provincial Jewry by Cecil Roth - Introduction

Could very well be!

But the fact is, your Messiah has come, and you haven't the foggiest clue about it.

I recommend another lap around Mt. Sinai to think about it.

Maybe.. So you found someone by that name.. not a very well noted one, but at least someone by that name.

Can you reference the actual work in which he allegedly said that, so the quote can be looked at in context?

Let's see it. come on.

I have to say there are some things you are totally obsessed about. Trying to prove Judaism wrong, and homosexuality.

Logicman · Oct 1, 2014

RAMOSS said:
Maybe.. So you found someone by that name.. not a very well noted one, but at least someone by that name.

Can you reference the actual work in which he allegedly said that, so the quote can be looked at in context?

Let's see it. come on.

You just saw it. And right under your rug it went.

RAMOSS said:
I have to say there are some things you are totally obsessed about. Trying to prove Judaism wrong, and homosexuality.

Hey, I don't have a problem with OT Judaism. It even foretold the NEW COVENANT, and the coming of the Messiah. And I love it that Christianity was started by Jews and preached by Jews, and that it's celebrated today in Messianic Jewish Synagogues from East to West. Sorry you missed it.

As for gay sex sin, you brought it up, not me. And it's documented in the scriptures that it's a sin, whether you want to admit it or not.

RAMOSS · Oct 1, 2014

Logicman said:
You just saw it. And right under your rug it went.

Hey, I don't have a problem with OT Judaism. It even foretold the NEW COVENANT, and the coming of the Messiah. And I love it that Christianity was started by Jews and preached by Jews, and that it's celebrated today in Messianic Jewish Synagogues from East to West. Sorry you missed it.

As for gay sex sin, you brought it up, not me. And it's documented in the scriptures that it's a sin, whether you want to admit it or not.

Funny how the so called 'Messianic Jewish synagogues' are financed by the Evangelistic Christians. That is because, well, they are really Evangelistic Christians playing at being Jewish. It's sort of cute, but you know, sometime, people really should grow up.

Logicman · Oct 1, 2014

RAMOSS said:
Funny how the so called 'Messianic Jewish synagogues' are financed by the Evangelistic Christians.

Some are, some aren't. But the fact is Jews started Christianity, and don't believe them either.

RAMOSS said:
It's sort of cute, but you know, sometime, people really should grow up.

What did Stephen say about that to the stiff-necked crowd in Acts chapter 7?

“You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”

RAMOSS · Oct 1, 2014

Logicman said:
Some are, some aren't. But the fact is Jews started Christianity, and don't believe them either.

What did Stephen say about that to the stiff-necked crowd in Acts chapter 7?

“You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”

The book of acts doesn't mean anything to me. It's a story, not scripture. Of course, this enforces the concept you are obsessed with Judaism, you seem to feel the need to attack the Jewish faith, and people of the Jewish faith. Well, insecurities do make for the most violent attacks. .

Logicman · Oct 1, 2014

RAMOSS said:
The book of acts doesn't mean anything to me. It's a story, not scripture. Of course, this enforces the concept you are obsessed with Judaism, you seem to feel the need to attack the Jewish faith, and people of the Jewish faith. Well, insecurities do make for the most violent attacks. .

Nuts. Act and the Gospels depict the fulfillment of OT Judaism. It's you who is denigrating what God has wrought.

RAMOSS · Oct 1, 2014

Logicman said:
Nuts. Act and the Gospels depict the fulfillment of OT Judaism. It's you who is denigrating what God has wrought.

Except, of course, it didn't. That is what you fail to understand about Judaism.

Logicman · Oct 2, 2014

RAMOSS said:
Except, of course, it didn't. That is what you fail to understand about Judaism.

Well, when you can bust the resurrection then you'll begin to have some credibility for your denials.

Manc Skipper · Oct 2, 2014

Logicman said:
Well, when you can bust the resurrection then you'll begin to have some credibility for your denials.

Prove it happened. Busted. next?

RAMOSS · Oct 2, 2014

Logicman said:
Well, when you can bust the resurrection then you'll begin to have some credibility for your denials.

I don't have to. That which is claimed with out evidence can be dismissed without evidence. The stories in the bible are the claims.. without evidence.

Logicman · Oct 2, 2014

Yeah, you have to bust the resurrection if you want any credibility around here. Because otherwise you and Manc are just blowing hot air around the forum.

RAMOSS · Oct 2, 2014

Logicman said:
Yeah, you have to bust the resurrection if you want any credibility around here. Because otherwise you and Manc are just blowing hot air around the forum.

Shrug. That which can not have been show to actually happen doesn't need to be busted.

For the resurrection , you need something more than 'It's in the bible'

In the mean time, I can watch all you folks argue about which mutually exclusive scenerio fits Jesus' birth.. and watch you condemn each other to hell for not following each other sect.

Birth date of Christ[W:61]

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