"144,000 will go to heaven", according to JW.

laska · Sep 30, 2014

tosca1 said:
John saw an angel with an everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

That's quite a loose vision which anyone can try to exploit. Furthermore, we would know a true prophet...

Deut 18
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?”
22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

Smith had made some prophecies which didn't come true.

Joseph Smith's False Prophecies | Founder of Mormonism a False Prophet | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

We've already had a long discussion about this:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/199696-spotlight-mormon-beliefs-lds.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/189655-exodus-motif-and-name-brigham-young.html

Yes we have and I have showed you, ludin and phattonez that CARM is an anti-Mormon site that publishes dishonest attacks on the LDS faith. You are dishonest to keep using them, which shows the fruits of your side. Christ warned that MANY would call themselves after His name, and that by their fruits you will know them. That you have to dishonestly attack The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which I have showed over and over in past discussions the errors in your copy and paste attacks, which you cannot even acknowledge on any small point, shows your bad fruits. You cannot find where I am dishonest. You may not agree with me but what I post is not full of error. And if by chance I do post something with error in it, I would quickly admit to it once shown and apologize. I have showed several times that there are no "canonical" prophecies that have proven false. Canonized prophecies are found in the Doctrine and Covenants, Book of Mormon, and Pearl of Great Price. Period. Any new prophecy by a LDS prophet is legitimized by that prophet as coming from the Lord by being canonized in the Doctrine of Covenants. Several have amazingly come true, which you ignore, and a few are still in the future. I hope one day you can see I have been trying to share the truth with you and want the best for you and anyone, because it is going to suck for you to know in the next life that it wasn't the LDS who were deceived, and that you were attacking the Lord's true church. PS, if you continue to post anti-Mormon material I will ignore you.

laska · Sep 30, 2014

Here is the founder and owner of CARM, Matt Slick, that tosca1 likes to quote on what she thinks are problems with the LDS faith. Slick's adult daughter stated in an interview it was a game for her growing up to watch him jump out of the car whenever seeing a Mormon walking down the street(I assume missionaries) and start arguing with them. Slick is one of the biggest anti-Mormons out there. Watch his video below. Once you get to know him, his arrogance, his ugly form of Christianity, that he HATES the LDS is in of itself supporting evidence for the LDS. The christian sects are full of hacks like this, and are exactly who Christ warned about of "wolves in sheep's clothing" and the MANY who will call themselves after His name and deceive many. It is these types of ministers who riled up a mob of "Christians" to painting their faces black and kill Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum. (By the way the name Hyrum means "My Brother is exalted". What does Slick mean?)

laska · Sep 30, 2014

Matt Slick thinks he's the elect and going to Heaven and this LDS girl is going to Hell:

laska · Sep 30, 2014

That's quite a loose vision which anyone can try to exploit.-tosca1

Here is how Isaac Newton interpreted it in the book Prophecies (Taken from a John Pratt article Newton on Daniel)

"For the prophets and apostles have foretold that as Israel often revolted and brake the covenant, and upon repentance renewed it, so there should be a falling away among the Christians, soon after the days of the Apostles, and that in the latter days God would destroy the impenitent revolters, and make a new covenant with his people. And the giving ear to the prophets is a fundamental character of the true church." pg 13 Prophecies

This restoration of lost gospel truths he expected to be accomplished by the appearance of an angel, which shows how literally he believed the scriptures to be interpreted:

"An angel must fly through the midst of heaven with the everlasting Gospel to preach to all nations, before Babylon falls, and the Son of man reaps his harvest." (quoting Rev. 14:6). pg 243-244 Prophecies

Moreover, in addition to expecting long-lost truths of the gospel to be restored, he awaited the day, described in Daniel and Revelation, that the political Kingdom of God would be established:

"For as the few and obscure Prophecies concerning Christ's first coming were for setting up the Christian religion, which all nations have since corrupted, so the many and clear Prophecies, concerning the things to be done at Christ's second coming, are not only for predicting but also for effecting a recovery and re-establishment of the long-lost truth, and setting up a kingdom wherein dwells righteousness. The event will prove the Apocalypse, and this Prophecy, thus proved and understood, will open the old Prophets and all together will make known the true religion, and establish it." pg 245 Prophecies

Newton on Daniel

tosca1 · Sep 30, 2014

laska said:
Here is the founder and owner of CARM, Matt Slick, that tosca1 likes to quote on what she thinks are problems with the LDS faith. Slick's adult daughter stated in an interview it was a game for her growing up to watch him jump out of the car whenever seeing a Mormon walking down the street(I assume missionaries) and start arguing with them. Slick is one of the biggest anti-Mormons out there. Watch his video below. Once you get to know him, his arrogance, his ugly form of Christianity, that he HATES the LDS is in of itself supporting evidence for the LDS. The christian sects are full of hacks like this, and are exactly who Christ warned about of "wolves in sheep's clothing" and the MANY who will call themselves after His name and deceive many. It is these types of ministers who riled up a mob of "Christians" to painting their faces black and kill Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum. (By the way the name Hyrum means "My Brother is exalted". What does Slick mean?)

It's not about CARM, or the owner of CARM, Laska. It's about the message.

Joseph Smith did indeed make some prophecies that did not come true.

tosca1 · Sep 30, 2014

laska said:
Yes we have and I have showed you, ludin and phattonez that CARM is an anti-Mormon site that publishes dishonest attacks on the LDS faith. You are dishonest to keep using them, which shows the fruits of your side. Christ warned that MANY would call themselves after His name, and that by their fruits you will know them. That you have to dishonestly attack The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which I have showed over and over in past discussions the errors in your copy and paste attacks, which you cannot even acknowledge on any small point, shows your bad fruits. You cannot find where I am dishonest. You may not agree with me but what I post is not full of error. And if by chance I do post something with error in it, I would quickly admit to it once shown and apologize. I have showed several times that there are no "canonical" prophecies that have proven false. Canonized prophecies are found in the Doctrine and Covenants, Book of Mormon, and Pearl of Great Price. Period. Any new prophecy by a LDS prophet is legitimized by that prophet as coming from the Lord by being canonized in the Doctrine of Covenants. Several have amazingly come true, which you ignore, and a few are still in the future. I hope one day you can see I have been trying to share the truth with you and want the best for you and anyone, because it is going to suck for you to know in the next life that it wasn't the LDS who were deceived, and that you were attacking the Lord's true church. PS, if you continue to post anti-Mormon material I will ignore you.

You should review our exchanges on these two threads.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/199696-spotlight-mormon-beliefs-lds.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/189655-exodus-motif-and-name-brigham-young.html

I don't think you are being dishonest. And I admire your sincere faith. I believe that you sincerely want to foster a strong faith in our Lord, and like many LDS, are willing to serve Him.

I only hope to make you see the Truth.

laska · Oct 1, 2014

tosca1 said:
You should review our exchanges on these two threads.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/199696-spotlight-mormon-beliefs-lds.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/189655-exodus-motif-and-name-brigham-young.html

I don't think you are being dishonest. And I admire your sincere faith. I believe that you sincerely want to foster a strong faith in our Lord, and like many LDS, are willing to serve Him.

I only hope to make you see the Truth.

We are going to review those exchanges very differently. But I appreciate your tone and the fact that you didn't try and restart those debates.

German guy · Oct 7, 2014

tosca1 said:
How did they come up with this number?

It's symbolic, as 12 is a special number, as you know.

12 tribes x 12 x 1000 people.

I disagree with JWs that this is supposed to be taken literally. IMO, 1000 meaning "much, but not very much".