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The Tribulation

Logicman said:
Ha ha! No, I have a friend who dated a devout Mormon and that's the spiel he was giving her. So I wasn't trying to be hateful but was just being curious if that's what kwj47 believed.
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kwj is a JW which is a whole other ball game.
 
Paschendale said:
So then people have no choice. What about this free will thing?
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What about it? The choice is there: choose life .... or death.

Just because the end result is not to your favor doesn't mean you didn't have your free will.



But the bad guys who are intentionally opposing a god that they believe in DO believe. And can read.
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Then they know the outcome. They know who's Almighty. They know who will win and who will lose.



And so either god is forcing them to play a role they don't want to play, or they'd have to be monumentally stupid not to try something other than what's written in Revelations.
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They have a choice to make.



It is self-defeating. And it violates a lot of your existing principles. Most notably the aforementioned free will.
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It is not.

God already knows the outcome because He is all-knowing. He already knows who'll be up in heaven and who'll end up lost forever.
 
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Paschendale said:
So then people have no choice. What about this free will thing?

But the bad guys who are intentionally opposing a god that they believe in DO believe. And can read. And so either god is forcing them to play a role they don't want to play, or they'd have to be monumentally stupid not to try something other than what's written in Revelations. It is self-defeating. And it violates a lot of your existing principles. Most notably the aforementioned free will.
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Btw, Satan is already defeated, and he knows that he's already defeated.

All he's doing now is similar to what murder(s)-suicides are doing these days - taking as many with him as he can.
 
Paschendale said:
Actually, no. It doesn't make any sense. Since it's an exact description of how events will play out,
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I just finished reading Chronicles (OT) this morning and thought how it illustrates an example of events playing out.
It was God's present time punishment for Israel and Judah running its course..... and in accordance with the prophetic promise.


2 Chronicles 36

The Proclamation of Cyrus

22 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,


23 Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:

All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah. Who is among you of all His people? May the Lord his God be with him, and let him go up!


The Persian king had issued a proclamation for Israel's return from its exile.

That reminds us that God superintends the events of earth's history for His glory, and mankind's good.
 
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ash4kh said:
I heard this quote recently "Satan is doing God's work without even realizing it."

Satan knows what Revelations says. So why would he continue down that route if he is going to be the loser in the end? God created Satan, Lucifer originally. And God knows exactly what Lucifer will do. And I like to think of Lucifer as a smart and cunning being but also power hungry, stubborn and selfish (obviously, that's why he's not in Heaven anymore) And since Lucifer is like this, I think he wants to prove God wrong. I think Lucifer continues down the same path that will lead to Revelations revelation because he thinks, or even KNOWS, in his mind that the outcome will be different. And if he can succeed in changing the outcome then he will basically be God at that point. It a second chance on top of revenge. Thoughts?
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We don't know much details about Lucifer. Surely he didn't just suddenly decide to rebel and have minions with him overnight. The Bible indicate though that he communicated and met with God (re:Job 1).

Satan surely tried to undermine God's plan with Jesus, but failed. We know that he is vain....so perhaps, inspite of it all, he still harbors some visions of grandeur. Of course this is pure speculation on my part.

Perhaps his only option at defiance and revenge would be to lure and take away as many people as he can with him away from God. Satan knows how it'll end for him at the Second Coming.

I can't help but compare that with the mind frame of those who want to kill as many people as they can before committing suicide. That is pure evil.
 
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tosca1 said:
Perhaps his only option at defiance and revenge would be to lure and take away as many people as he can with him away from God. Satan knows how it'll end for him at the Second Coming.

I can't help but compare that with the mind frame of those who want to kill as many people as they can before committing suicide. That is pure evil.
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Furthermore....it begs the question as to who would inspire such an atrocious desire in people today? (The latest in the news, a grandfather killing six grandchildren and his daughter before killing himself.)

And why? Why are there so many willing to do it?
 
RGacky3 said:
A selective literal Reading of revelation is very very Dangerous, and when I say selective, I don't mean selecting based on literary analysis, I mean selecting based on a theological point you want to make.

We know that Revelation is a symbolic allegorical text, and we should be very careful trying to read literal hints in the text and rather try and find out the overall theological concept John of Patmos is making.
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I'm simply asking and speculating. Could it be that during the Tribulation, the world will be under Islamists? Yes, "beheading" is an ancient practice along with crucifixion.....I wonder why the term "beheading" would be used?
Why not say, "crucifixion?" Perhaps it doesn't mean anything specific....

I guess I'm being influenced by the unfolding events currently in the news right now. The latest foiled random beheading terrorist plot in Australia (which doesn't have to happen in Australia alone), also comes to mind.
 
tosca1 said:
We don't know much details about Lucifer. Surely he didn't just suddenly decide to rebel and have minions with him overnight. The Bible indicate though that he communicated and met with God (re:Job 1).
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I agree. i don't think it was something that happened immediately. If you understand the relationship of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit they are constantly edifying and glorifying each other. The father glorifies the Son and the Son glorifies the Spirit and the Spirit glorifies the Father. and it is just this circle of edification and glorification.

My theory is that Lucifer became vain and proud and more than likely got tired of the glory sharing. He seeked to take what was not his as his and incured God's wrath as Glory is God's and He shares it with no one else.

Satan surely tried to undermine God's plan with Jesus, but failed. We know that he is vain....so perhaps, inspite of it all, he still harbors some visions of grandeur. Of course this is pure speculation on my part.
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yep he did he tried tempting Christ to shed his role as the Son of Man and become the Son of God. Christ resisted.

Perhaps his only option at defiance and revenge would be to lure and take away as many people as he can with him away from God. Satan knows how it'll end for him at the Second Coming.
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This is it right here. he knows he is doom so he is going to take as many people as he can with him.

I can't help but compare that with the mind frame of those who want to kill as many people as they can before committing suicide. That is pure evil.
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yep it is but what do you expect from the prince of darkness.
 
tosca1 said:
Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God,

and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


Could it be that we'll be under the power of the Islamists during the Tribulation?
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Believe it or not, you would not be the first to make this connection.

See here.
 
tosca1 said:
We don't know much details about Lucifer. Surely he didn't just suddenly decide to rebel and have minions with him overnight. The Bible indicate though that he communicated and met with God (re:Job 1).

Satan surely tried to undermine God's plan with Jesus, but failed. We know that he is vain....so perhaps, inspite of it all, he still harbors some visions of grandeur. Of course this is pure speculation on my part.

Perhaps his only option at defiance and revenge would be to lure and take away as many people as he can with him away from God. Satan knows how it'll end for him at the Second Coming.

I can't help but compare that with the mind frame of those who want to kill as many people as they can before committing suicide. That is pure evil.
Click to expand...



Overnight? Of course not. I think he spent time rallying other angels and planning, and that's the reason why he and other angels (now his minions) were cast out of heaven. What I don't understand, God knows everything and yet He created angels He knew would turn against Him. Makes my head hurt to even try and think of a reason why He is having things play out the way they are.

I think God should have just created dogs. Closest things to perfect beings there are.


But you know Satan's agenda is still to take God's place. He tried it by going to God directly. Then tried it on Jesus (which in turn is God). And I agree with you about taking as many as he can with him. He failed taking over God Himself. He failed tempting Jesus to give up. Now he is at war with the Holy Spirit. Whether it be through possession or negative instigation through demons.
 
ash4kh said:
Overnight? Of course not. I think he spent time rallying other angels and planning, and that's the reason why he and other angels (now his minions) were cast out of heaven. What I don't understand, God knows everything and yet He created angels He knew would turn against Him. Makes my head hurt to even try and think of a reason why He is having things play out the way they are.

I think God should have just created dogs. Closest things to perfect beings there are.


But you know Satan's agenda is still to take God's place. He tried it by going to God directly. Then tried it on Jesus (which in turn is God). And I agree with you about taking as many as he can with him. He failed taking over God Himself. He failed tempting Jesus to give up. Now he is at war with the Holy Spirit. Whether it be through possession or negative instigation through demons.
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Yet God created humans knowing how things will be with them. We can't fathom how God thinks....we don't have that capacity.




Isaiah 55

6
Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.

7
Let the wicked forsake their ways
and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

8
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.

9
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10
As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

11
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
 
ash4kh said:
Overnight? Of course not. I think he spent time rallying other angels and planning, and that's the reason why he and other angels (now his minions) were cast out of heaven. What I don't understand, God knows everything and yet He created angels He knew would turn against Him. Makes my head hurt to even try and think of a reason why He is having things play out the way they are.

I think God should have just created dogs. Closest things to perfect beings there are.


But you know Satan's agenda is still to take God's place. He tried it by going to God directly. Then tried it on Jesus (which in turn is God). And I agree with you about taking as many as he can with him. He failed taking over God Himself. He failed tempting Jesus to give up. Now he is at war with the Holy Spirit. Whether it be through possession or negative instigation through demons.
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As depicted in Job 1, the permission of God is needed by Satan before he can inflict anything directly on God's people.

Job 1

Satan Attacks Job’s Character

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”

So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”


That was before Jesus Christ. What more now when Jesus had given us the Holy Spirit.
Rest assured, believers will never be possessed by the devil (satanic possession like in the movie Exorcist), because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (which is actually Jesus/God) in us.
 
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tosca1 said:
That was before Jesus Christ. What more now when Jesus had given us the Holy Spirit.
Rest assured, believers will never be possessed by the devil (satanic possession like in the movie Exorcist), because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (which is actually Jesus/God) in us.
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Oh I have been rest assured as I have had that knowledge since I was little. :)
 
I have also wondered after the rapture if those who are in heaven will be able to see what's going on. I know we will be there to worship God, but I wonder if that would be a full time thing.

And yes, wondering about things we mere humans don't understand is overwhelming. I've done it many times. I used to imagine Heaven as a round running track. Just going in circles for eternity. It used to depress me.
 
The christian antichrist of the end of days is the muslims messiah (Mahdi). From a christian perspective muslims are waiting for the antichrist to come so they can worship him. If you take revelations and filp it upside down you have islams end of times scenario. In essence they worship who christians consider satan. This is why they call allah the great deceiver.
 
ash4kh said:
I have also wondered after the rapture if those who are in heaven will be able to see what's going on. I know we will be there to worship God, but I wonder if that would be a full time thing.

And yes, wondering about things we mere humans don't understand is overwhelming. I've done it many times. I used to imagine Heaven as a round running track. Just going in circles for eternity. It used to depress me.
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Gods word teaches-- rev 14:3--144,000 are bought from the earth--no more--no less
Jesus gave this promise to the great crowd of other sheep which no man can number----Happy are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
 
kjw47 said:
Gods word teaches-- rev 14:3--144,000 are bought from the earth--no more--no less
Jesus gave this promise to the great crowd of other sheep which no man can number----Happy are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
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So only that amount are going to Heaven? Predetermined salvation. An acquaintance of mine believes that way.
 
ash4kh said:
So only that amount are going to Heaven? Predetermined salvation. An acquaintance of mine believes that way.
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The 144,000 = the little flock= the bride of Christ--these will sit on thrones beside Jesus during his millennial reign as Gods appointed king. Helping do the judging of those on earth during the tribulation and after the resurrection.-Rev 1:5,6--Rev 20:6
 
kjw47 said:
The 144,000 = the little flock= the bride of Christ--these will sit on thrones beside Jesus during his millennial reign as Gods appointed king. Helping do the judging of those on earth during the tribulation and after the resurrection.-Rev 1:5,6--Rev 20:6
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You spoke of symbolism a while back.....how do you know that isn't just a symbolism?


There are some minor differences of opinion among reputable Bible scholars as to the identity of the 144,000 in Revelation 7.

that as it may, it is generally acknowledged that:

“The number is obviously symbolic. 12 (the number of the tribes) is both squared and multiplied by 1,000 — a twofold way of emphasizing completeness” (Mounce, 168).


We must emphasize the following two points:

First, one simply cannot take a symbolic section of scripture and interpret it in such a fashion as to make it contradict other clear, literal portions of the Bible.

Second, any doctrine which logically implies an absurdity is false and must be rejected. The Watchtower theory regarding the 144,000 violates both of these principles.


Consider the following points.

If 144,000 is literal, what about other descriptive terms?

If one argues that the 144,000 represents a literal number, he should similarly contend that the group of which that number consists is also literal, i.e., literal Israelites.

That would mean, according to the Watchtower scheme of interpretation, that no one would be in heaven who was not of the actual tribes listed.

This would also exclude Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob — who were never of the tribes of Israel. And yet, that conflicts with Jesus’ affirmation that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be in the kingdom of heaven (Mt. 8:11).

Are there any Gentiles in the 144,000?

If only a literal 144,000 Israelites will enter heaven, then not one Gentile has the hope of the kingdom of heaven. However, the Lord was plainly alluding to Gentiles when he stated that:


“many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven” (Mt. 8:11).

Are the tribes of Ephraim or Dan included in the 144,000?

If the tribes of Revelation 7 are to be literally pressed, not a person from either Ephraim or Dan will enter heaven, for they are excluded from the list.

This would mean that Old Testament heroes like Joshua (from Ephraim) and Samson (from Dan) will not be in heaven.

The fact is, mention of the “tribe of Joseph” (7:8), which was not a tribe at all in a literal sense, is evidence of the symbolism of this context.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/604-who-are-the-144-000-of-revelation-7-and-14




All you have to do is read Revelations 7 and you'll see the ridiculous interpretation by the JWs. To believe what they say is not only senseless, but unbiblical.

As Rev 7 states, there are surely MORE THAN 144,000 who'll be in heaven!


Revelation 7

144,000 Sealed

7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

The Great Multitude in White Robes

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:


“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:


“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,


“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.

16
‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
nor any scorching heat.

17
For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[c]”


It can't be any clearer than that!
 
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tosca1 said:
You spoke of symbolism a while back.....how do you know that isn't just a symbolism?


There are some minor differences of opinion among reputable Bible scholars as to the identity of the 144,000 in Revelation 7.

that as it may, it is generally acknowledged that:

“The number is obviously symbolic. 12 (the number of the tribes) is both squared and multiplied by 1,000 — a twofold way of emphasizing completeness” (Mounce, 168).


We must emphasize the following two points:

First, one simply cannot take a symbolic section of scripture and interpret it in such a fashion as to make it contradict other clear, literal portions of the Bible.

Second, any doctrine which logically implies an absurdity is false and must be rejected. The Watchtower theory regarding the 144,000 violates both of these principles.


Consider the following points.

If 144,000 is literal, what about other descriptive terms?

If one argues that the 144,000 represents a literal number, he should similarly contend that the group of which that number consists is also literal, i.e., literal Israelites.

That would mean, according to the Watchtower scheme of interpretation, that no one would be in heaven who was not of the actual tribes listed.

This would also exclude Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob — who were never of the tribes of Israel. And yet, that conflicts with Jesus’ affirmation that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be in the kingdom of heaven (Mt. 8:11).

Are there any Gentiles in the 144,000?

If only a literal 144,000 Israelites will enter heaven, then not one Gentile has the hope of the kingdom of heaven. However, the Lord was plainly alluding to Gentiles when he stated that:


“many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven” (Mt. 8:11).

Are the tribes of Ephraim or Dan included in the 144,000?

If the tribes of Revelation 7 are to be literally pressed, not a person from either Ephraim or Dan will enter heaven, for they are excluded from the list.

This would mean that Old Testament heroes like Joshua (from Ephraim) and Samson (from Dan) will not be in heaven.

The fact is, mention of the “tribe of Joseph” (7:8), which was not a tribe at all in a literal sense, is evidence of the symbolism of this context.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/604-who-are-the-144-000-of-revelation-7-and-14




All you have to do is read Revelations 7 and you'll see the ridiculous interpretation by the JWs. To believe what they say is not only senseless, but unbiblical.

As Rev 7 states, there are surely MORE THAN 144,000 who'll be in heaven!


Revelation 7

144,000 Sealed

7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

The Great Multitude in White Robes

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:


“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:


“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,


“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.

16
‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
nor any scorching heat.

17
For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[c]”


It can't be any clearer than that!
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One not taught by HS can misinterpret much( the whole reason 33,000 different religions claiming to be Christian(( but all know there is but 1(1Cor 1:10)--Jesus real teachers say 144,000 is literal--numbered--that is why the great crowd( multitude) is not numbered---showing 144,000 numbered is literal.

two different tribes mentioned in Rev compared to the 12 tribes in the ot. showing--it isn't literal Israel but spiritual Israel---which holds the meaning---Gods chosen.
 
kjw47 said:
One not taught by HS can misinterpret much( the whole reason 33,000 different religions claiming to be Christian(( but all know there is but 1(1Cor 1:10)--Jesus real teachers say 144,000 is literal--numbered--that is why the great crowd( multitude) is not numbered---showing 144,000 numbered is literal.
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And who are these Jesus' so-called "real" teachers? :lol:

and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count,

No one knows how many will actually go to heaven! So do these so-called "real" teachers a favor and show them that!



two different tribes mentioned in Rev compared to the 12 tribes in the ot. showing--it isn't literal Israel but spiritual Israel---which holds the meaning---Gods chosen.
Click to expand...


Literal or spiritual - it's still the 12 tribes of ISRAEL!

Anyway, we're not only talking about that. I'm also pointing this out:

a great multitude....... that no one could count


No one can put a number on how many will go to heaven!
 
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kjw47 said:
Jesus real teachers say 144,000 is literal--numbered--that is why the great crowd( multitude) is not numbered---showing 144,000 numbered is literal.
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Ha-ha-ha.

That is why great multitude is not numbered - showing 144,000 numbered is literal.


Looks like you're just making things up as you go... :lamo

Well, Jesus' real teachers say your statement is gibberish.
 
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