Beyond Baptism

it's just me said:

I don't know how to tell you this but your Pope was mistaken. The C of E did in fact use the proper form and matter to do what the Church has always done, not only have I examined the old Ordinals but I happen to own copies of them, and I would suggest you do the same. Your Pope did this to keep Catholics out of the Anglican church, and to do it he fell back on a technicality.

Click to expand...

But if that's the way you want it, I'll say that your Pope's pronouncement is invalid, because Biblically, he doesn't even exist. Christ did not mean to ordain a Pope, he built his church on Peter's confession, not Peter himself. If any man was first among equals in the first century Church it was Paul, who never even met the Lord, except in spirit.

See how easy it is to cause dis-unity?

For years I have defended your cause against fundamentalists, heretics, and Bible thumpers, so much so that they often think I am RCC. It's one thing to have punk kids and atheists question my orders, it really stings to have a fellow catholic (and we are brothers under the skin) disown me. From now on, you are all on your own as far as I am concerned, in this place and in all places.

Click to expand...

phattonez said:

Once the form changed, that's when the orders became invalid.



You are Peter (kepha), and on this rock (kepha), I will build my Church.

Honestly, to ignore the obvious play on words and the context which gives more evidence, it is far from easy to claim that there is no evidence for the supremacy of Peter and the institution of the Papacy.

Click to expand...

it's just me said:

So I guess Christ is not the rock on which the Church is built...

Click to expand...

CrabCake said:

I explored Catholicism in college and gained a deep appreciation for it.

Ultimately, whether the Catholic faith has any greater claim to legitimacy than other Christian faiths rests on the question of apostolic succession. If you don't buy into the Catholic view on apostolic succession (or if you don't buy into the concept at all), then it has no higher claim to authority than any other denomination.

Believing in apostolic succession is particularly challenging if you study the medieval papacy. Given the number of times the papacy traded hands due to bribery, political machinations, the intervention of prostitutes, etc. and given the numerous schisms, the cadaver synod, and even a situation where the cardinals changed their mind and elected a second pope, it's hard to reconcile the idea of apostolic succession with the realities of what transpired. It's not impossible; we do have biblical evidence of God honoring a stolen blessing (see Jacob and Esau), but it's certainly challenging.

Click to expand...

phattonez said:

Christ is the cornerstone, Peter is like the prime minister.

Matthew 16: "And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[d] and on this rock[e] I will build my church, and the powers of death[f] shall not prevail against it.[g] 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[h] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

What are these keys to the kingdom that Jesus talks about?

Isaiah 22: Thus says the Lord God of hosts, “Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is over the household, and say to him: 16 What have you to do here and whom have you here, that you have hewn here a tomb for yourself, you who hew a tomb on the height, and carve a habitation for yourself in the rock? 17 Behold, the Lord will hurl you away violently, O you strong man. He will seize firm hold on you, 18 and whirl you round and round, and throw you like a ball into a wide land; there you shall die, and there shall be your splendid chariots, you shame of your master’s house. 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station. 20 In that day I will call my servant Eli′akim the son of Hilki′ah, 21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house. 24 And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father’s house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. 25 In that day, says the Lord of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a sure place will give way; and it will be cut down and fall, and the burden that was upon it will be cut off, for the Lord has spoken.”

Shebna and Eli'akim are like the prime ministers of the kingdom; not the king, but first in authority under the king, as it is with the pope, first in authority under Christ.

Click to expand...

it's just me said:

You missed the point of the post.

Click to expand...