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Convert or Die?

If you were given a choice to convert to Islam or Die which would you choose?

  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .
vasuderatorrent said:
I tried to explain where this theory likely originates.

Sometimes people start with the false premise that religion is bad and oppressive. That is usually not the case. I was raised in a religious home and I would describe my exposure to Christianity as beautiful, magical, amazing, peaceful, full of joy and comfort. Why would I even entertain the possibility that it wasn't true if it brought all these good things to me? That would be illogical in my opinion. My doubt was triggered by one specific event. I reconciled myself back to the faith. Then I doubted again. Then I reconciled myself back to the faith. My most recent period of doubt was triggered by a serious of painful events. Now I consider myself an atheist. The whole process has taken about 18 years. You can say that it was gradual.

If I were to share my lack of faith to people in my social circle they would be amazed and shocked. They would inspect my ears, eyes and nose. They would step back and look at me from a distance taking in my entire appearance. I would be a novelty to them because most Christians never encounter an atheist. They probably do but not an open atheist. If I am the only atheist they will ever meet, they would base their conclusion about other atheists on my experience. They would be unable to form conclusions based upon anything else. They only know one atheist.

Make sense?
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So... because YOU have problems, you think all atheists do?

No, that doesn't make sense.

There are tons of non-religious people in this country. We're the second biggest group after Christians, making up almost 15% of the populace, and close to half of those being atheist/agnostic, which is more people than are redheads or gay. If they've never met any atheists, one of two things is going on:

1. They are so cruel and judgmental that atheists avoid them.

2. They live in an extremely isolated environment.
 
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SmokeAndMirrors said:
So... because YOU have problems, you think all atheists do?
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No. You were inquiring about why Christians assume that Atheist hate God. It's just a theory. Do you have an alternate theory about why they think that?


This comment leads me to believe that you completely understand what I am saying.
smokeandmirrors said:
2. They live in an extremely isolated environment.
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You are just venting your frustrations and using me as the punching bag. That's not fair. All I offered was a possible THEORY. That's all. Be fair and stop beating me up.
 
vasuderatorrent said:
No. You were inquiring about why Christians assume that Atheist hate God. It's just a theory. Do you have an alternate theory about why they think that?

This comment leads me to believe that you completely understand what I am saying.

You are just venting your frustrations and using me as the punching bag. That's not fair. All I offered was a possible THEORY. That's all. Be fair and stop beating me up.
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Because it makes them feel safer in their beliefs to think only messed up people are atheists. Pretty simple.

My frustrations? Dude, I live in a city. I have no problems around here for being an atheist.

You are the one "theorizing" that atheists are messed up, despite no evidence of that. If calling you out on it is "beating you up," then I don't understand what you're doing on a debate site. If you just want people to nod their heads and agree with everything you say no matter how baseless or offensive it is, find the appropriate place for that. This ain't it.
 
vasuderatorrent said:
This is a fair question. Try to imagine a person born as an evangelical Christian. He believes everything he is told. His life is perfect and wonderful. He never witnesses any hateful acts by church authorities. He never experiences a traumatic experience such as the death of loved one at a young age. He never experiences the rejection of a spouse. His life is almost perfect. This person has no reason at all to question his faith in Jesus Christ. Even if this person has above average intelligence he still has no reason to go on a soul search. This person will live as an evangelical Christian his entire life and die a happy man.

Are you with me so far?

The same person I just described encounters a traumatic event such as the death of his 6 year old daughter. That really sucks and this person is going to demand some answers. This isn't fair that his 6 year old daughter died. Somebody must be responsible. Guess what? God is the first on his hit list. He becomes angry with God but this doesn't relieve him of his inquiring mind. His hate for God makes him feel guilty and question his anger. This man may read the Bible 1 or 2 times to find the answers to life. Then he starts to see that his religion is just a stack of cards. It's all fine until the wind blows a little bit. Most deconversions happen in this manner. First: Evangelical Christian Second: Anti-theist Third: Atheist. In most Christian circles people only know other Christians therefore the only atheist that they would ever encounter would be a former Christian who lost his faith through a traumatic and painful experience. All atheist known to the Christian community did spend a period of time that they were angry at God and may still hold onto that angry even though it may not be logical.

Make sense?
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Once upon a time I was very active in The Compassionate Friends, an international self-help group for bereaved parents, and I observed that sometimes, those who were the most devout became the most angry with God. They would say, "But I was thankful--I thanked Him every day, and yet He took my child away." Most of them, once they had emerged from the deep-grief phase, moved beyond this anger and came to understand that they rain falls on both the just and unjust.

Some people never do emerge from grief and become cases of arrested development. But just so we're clear, there are evangelical Christians (and others, of course) who do experience betrayal of a spouse and other life tragedies whose faith remains strong and, in fact, grows through adversity.

Humorous to me that you would think that so many are naïve and credulous.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
You are the one "theorizing" that atheists are messed up, despite no evidence of that.
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You missed my point or you are ignoring it. My theory was about why people think atheist hate God. Do you remember saying this:

SmokeAndMirrors said:
Why do religious people have such a hard time understanding the concept that atheists don't hate or disdain god?
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I tried to answer your question. Did you really want an answer or were you using that as a trap so that you could verbally assault somebody?

I gave you an answer. I suppose that was stupid on my part. I should have ignored your question. That's probably what you wanted.
 
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vasuderatorrent said:
You missed my point or you are ignoring it. My theory was about why people think atheist hate God. Do you remember saying this:
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I didn't. I addressed it. You gave two answers. First, you tried to say that most atheists are damaged. After I call you on that, you said atheists are so rare that no one ever meets one. Then I called you on that. Now you're just saying I'm a meanie.

Saying what?

ETA: Actually it turns out I'm giving you too much credit. After you talked about how atheists only become so after traumatic events where they fail to deal with their grief and subsequently become bitter people, you said this:

vasuderatorrent said:
All atheist known to the Christian community did spend a period of time that they were angry at God and may still hold onto that angry even though it may not be logical.
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You literally said that ALL atheists who were once Christian are traumatized people who supposedly hate the god they don't even believe in.

You are taking your own problems and trying to apply them to millions of other people.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
You literally said that ALL atheists who were once Christian are traumatized people who supposedly hate the god they don't even believe in.
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I'll agree to that. I did say that or something similar. This only accounts for a small percentage of atheist. This does however account for almost 100% of the type of atheist that Christians meet.

Be honest. You are utilizing me as a scapegoat. You are attacking me for a belief held by some group of people that angers you. You are not attacking me for my beliefs or attacking me for anything that I have said. You are attacking me for a popular mentality that you have encountered.

I'm not mad at you. I'm just say that isn't fair. You have to agree that isn't fair. I shouldn't be criticized for the beliefs of other people that you don't like.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
You literally said that ALL atheists who were once Christian are traumatized people who supposedly hate the god they don't even believe in.
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Fact check:

vasuderatorrent said:
All atheist known to the Christian community did spend a period of time that they were angry at God and may still hold onto that angry even though it may not be logical.
Click to expand...

Can you or anybody else in here point out any differences in the two statements?
 
vasuderatorrent said:
What is your point? The issue is: Convert or Die.
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i didn't have a point but what is the point of convert or die ?...we are not exist so someone could came and catch us to tell hey convert or die
 
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vasuderatorrent said:
...
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Your attempts to make it near-impossible for me to address you by cutting up my singular post into a million of your own so you can make me waste more time and deny both my and your own words, which I did provide, is noted. Not worth my time.
 
vasuderatorrent said:
Fact check:

Can you or anybody else in here point out any differences in the two statements?
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I can but the statement is still factually wrong. There are many atheists know to the Christian community who were never any religion to begin with and have never held any anger towards God. Do you perhaps mean to say that there are many former Christian atheists who held, and may still hold, an hatred of God?

vasuderatorrent said:
I'll agree to that. I did say that or something similar. This only accounts for a small percentage of atheist. This does however account for almost 100% of the type of atheist that Christians meet.
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Yes I am responding backwards through the thread.

At best I only 75% of those I've met hold such anger, currently or in the past, and I am being generous in what I am allowing for "hatred". This is consistent with other Christians I know. I will say that damn near 100% of the vitriolic atheists, like many here on DP, fit your description. But I am willing to bet that they are a vocal glaring minority, not the majority.

vasuderatorrent said:
You missed my point or you are ignoring it. My theory was about why people think atheist hate God. Do you remember saying this:

I tried to answer your question. Did you really want an answer or were you using that as a trap so that you could verbally assault somebody?

I gave you an answer. I suppose that was stupid on my part. I should have ignored your question. That's probably what you wanted.
Click to expand...

You'd have done better if you had presented it as one of many possible reasons/causes/theories. You presenting it as the cause or reason, even just being a theory, was the stupid part.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Your attempts to make it near-impossible for me to address you by cutting up my singular post into a million of your own so you can make me waste more time and deny both my and your own words, which I did provide, is noted. Not worth my time.
Click to expand...

Understood.
 
vasuderatorrent said:
2.6 Billion Christians worldwide and 1 Billion Muslims worldwide serves are pretty strong evidence against your claim. These religions have thrived, do thrive and will continue to thrive under pressure and violence. Maybe the 1st generation convert wasn't sincere but the 2nd generation and beyond were sincere followers who converted voluntarily to follow the only God they know. Billions of souls have been saved by the use of violence even if you do discount the 1st generation convert from your calculations.
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Or, it could be 'billions of souls have been lost by use of violence'.
 
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