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tosca1 said:
Are there any evidences of the existence of Krishna?
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Cable said:
The stories are vaguely similar, but the Christ and Krishna are not. One sows confusion to suggest such a thing.

“God made him, who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God”
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Logicman said:
Tsk tsk. Here's the reality:
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Honestly I don't know enough about Krishna in order to defend that, so I'll concede on their similarity. I did however say in my post that that is beside the point.

Nilly said:
Well hinduism does. Krishna was a son of god that was sent down from heaven to cleanse humanity of our sin, was born of a virgin, was considered the second part of a trinity and died before being resurrected.

But that is beside the point, I don't really understand why that matters???? Why does the claim that god sent down his son to die make any religion better than a different one??? All of them claim salvation in one form or another.
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The bolded section is the part that I really wanted answered.
 
Nilly said:
The bolded section is the part that I really wanted answered.
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Just to pre-empt the inevitable bible quotation here as an answer... really??? What is laid down in the bible is true because....... the bible says so?

Is there really no recognition of circular reasoning here?
 
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tosca1 said:
You're babbling.



Hello? Genesis involves the Number 1 LAW! OBEDIENCE to God.

See the consequence of disobedience?
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You have to understand that the Jewish faith is more than just the scriptures. It is the scriptures, plus tradition, plus the Oral law. There is a specific concept that comes from Genesis 32:22-32 called 'Wrestling with God'. It basically means that to use your own brains, your own intelligence and your own judgement, and not blindly swallow taking the bible literally. It is confrontation and engagement with God, and what is said about God, rather than just pure submission.

It's not being this little sheep following a shepard, who gets to tell you everything, but using reason rather than whining about if you don't do such and such you will be going to the bbq pit.
 
Nilly said:
Just to pre-empt the inevitable bible quotation here as an answer... really??? What is laid down in the bible is true because....... the bible says so?

Is there really no recognition of circular reasoning here?
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You might look at it that way with a cursory view, but if you go a bit deeper you will see it has it's own integrity.
And it tends to mesh with what you know to be the truth, at least for those so inclined as to respect the truth.
 
Cable said:
You might look at it that way with a cursory view, but if you go a bit deeper you will see it has it's own integrity.
And it tends to mesh with what you know to be the truth, at least for those so inclined as to respect the truth.
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But every divine scripture makes that exact same claim. Why is the bibles claim more valid...?
 
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Nilly said:
Honestly I don't know enough about Krishna in order to defend that, so I'll concede on their similarity. I did however say in my post that that is beside the point. The bolded section is the part that I really wanted answered.
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But that is beside the point, I don't really understand why that matters???? Why does the claim that god sent down his son to die make any religion better than a different one??? All of them claim salvation in one form or another.
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Why that would matter will depend on your own reason as to why you're interested in, and/or seeking religion.

If you seek it to fill that void inside you, and to find God and opt for eternal life with Him (as I did).....of course it matters that you worship that true God.
 
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RAMOSS said:
You have to understand that the Jewish faith is more than just the scriptures. It is the scriptures, plus tradition, plus the Oral law. There is a specific concept that comes from Genesis 32:22-32 called 'Wrestling with God'. It basically means that to use your own brains, your own intelligence and your own judgement, and not blindly swallow taking the bible literally. It is confrontation and engagement with God, and what is said about God, rather than just pure submission.

It's not being this little sheep following a shepard, who gets to tell you everything, but using reason rather than whining about if you don't do such and such you will be going to the bbq pit.
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Jesus was a Jew, for crying out loud....and raised in the Jewish faith and tradition!

And Christians know what Jesus had to say to the Pharisees as to how they had corrupted the worship of God.
All you have to do is read the history of Israel in the OT! It's a continuous cycle of DISOBEDIENCE and incurring GOD'S WRATH/PUNISHMENTS! Jews, of all people, should've learned that by now.

Everything boils down to HUMBLE SUBMISSION TO GOD!
 
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Nilly said:
Well hinduism does. Krishna was a son of god that was sent down from heaven to cleanse humanity of our sin, was born of a virgin, was considered the second part of a trinity and died before being resurrected.

But that is beside the point, I don't really understand why that matters???? Why does the claim that god sent down his son to die make any religion better than a different one??? All of them claim salvation in one form or another.
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It is a fair question. If one does not care about God, nor about Truth, then it would not matter one bit.
If one seeks truth, and God, then it matters greatly.
But I wouldn't say one is better than another. One is simply the truth. Others are counterfeits. God created us for himself, not for us. He loves us.
We are rebellious at heart. We need his Son to be reconciled, knowing we are not good in and of ourselves. Knowing this is the critical key to his saving grace.

What holds the Gospels together?
Christs amazing words. No one else spoke as he did. Ever. And they testify to the truth of God.
His disciples went willingly to death because of him. Why would they do that?
If he was a liar or a mad man they would not have done that.

Lastly, Paul's testimony 1 Cor 15:

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
 
Cable said:
His disciples went willingly to death because of him. Why would they do that?
If he was a liar or a mad man they would not have done that.
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Many people have died because of a belief in a cult.
 
zyzygy said:
Many people have died because of a belief in a cult.
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You do have a good point. The bottom line is what you believe to be truth. Or, if one is like Pilate, we can simply deny, asking "What is truth?"

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
 
tosca1 said:
Jesus was a Jew, for crying out loud....and raised in the Jewish faith and tradition!

And Christians know what Jesus had to say to the Pharisees as to how they had corrupted the worship of God.
All you have to do is read the history of Israel in the OT! It's a continuous cycle of DISOBEDIENCE and incurring GOD'S WRATH/PUNISHMENTS! Jews, of all people, should've learned that by now.

Everything boils down to HUMBLE SUBMISSION TO GOD!
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If Jesus existed, then yes, yes he was a Jew. However, the people who wrote about him were either Gentile or from a Hellenized Jewish tradition, and what is said he said is probably quite different that what is claimed he said.

And, what he said or didn't' say doesn't mean a hill of beans to me. Come to think of it , the things Jesus supposedly said about the Pharisees about following the letter and not the spirit of the law can apply to the vast majority of Christians today.
 
RAMOSS said:
If Jesus existed, then yes, yes he was a Jew. However, the people who wrote about him were either Gentile or from a Hellenized Jewish tradition, and what is said he said is probably quite different that what is claimed he said.

And, what he said or didn't' say doesn't mean a hill of beans to me. Come to think of it , the things Jesus supposedly said about the Pharisees about following the letter and not the spirit of the law can apply to the vast majority of Christians today.
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:roll:


You don't need the New Testament for that history of Israel - the never-ending cycle of their disobedience and punishments from God! You should revisit the Old Testament!
 
tosca1 said:
:roll:


You don't need the New Testament for that history of Israel - the never-ending cycle of their disobedience and punishments from God! You should revisit the Old Testament!
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From what I see, you dont' understand what you call 'the Old Testament' at all. However, that is ok. It's not your book. It is the book of the Jewiish people.
 
NT prohibition on women speaking at church:

"34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church."

Bitches get stitches if they ask questions in church.
 
NT prohibition on women speaking at church:

"34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church."

Bitches get stitches if they ask questions in church.
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Tucker Case said:
Do you speak in church?
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You mean, as in preaching? No.

But we've had women leading prayers or hymns on the pulpit, or making announcements. Women are encouraged to participate or to organize their own ministries (outreach and worship events/activities).

Since we've joined this church, if I'm not mistaken there was a woman invited to speak before the congregation....so, a woman preacher isn't forbidden in our church. The same thing happened in another Baptist church we used to attend. I, by choice, didn't attend church on those occasion.


I don't know about the "bitches" part - if that's meant to, or supposed to "shame" women who humbly submit to the instructions of God - but yeah, there are designated roles for men and women.
 
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tosca1 said:
You mean, as in preaching? No.
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The prohibition isn't on preaching, it's on speaking at all. Have you ever spoken in church? Such as asking a question? If you desire to learn something do you ask your husband at home?

But we've had women leading prayers or hymns on the pulpit, or making announcements. Women are encouraged to participate or to organize their own ministries (outreach and worship events/activities).

Since we've joined this church, if I'm not mistaken there was a woman invited to speak before the congregation....so, a woman preacher isn't forbidden in our church. The same thing happened in another Baptist church we used to attend. I, by choice, didn't attend church on those occasion.
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So your church actively violates the new testament's prohibition of female speech in church.

Did you choose not to attend because of that fact?

I don't know about the "bitches" part - if that's meant to, or supposed to "shame" women who humbly submit to the instructions of God - but yeah, there are designated roles for men and women.
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Why should a woman feel shame because of Paul's sexism?
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Tucker Case said:
The prohibition isn't on preaching, it's on speaking at all. Have you ever spoken in church? Such as asking a question? If you desire to learn something do you ask your husband at home?
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You quoted from 1 Cor 14.
The whole chapter is tied together. It should be understood in that context.


Intelligibility in Worship

14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:


“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”[e]

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”


Good Order in Worship

26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.

34 Women[f] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.[g]

36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.[h]

39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.



Here is one of the explanations for that.

Let your women keep silence in the churches,.... This is a restriction of, and an exception to one of the above rules, that all might prophesy; in which he would be understood of men only, and not of women; and is directed against a practice which seems to have prevailed in this church at Corinth, allowing women to preach and teach in it; and this being a disorderly practice, and what was not used in other churches, the apostle forbids and condemns, and not without reason:

for it is not permitted unto them to speak; that is, in public assemblies, in the church of God, they might not speak with tongues, nor prophesy, or preach, or teach the word. All speaking is not prohibited; they might speak their experiences to the church, or give an account of the work of God upon their souls; they might speak to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs; or speak as an evidence in any case at a church meeting; but not in such sort, as carried in it direction, instruction, government, and authority.

It was not allowed by God that they should speak in any authoritative manner in the church; nor was it suffered in the churches of Christ; nor was it admitted of in the Jewish synagogue; there, we are told (b), the men came to teach, and the women "to hear": and one of their canons runs thus (c);

1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
 
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Tucker Case said:
Why should a woman feel shame because of Paul's sexism?
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I was referring to your statement about "bitches get stitches if they ask questions in church."
 
Tucker Case said:
Why should a woman feel shame because of Paul's sexism?
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:lol:

Bingo.

Here comes the inspiration from the feminist propaganda. :lol:

Let me just re-post what I'd said earlier:


There is no anti-female part in the Bible.
That would mean the female is singled-out for persecution, or maltreatment.....that she has no value.

That's just a spin the ignorant anti-Christians want to use to gain support from feminists .....

same way they want to use homosexuals by their false claim that Christians hate homosexuals.
 
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Tucker Case said:
So your church actively violates the new testament's prohibition of female speech in church.
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I can't say if it violated anything since I didn't know what was said.

And if the woman came as a preacher, I wouldn't describe the church as having ACTIVELY violated the law. f ever, chances are the church felt pressured to accommodate women preaching due to the current clime.

It's no secret that churches see dwindling members, and some, unfortunately try to remedy that problem by conforming to the demands of this world.


Did you choose not to attend because of that fact?
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Yes. I did my worship at home.

Btw, we do have a women's group and every month the group meets and invites female inspirational speakers....and we have a sumptuous potluck brunch!
 
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Tucker Case said:
The prohibition isn't on preaching, it's on speaking at all. Have you ever spoken in church? Such as asking a question? If you desire to learn something do you ask your husband at home?
But we've had women leading prayers or hymns on the pulpit, or making announcements. Women are encouraged to participate or to organize their own ministries (outreach and worship events/activities).
So your church actively violates the new testament's prohibition of female speech in church.
Did you choose not to attend because of that fact?
Why should a woman feel shame because of Paul's sexism?
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I found an interesting scripture this morning: 15“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."
......
23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24“You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
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Cable said:
Tucker Case said:
The prohibition isn't on preaching, it's on speaking at all. Have you ever spoken in church? Such as asking a question? If you desire to learn something do you ask your husband at home?


I found an interesting scripture this morning: 15“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."
......
23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24“You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
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That sounds like many Christians... (not all, but many). People get ego involved with themselves, and forget about giving back to the community. It seems like it's just human nature.
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Nilly said:
I let Christians educate me on scripture, and what you quoted me on is the conclusion that I have come to based on what they tell me...

Why? There's far too much scripture out there for me to read. The bible, the qur'an, the bhagavad gita, the shinto kojiki, the book of mormon, the book of shadows, dianetics, the torah, the tripitaka, the avesta. Why should I give precedence to the bible? They all claim the same thing, that they are the one true divine work.
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Just read Baha'u'llah. He explains why most of the aforementioned stem from the same one God. ;)
 
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