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Is religion a choice?

Rainman05 said:
It is a choice... only not in India... or in the islamic world... or in China where you get killed for practicing a religion... but it is a choice that more often than not you're denied.
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One can chose not to believe. Anyone who growing up and not believing the religion of their parents, extended family and primary social groups spends quite a bit of time pretending. It's a lot easier that way. You live the lie. You may get married and you may continue to live the lie and then there might be children along the way and "for their sake", you continue the lie. It happens probably more than we know. Just because you no longer believe in a religion doesn't mean that you must find or want to find another religion to replace it. It is likely what people do in countries where they have no other choice but to submit to a religion.

Going through the motions of a religion means next to nothing. It doesn't make you a religious person.
 
DDD said:
So, there is no free will?
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That's a whole different kettle of fish but in simple terms I'll say yes, we do have free will but it isn't unconditional. In this context that really reflects our inability to choose what we believe but our having complete freedom to do whatever we want about it (even where that is logically inconsistant with those beliefs).

Human beings are weird. :confused:
 
Risky Thicket said:
One can chose not to believe. Anyone who growing up and not believing the religion of their parents, extended family and primary social groups spends quite a bit of time pretending. It's a lot easier that way. You live the lie. You may get married and you may continue to live the lie and then there might be children along the way and "for their sake", you continue the lie. It happens probably more than we know. Just because you no longer believe in a religion doesn't mean that you must find or want to find another religion to replace it. It is likely what people do in countries where they have no other choice but to submit to a religion.

Going through the motions of a religion means next to nothing. It doesn't make you a religious person.
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I thought of that, but still, not much choice now is there.

You can't choose to not conform. In some level, even if it's praying and kneeling 5 times a day or in the case of india, stay in your caste and not do anything "un-caste"-like, you're still not free.

And say you are indeed, an atheist in saudi arabia who pretends to be a muslim. Maybe one day you find out that an atheist was just put to death earlier that day. Maybe in a month you find that anotherone was put to death for being an atheist. What sort of life is that? Knowing that if someone accuses you of apostasy you're going to die. That's not life.


There is only 1 society where people actually have a choice and that's western civilization. Nowhere else do you really have a choice. Which is why western civilization must be defended and not surrendered to those who would rob away that choice.
 
You can make most people believe in what you want if you reach them early enough, but not everyone. There will always be those that refuse to accept your ideas and your notions of how things should be. There will always be those that have spent the time to explore their own mind and their own opinions on things and weighed that against what they were taught when they were young. The idea that force ever really solves anything must ignore these people and pretend as if they don't exist or their opinion is of less importance than the opinion of the majority or those that rule over the territorial area. Religion in this respect is really no different than any other aspect of life including law.

Force can make people comply to another persons views, but those people that impose it can never be assured that their views are held by those they are imposing them on. In fact, those that are imposing their views on others will always be concerned of disagreement and will always be willing to unleash a punishment if someone acts or believes outside of their accepted standards. Again, religion in this respect is no different than any other aspect of life.
 
DDD said:
How to fall into something unknown yet?
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I don't understand your question.


Henrin said:
You can make most people believe in what you want if you reach them earlier enough, but not everyone. There will always be those that refuse to accept your ideas and your notions of how things should be. There will always be those that have spent the time to explore their own mind and their own opinions on things and weighed that against what they were taught when they were young. The idea that force ever really solves anything must ignore these people and pretend as if they don't exist or their opinion is of less importance than the opinion of the majority or those that rule over the territorial area. Religion in this respect is really no different than any other aspect of life including law.

Force can make people comply to another persons views, but they can never be assured that their views are held by those they are imposing them on. In fact, those that are imposing their views on others will always be concerned of disagreement and will always be willing to unleash a punishment if someone acts or believes outside of their accepted standards. Again, religion in this respect is no different than any other aspect of life.
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I don't disagree with this, though I don't think "force" is used much anymore, at least in western societies... save maybe family pressure, etc. In some parts of the world, however, it is still being done, absolutely.
 
radcen said:
Is religion a choice?

The question is not as simplistic as it seems on the surface. The question is also aimed at people who are, have been, or claim to be, religious.

Aspects to consider...
  • People are "born into" specific religions/faiths in the sense that their family is of a particular faith
  • This aspect usually means more for some religions/faiths (i.e.: Judiasm, etc.) than others
  • Yes, people do often 'drop out of' their faith and either change faiths or drop religious faith completely, so in that sense it is a choice
  • Yet, some people who do change or drop their faith often still identify in some manner with their previous faith
  • The modern era is lessening this aspect somewhat, especially in western societies, but it still applies definitively in some regions and cultures of the world
So, what say you?
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Born into, doesn't mean they must remain.

People change, people choose.
 
Rainman05 said:
There is only 1 society where people actually have a choice and that's western civilization. Nowhere else do you really have a choice. Which is why western civilization must be defended and not surrendered to those who would rob away that choice.
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But that's just the thing. Many in western civilizations don't have a choice because they've been born and raised into a way of thinking.
It's almost like being left handed or right handed, or gay or straight. It's not a conscious choice for most.

They might say it is, but what they are talking about and what this thread is about are two different things.

You chose which church to belong to. You chose which book to believe. You chose which dogma to follow.

But your internal "belief" in whatever it is you believe in is not a choice for most people.

They've been effectively "brainwashed" into having no choice.

Now a lot of people are going to have issues with the word "brainwashed", maybe call it "conditioned".

They were raised to believe in something bigger, larger, or omnipotent. A "creator".

Many people may change that feeling or belief. They may change how they practice it, or follow it, but they still have a religious belief at their very core.

This isn't equivalent to making a choice to stop smoking for instance.
 
radcen said:
I don't understand your question.



I don't disagree with this, though I don't think "force" is used much anymore, at least in western societies... save maybe family pressure, etc. In some parts of the world, however, it is still being done, absolutely.
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Perhaps not, but we associate and consider those that force religious views and practices on their people as our friends and allies. A great example of this would be our relationship with Israel.
 
Dragonfly said:
But that's just the thing. Many in western civilizations don't have a choice because they've been born and raised into a way of thinking.
It's almost like being left handed or right handed, or gay or straight. It's not a conscious choice for most.

They might say it is, but what they are talking about and what this thread is about are two different things.

You chose which church to belong to. You chose which book to believe. You chose which dogma to follow.

But your internal "belief" in whatever it is you believe in is not a choice for most people.

They've been effectively "brainwashed" into having no choice.

Now a lot of people are going to have issues with the word "brainwashed", maybe call it "conditioned".

They were raised to believe in something bigger, larger, or omnipotent. A "creator".

Many people may change that feeling or belief. They may change how they practice it, or follow it, but they still have a religious belief at their very core.

This isn't equivalent to making a choice to stop smoking for instance.
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The fact that the highest levels of atheism exists in europe and the western world disprove the fact that you have no choice in western society.


Maybe 200 years ago it was as you claim, something handed down which most people didn't care to examine or change, but today, that's the exception rather than the norm. And also, even 200 years ago, if you chose to stop believing you wouldn't be executed for it. Hell, not even 300 years ago you wouldn't be. basically, once the 30 years war was over.

the point is, most people who are, say, in their 20s today in the western world and are religious to whatever extent they are, or are atheists to whatever extent they are, and anything in between, are so because either
A) they made the choice to be this way
B) they couldn't care less about the whole religion vs atheist thing which is exactly the way we should all be. It's simply too low on their spectrum of ambitions to give a thought about it. Their choice was to ignore it.

And it is only western civilization that safeguards you to make either choice.
 
Rainman05 said:
The fact that the highest levels of atheism exists in europe and the western world disprove the fact that you have no choice in western society.


Maybe 200 years ago it was as you claim, something handed down which most people didn't care to examine or change, but today, that's the exception rather than the norm. And also, even 200 years ago, if you chose to stop believing you wouldn't be executed for it. Hell, not even 300 years ago you wouldn't be. basically, once the 30 years war was over.

the point is, most people who are, say, in their 20s today in the western world and are religious to whatever extent they are, or are atheists to whatever extent they are, and anything in between, are so because either
A) they made the choice to be this way
B) they couldn't care less about the whole religion vs atheist thing which is exactly the way we should all be. It's simply too low on their spectrum of ambitions to give a thought about it. Their choice was to ignore it.

And it is only western civilization that safeguards you to make either choice.
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*sigh* .... reading comprehension.....


I never, NEVER said that 100% of all people in the entire universe have no choice at all. Not once.

I've said plenty of times that MOST/MANY people don't.

That's two completely different statements.
 
Dragonfly said:
*sigh* .... reading comprehension.....


I never, NEVER said that 100% of all people in the entire universe have no choice at all. Not once.

I've said plenty of times that MOST/MANY people don't.

That's two completely different statements.
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I can assure you that I read everything you wrote and that my reply addresses the points which I intended to make in regards to your comment to my comment.

I know what you're getting to. You're trying to say that how can you actually make a choice if you've been taught something, in a one-sided way, about what you should believe. Doesn't that interfere with the concept of making a choice? Because after all, you aren't being told both sides or all the sides of the argument.

And I tell you: no, no it doesn't, not in the western world. Because there is the other side of the argument to which you can listen. Because the other side is free to express itself.
You cannot be "brainwashed" into having no choice in the west. Unless ofc you hold someone in a basement all their lives and only expose them to yourself and your views.
 
Religion shouldn't be a choice. What I mean by that is, if a person cares about whether or not their beliefs are true, they'll simply let the evidence they have lead them to their conclusion. They won't *choose* their conclusion. It'll be a bottom up process where the conclusion is a logical consequence of the evidence they have and how they interpret it, not a top down process where the conclusion is consciously decided upon. The fact that many religious people describe their belief as a *choice* shows that there's something fundamentally flawed with the way in which they arrived at those beliefs. I don't *choose* to believe that I'm poor. I don't *choose* to believe that I'm asian. I don't *choose* to believe that the American government isn't doing a good job.

That the biggest determining factor in a person's religious belief is their upbringing is another strong indication that religious belief isn't arrived at through rational means. After all, there are no other areas of knowledge where we reach conclusions in this manner (ones so heavily influenced by our upbringing and/ or a conscious decision to believe).
 
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MarineTpartier said:
Please point to where I said I think she's an atheist and we can continue.
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I'm pointing. Look down.

MarineTpartier said:
I was born this way......sorry couldn't help myself lol. I believe it is a choice. Exhibit A is Katy Perry. She was raised in a Christian home and taught very fundamental values. Im fairly certain by her actions that she doesn't practice that anymore. There are a lot of examples of this in our worls. Seems like an eash answer to me.
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Perhaps I misunderstood then.

What did you mean by the whole "I believe it is a choice. Exhibit A is Katy Perry. She was raised in a Christian home and taught very fundamental values. Im fairly certain by her actions that she doesn't practice that anymore. There are a lot of examples of this in our worls. Seems like an eash answer to me."

Are you not suggesting that Katy Perry made a choice to "not be religious"?
 
People have a choice, but that doesn't mean that all of them will take advantage of that ability to decide.
 
I was born into a religion.

But, I thought my way out of it.
 
HonestJoe said:
That's a whole different kettle of fish but in simple terms I'll say yes, we do have free will but it isn't unconditional. In this context that really reflects our inability to choose what we believe but our having complete freedom to do whatever we want about it (even where that is logically inconsistant with those beliefs).

Human beings are weird. :confused:
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Nah, this is just an overcomplication. Plus the paragraph contradicts itself.
 
DDD said:
Just that deists do not have faith because it is unknown. Some run on a hunch and no more.
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Behold....a deist with faith. (see below) :mrgreen:

Paxaeon said:
`
I'm a Deist. I believe in the existence of some kind of supreme divinity....whatever it is.
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"I believe in the existence of some kind of supreme divinity" <---- that's faith my friend....plain and simple
 
zoetherat said:
Religion shouldn't be a choice. What I mean by that is, if a person cares about whether or not their beliefs are true, they'll simply let the evidence they have lead them to their conclusion. They won't *choose* their conclusion. It'll be a bottom up process where the conclusion is a logical consequence of the evidence they have and how they interpret it, not a top down process where the conclusion is consciously decided upon. The fact that many religious people describe their belief as a *choice* shows that there's something fundamentally flawed with the way in which they arrived at those beliefs. I don't *choose* to believe that I'm poor. I don't *choose* to believe that I'm asian. I don't *choose* to believe that the American government isn't doing a good job.

That the biggest determining factor in a person's religious belief is their upbringing is another strong indication that religious belief isn't arrived at through rational means. After all, there are no other areas of knowledge where we reach conclusions in this manner (ones so heavily influenced by our upbringing and/ or a conscious decision to believe).
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:yt I agree with this above. :yt
 
DDD said:
Just that deists do not have faith because it is unknown. Some run on a hunch and no more.
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Ah, got'cha.

To me, that is faith... belief in something but unable to prove it or demonstrate it, i.e.: technically unknown.
 
"I believe in the existence of some kind of supreme divinity" <---- that's faith my friend....plain and simple
`
Duh....you can believe something exists but not have faith in it.
 
Paxaeon said:
"I believe in the existence of some kind of supreme divinity" <---- that's faith my friend....plain and simple
`
Duh....you can believe something exists but not have faith in it.
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Faith = Belief

Interchangeable. Equal. Same thing. Semantics.
 
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