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Malachi 1:11

RAMOSS said:
Funny thing, you repeated yourself, didn't address one point, and brought up one with all the mistranslations intact.

And no, so many chapters of Isaiah talk about the nation of Israel, or a sign to King Ahaz, or a reference to Hezekiah. Christian missionaries love to misrepresent things, but educated people who those are misrepresentations.. often times purposeful misrepresentations.
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All those verses by Isaiah from various chapters are straight forward. Furthermore they're collaborated by other prophets in other books.

You're just stating an opinion....yet not rebutting anything I gave above.

Ignoring them does not make the truth go away. :)
 
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tosca1 said:
All those verses by Isaiah from various chapters are straight forward. Furthermore they're collaborated by other prophets in other books.

You're just stating an opinion....yet not rebutting anything I gave above.

Ignoring them does not make the truth go away. :)
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That's because you didn't bother responding to the information I gave. That issue was already discussed, and you merely pointed to a web site that fumed anybody but them is wrong, everyone from Calvinists to Muslims.

Sorry, but I do not see evidence you actually understand what even you posted.
It appears you found some place that matched your opinion, and merely cut/paste without understanding.

I noticed one thing your sources did NOT do is discuss the context of the servant songs, and look at the original Hebrew. They also depending on bad translations, with little things as the tenses, numbers and things like that.. and.. oh.. context. ..
 
RAMOSS said:
That's because you didn't bother responding to the information I gave. That issue was already discussed, and you merely pointed to a web site that fumed anybody but them is wrong, everyone from Calvinists to Muslims.

Sorry, but I do not see evidence you actually understand what even you posted.
It appears you found some place that matched your opinion, and merely cut/paste without understanding.

I noticed one thing your sources did NOT do is discuss the context of the servant songs, and look at the original Hebrew. They also depending on bad translations, with little things as the tenses, numbers and things like that.. and.. oh.. context. ..
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The quoted Isaiah verses I gave (and the questions I asked), rebutted your source.
 
tosca1 said:
The quoted Isaiah verses I gave (and the questions I asked), rebutted your source.
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I do not see evidence of that, considering that 1) they were two different authors and 2) you didn't bother to address the context of the servant songs.

Ignoring context (i.e, quoting from a whole different author) doesn't mean a hill of beans.

The two issues that your cut/paste did not address is 1) what Isaiah 40 to 54 actually says, rather than one or two lines out of context, 2) address the issue that the Christian translations are inaccurate.

However, it seems that there is an emotional investment for you, and facts don't matter.
 
ecofarm said:
The pure offering is faith (belief in God's sovereignty). Even if incomplete and imperfect, faith itself is pure.
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To expand on this...

If our faith can't be the offering because our sinful selves can't make it pure, than what can we make pure?
 
In regards to the OP, I believe those verses in Malachi are in regard to the temple. The angel Moroni quoted Malachi to Joseph Smith and that those verses were about to be fulfilled. Currently there are 143 LDS temples around the world with another 27 either under construction or announced. During the millennium the temple of God will be in all nations.

"The standard of truth has been erected; No un-hallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done."-Joseph Smith
 
laska said:
In regards to the OP, I believe those verses in Malachi are in regard to the temple. The angel Moroni quoted Malachi to Joseph Smith and that those verses were about to be fulfilled. Currently there are 143 LDS temples around the world with another 27 either under construction or announced. During the millennium the temple of God will be in all nations.

"The standard of truth has been erected; No un-hallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done."-Joseph Smith
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Except for the part where Jesus abandoned humanity for about 2000 years according to that theory.
 
phattonez said:
Except for the part where Jesus abandoned humanity for about 2000 years according to that theory.
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Yet the covenant nation of Israel was destroyed and scattered for about two thousand years. I doubt many ancient Israelites besides the prophets would have ever guessed that and it undermines YOUR theory. And the priesthood not being on the earth because the people on the earth killing those with the true priesthood doesn't mean God abandoned humanity. People still could have their prayers answered and guided by the Holy Ghost to a lesser degree, and those who would have accepted the true authorized religion and not false religious teachers will have no blessing denied in the next life. The Bible predicts the great apostasy, the Book of Daniel gives an exact prophecy tied to how long it will be before the true authorized gospel is restored that matches perfectly with the martydom date of Joseph and Hyrum.
 
laska said:
Yet the covenant nation of Israel was destroyed and scattered for about two thousand years.
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Their covenant is done. It is over. They voided it with their adultery (worshiping foreign gods).

Jeremiah 31:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord."

I doubt many ancient Israelites besides the prophets would have ever guessed that and it undermines YOUR theory. And the priesthood not being on the earth because the people on the earth killing those with the true priesthood doesn't mean God abandoned humanity. People still could have their prayers answered and guided by the Holy Ghost to a lesser degree, and those who would have accepted the true authorized religion and not false religious teachers will have no blessing denied in the next life. The Bible predicts the great apostasy, the Book of Daniel gives an exact prophecy tied to how long it will be before the true authorized gospel is restored that matches perfectly with the martydom date of Joseph and Hyrum.
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According to the LDS, there was no Church for about 2000 years. That is an abandonment, while Jesus taught: "I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Notice how he said "always" and not "except for an interval of about 2000 years".
 
phattonez said:
Their covenant is done. It is over. They voided it with their adultery (worshiping foreign gods).

Jeremiah 31:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord."



According to the LDS, there was no Church for about 2000 years. That is an abandonment, while Jesus taught: "I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Notice how he said "always" and not "except for an interval of about 2000 years".
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We interpret Biblical scripture differently. Here is the LDS view: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2006/10/the-gathering-of-scattered-israel?lang=eng
 
phattonez said:
This does not confront the verse from Jeremiah.
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I could quote scripture after scripture showing your interpretation is wrong but it won't change your mind. We've debated before. You are free to believe what you want, as am I.
 
laska said:
I could quote scripture after scripture showing your interpretation is wrong but it won't change your mind. We've debated before. You are free to believe what you want, as am I.
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Yes you are, but how you can deal with Jesus abandoning His Church for 2000 years is a problem that I'd rather not face.
 
phattonez said:
Yes you are, but how you can deal with Jesus abandoning His Church for 2000 years is a problem that I'd rather not face.
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According to JWs and Adventists, he did not abandon his church. Where do you get that idea?
 
phattonez said:
Yes you are, but how you can deal with Jesus abandoning His Church for 2000 years is a problem that I'd rather not face.
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I believe you are Catholic, correct? If so I can understand how the thought is terrifying in a way. In another way though, it means all the evil popes that have forced their religion on people and murdered so many people, the protestant and catholic wars, all the preachers and televangelists that give such an ugly face to people of faith, are all not real authorized servants of God. Which is a good thing.
 
ecofarm said:
According to JWs and Adventists, he did not abandon his church. Where do you get that idea?
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Then what was He doing during that "evil" period between the early Church and the starting of their respective churches?
 
laska said:
I believe you are Catholic, correct? If so I can understand how the thought is terrifying in a way. In another way though, it means all the evil popes that have forced their religion on people and murdered so many people, the protestant and catholic wars, all the preachers and televangelists that give such an ugly face to people of faith, are all not real authorized servants of God. Which is a good thing.
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We can go over specific cases or we can speak in broad generalities. Your choice.
 
phattonez said:
We can go over specific cases or we can speak in broad generalities. Your choice.
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My choice is just give my interpretation of the verses, and leave it at that. I'm not wanting to spend a bunch of time in a fruitless debate on whose Biblical interpretation is correct.
 
laska said:
My choice is just give my interpretation of the verses, and leave it at that. I'm not wanting to spend a bunch of time in a fruitless debate on whose Biblical interpretation is correct.
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And your interpretation of the verse where Jesus says that He will be with the Church until the end of time apparently includes a big "except for 2,000 years" clause.
 
phattonez said:
And your interpretation of the verse where Jesus says that He will be with the Church until the end of time apparently includes a big "except for 2,000 years" clause.
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The translation from Greek on that verse is that Jesus will be with the church until the end of the "aion", which means eon, epoch, age, or period. In the LDS view that is what happened, Jesus was with those who remained faithful in the church until the end of that dispensation, which was followed by the long Apostasy.


Mathew 24:
3 ¶And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Paul declared, “Be not soon shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, not by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by many means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first.” (2 Thessalonians 2:2-3).

In the above verse when it states "falling away" it is translation from the Greek word "apostasia". These verses are telling the early Christians not to be fooled by false Christian teachers that would be looking for the Second Coming of Christ soon as there would be an apostasy before Christ's return.




Acts 20:
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.


Mathew 24:

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets...


Amos 8:
11 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
 
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laska said:
The translation from Greek on that verse is that Jesus will be with the church until the end of the "aion", which means eon, epoch, age, or period. In the LDS view that is what happened, Jesus was with those who remained faithful in the church until the end of that dispensation, which was followed by the long Apostasy.
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In other words, God abandoned His people for 2000 years. And remember what Jesus said: I am with you ALWAYS, until the close of the age. The interpretation of this as the end of the world makes much more sense.

Mathew 24:
3 ¶And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Paul declared, “Be not soon shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, not by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by many means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first.” (2 Thessalonians 2:2-3).

In the above verse when it states "falling away" it is translation from the Greek word "apostasia". These verses are telling the early Christians not to be fooled by false Christian teachers that would be looking for the Second Coming of Christ soon as there would be an apostasy before Christ's return.
Click to expand...

And there have been been false prophets, but this is not the same as the lack of a Church for 2000 years.


Acts 20:
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.


Mathew 24:

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets...
Click to expand...


Again, 2000 years with NO Church. That's not the same at all.

Amos 8:
11 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
Click to expand...

This text refers to ancient Israel, when the Jews abandoned God and His covenant. What the Mormon Church teaches regarding the Mosaic covenant is in total disagreement with the words of Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 31 - "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord."
 
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