• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Malachi 1:11

God's message to Israel is revealing.


The Day of the Lord
21
“I hate, I despise your religious festivals;
your assemblies are a stench to me.

22
Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
I will have no regard for them.

23
Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps.

24
But let justice roll on like a river,
righteousness like a never-failing stream!


25
“Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings
forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel?

26
You have lifted up the shrine of your king,
the pedestal of your idols,
the star of your god—
which you made for yourselves.

27
Therefore I will send you into exile beyond Damascus,”
says the Lord, whose name is God Almighty.
 
phattonez said:
Not unless somehow we can consider our sinful selves as a "pure offering."
Click to expand...

God accepted the widow's offering. Sinful that she is......God was pleased with it.
 
phattonez said:
There is no other offering besides Christ. The pure offering offered in every place to the Lord by the Gentiles is Christ. It is the Mass.
Click to expand...

Don't be consumed by the rituals and traditions, or you end up placing more importance on the rituals and traditions than God. It's not about any particular place....or the rituals!

Our bodies are the temple of God! We come together for fellowship....but we can also do worship and make offerings in our own individual ways.


John 4

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”
 
phattonez said:
Isaiah 53 is talking about our faith and not Jesus?
Click to expand...

No, Isaiah 53 is not talking about either. It is talking about the suffering servant of God, identified earlier as Israel.
 
RAMOSS said:
No, Isaiah 53 is not talking about either. It is talking about the suffering servant of God, identified earlier as Israel.
Click to expand...

No. Isaiah 53 cannot be about Israel.

Isaiah 53 talks about the innocent lamb (the suffering servant is a guiltless sufferer) - Israel is definitely not the innocent and sinless lamb that bore and died for the iniquities of others.

The very same prophet speaks of Israel:


Isaiah 1
A Rebellious Nation
2
Hear me, you heavens! Listen, earth!
For the Lord has spoken:
“I reared children and brought them up,
but they have rebelled against me.

3
The ox knows its master,
the donkey its owner’s manger,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”

4
Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the Lord;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.

5
Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.

6
From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness—
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with olive oil.

7
Your country is desolate,
your cities burned with fire;
your fields are being stripped by foreigners
right before you,
laid waste as when overthrown by strangers.

8
Daughter Zion is left
like a shelter in a vineyard,
like a hut in a cucumber field,
like a city under siege.

9
Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us some survivors,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.


10
Hear the word of the Lord,
you rulers of Sodom;
listen to the instruction of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!

11
“The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?” says the Lord.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

12
When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?

13
Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.

14
Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.

15
When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.

Your hands are full of blood!

16
Wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
stop doing wrong.

17
Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow.


18
“Come now, let us settle the matter,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

19
If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the good things of the land;

20
but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.


21
See how the faithful city
has become a prostitute!
She once was full of justice;
righteousness used to dwell in her—
but now murderers!

22
Your silver has become dross,
your choice wine is diluted with water.

23
Your rulers are rebels,
partners with thieves;
they all love bribes
and chase after gifts.
They do not defend the cause of the fatherless;
the widow’s case does not come before them.


24
Therefore the Lord, the Lord Almighty,
the Mighty One of Israel, declares:
“Ah! I will vent my wrath on my foes
and avenge myself on my enemies.

25
I will turn my hand against you;
I will thoroughly purge away your dross
and remove all your impurities.

26
I will restore your leaders as in days of old,
your rulers as at the beginning.
Afterward you will be called
the City of Righteousness,
the Faithful City.”


27
Zion will be delivered with justice,
her penitent ones with righteousness.

28
But rebels and sinners will both be broken,
and those who forsake the Lord will perish.

29
“You will be ashamed because of the sacred oaks
in which you have delighted;
you will be disgraced because of the gardens
that you have chosen.

30
You will be like an oak with fading leaves,
like a garden without water.

31
The mighty man will become tinder
and his work a spark;
both will burn together,
with no one to quench the fire.”
 
Last edited:
RAMOSS said:
No, Isaiah 53 is not talking about either. It is talking about the suffering servant of God, identified earlier as Israel.
Click to expand...


Furthermore,

Of whom does Isaiah speak? He speaks of the Messiah, as many ancient rabbis concluded. The second verse of Isaiah 53 makes it crystal clear. The figure grows up as "a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground." The shoot springing up is beyond reasonable doubt a reference to the Messiah, and, in fact, it is a common Messianic reference in Isaiah and elsewhere. The Davidic dynasty was to be cut down in judgement like a felled tree, but it was promised to Israel that a new sprout would shoot up from the stump. The Messiah was to be that sprout. Several Hebrew words were used to refer to this undeniably Messianic image. All the terms are related in meaning and connected in the Messianic texts where they were used. Isaiah 11, which virtually all rabbis agreed refers to the Messiah, used the words "shoot" (hoter) and branch (netser) to describe the Messianic King.

Isaiah 11:10 called Messiah the "Root (shoresh) of Jesse," Jesse being David's father.

Isaiah 53 described the suffering servant as a root (shoresh) from dry ground, using the very same metaphor and the very same word as Isaiah 11.

We also see other terms used for the same concept, such as branch (tsemach) in Jeremiah 23:5, in Isaiah 4:2 and also in the startling prophecies of Zechariah 3:8 and 6:12.

Why Israel Cannot be the Suffering Servant in Isaiah 53
 
And do you have a point?? Two different authors talking about different things use different imagery.

Not only that.. but did you know that the later part of Isaiah is not written by Isaiah, but someone probably 100 years later??
 
RAMOSS said:
And do you have a point??
Click to expand...

Yes. My point is that contrary to your claim, the suffering servant from Isaiah 53 couldn't have been Israel!

As explained and shown.
 
tosca1 said:
Yes. My point is that contrary to your claim, the suffering servant from Isaiah 53 couldn't have been Israel!

As explained and shown.
Click to expand...

On the contrary, you did no such thing. You totally ignore the entire context of the 4th servant song, and plug a random passage from someplace else that has nothing to do with what the author of the 4th servant song was saying.

It is one massive fail.
 
RAMOSS said:
On the contrary, you did no such thing. You totally ignore the entire context of the 4th servant song, and plug a random passage from someplace else that has nothing to do with what the author of the 4th servant song was saying.

It is one massive fail.
Click to expand...

What 4th servant song are you talking about?

Anyway, you're simply making a statement without giving any explanations at all. Why don't you explain what you mean?
 
I am surprised that , since you think you are such an expert about the bible , that you don't know what the 'servant songs' are. The servant songs are 4 songs in Isaiah that discuss the servant of God. The forth of these poems starts in Isaiah 52, and continues into Isaiah 53.

This pdf file explains about it in detail

http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Isa53JP.pdf
 
ecofarm said:
I'm inclined to believe Is 53 is referring to the Christ, but faith in and of itself is a pure offering.
Click to expand...

You have faith, you don't give it, so how is it you are offering it?

It is a gift to you, not an offering to Him.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;

Romans 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
 
Last edited:
ChezC3 said:
You have faith, you don't give it, so how is it you are offering it?

It is a gift to you, not an offering to Him.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;
Click to expand...

Sovereignty is given, faith is the vehicle.
 
ChezC3 said:
Define sovereignty for me please.
Click to expand...

Seriously?

Anyway, grace is given by God, not faith. If faith was given, no one would be responsible for their damnation. We choose to have faith, God gave free will for exactly that purpose. Lucifer took sovereignty himself, causing the heavenly conflict. Adam did the same when he ate from the tree of knowledge (to know right from wrong). We are, through faith, to give God the sovereignty He is rightfully due. Settling the question of sovereignty being His is the reason He created man in the first place.

If God gave faith, how could he favor Abraham for having it.
 
Last edited:
ecofarm said:
Seriously?

Anyway, grace is given by God, not faith. If faith was given, no one would be responsible for their damnation. We choose to have faith, God gave free will for exactly that purpose. Lucifer took sovereignty himself, causing the heavenly conflict. Adam did the same when he ate from the tree of knowledge (to know right from wrong). We are, through faith, to give God the sovereignty He is rightfully due. Settling the question of sovereignty being His is the reason He created man in the first place.

If God gave faith, how could he favor Abraham for having it.
Click to expand...

Yes, seriously, as is usual in these types of discussions different people use words in different ways and the way one person defines a word might not always be the case for the other. To avoid confusion and animosity I find it better to seek clarification rather than just diving in head first.

By grace, God's grace does he give us faith. Certainly they would be responsible and are. You can reject a gift. We have to choose to accept it. It wasn't by lack of faith or his not offering it that Lucifer caused heavenly conflict. Neither was it Adam's.

Obedience.

That is what you give as an offering.

Disobedience was Lucifer's and Adam's crime and it is what brought Abraham God's favor.
 
ChezC3 said:
Yes, seriously, as is usual in these types of discussions different people use words in different ways and the way one person defines a word might not always be the case for the other. To avoid confusion and animosity I find it better to seek clarification rather than just diving in head first.

By grace, God's grace does he give us faith. Certainly they would be responsible and are. You can reject a gift. We have to choose to accept it. It wasn't by lack of faith or his not offering it that Lucifer caused heavenly conflict. Neither was it Adam's.

Obedience.

That is what you give as an offering.

Disobedience was Lucifer's and Adam's crime and it is what brought Abraham God's favor.
Click to expand...

Sovereignty, put simply in the case of the Bible, is determining right and wrong. Disobedience is taking sovereignty for oneself, as specified when Adam ate from the tree of knowledge (to know right from wrong). We are not to decide that for ourselves, we are to believe right and wrong according to God.

Through faith we are obedient, and thereby grant God the sovereignty that Lucifer and Adam took for themselves. In doing so, Adam was made mortal. Only through returning God's sovereignty can we re-attain immortality.

God created man and gave us free will to determine, once and for all, that sovereignty is God's. To settle the issue of Lucifer's rebellion (aka the heavenly conflict).

As God does not force anyone to be faithful, the sovereignty granted therein is given (offered) to God. The offering of sovereignty to God is what was represented by animal sacrifices and other physical offerings in ceremony. As Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law, physical offerings are no longer (in fact, never truly were) required.



The point of the whole thing is not merely to be obedient, as obedience is something that can be forced. The point is to, in free will, offer God the sovereignty that is rightfully His.
 
Last edited:
ecofarm said:
Sovereignty, put simply in the case of the Bible, is determining right and wrong. Disobedience is taking sovereignty for oneself, as specified when Adam ate from the tree of knowledge (to know right from wrong). We are not to decide that for ourselves, we are to believe right and wrong according to God.

Through faith we are obedient, and thereby grant God the sovereignty that Lucifer and Adam took for themselves. In doing so, Adam was made mortal. Only through returning that sovereignty can we re-attain immortality.

As God does not force anyone to be faithful, the sovereignty granted therein is given (offered) to God. The offering of sovereignty to God is what was represented by animal sacrifices and other physical offerings in ceremony. As Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law, physical offerings are no longer (in fact, never truly were) required.
Click to expand...

This is quite interesting, I want to agree with this but there is something off, it's just not right...and I'm trying to determine whether it's semantics or substance...

Let me think on this, but thank you for clarifying your position up a bit..
 
The important distinction is that obedience can be forced and offering sovereignty cannot.
 
ChezC3 said:
This is quite interesting, I want to agree with this but there is something off, it's just not right...and I'm trying to determine whether it's semantics or substance...

Let me think on this, but thank you for clarifying your position up a bit..
Click to expand...

See my addition to the post you last quoted and the post after. I believe it clarifies the important distinction between obedience (which can be forced) and offering sovereignty (which cannot be forced).


I would not be surprised if something is off, these things are not easily discerned, as evidenced by my calling faith the offering when it's actually merely the vehicle with which to make the offering of sovereignty.
 
RAMOSS said:
I am surprised that , since you think you are such an expert about the bible , that you don't know what the 'servant songs' are. The servant songs are 4 songs in Isaiah that discuss the servant of God. The forth of these poems starts in Isaiah 52, and continues into Isaiah 53.

This pdf file explains about it in detail

http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Isa53JP.pdf
Click to expand...

FYI, I don't consider myself a bible expert.



Though the Servant Song may refer to the celebration of Israel and indeed God had referred to Israel as His servant, however the song of Isaiah 53 also speaks of the Messiah as the suffering servant.

Just read Isaiah 53:9.

He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth

The suffering servant - the lamb - had done no violence. But Israel had done violence.
Isaiah 1 says, Your hands are full of blood.

Even King David was not allowed to build God's temple because he had killed so many.

Israel is God's servant. She is His chosen people. But the Songs are not all about Israel.


Whatever analogies said about the oppression of Israel to the oppression of God's suffering servant, the analogy stopped there.

There's a contradiction between the descriptions (if we try to apply the suffering servant to Israel).
Clearly, the song had taken a turn to give prophecy of the Messiah.


You can't simply focus on the servant songs and exclude the later writings in Isaiah. You said:

RAMOSS said:
And do you have a point?? Two different authors talking about different things use different imagery.

Not only that.. but did you know that the later part of Isaiah is not written by Isaiah, but someone probably 100 years later??
Click to expand...

Which "later part" do you mean? That's sooooo weak.
Anyway, I didn't give the later part of Isaiah. I gave ISAIAH 1.


And Isaiah 59 confirms the same.


1
Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.

2
But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.

3
For your hands are stained with blood,
your fingers with guilt.
Your lips have spoken falsely,
and your tongue mutters wicked things.

4
No one calls for justice;
no one pleads a case with integrity.
They rely on empty arguments, they utter lies;
they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.

5
They hatch the eggs of vipers
and spin a spider’s web.
Whoever eats their eggs will die,
and when one is broken, an adder is hatched.

6
Their cobwebs are useless for clothing;
they cannot cover themselves with what they make.
Their deeds are evil deeds,
and acts of violence are in their hands.

7
Their feet rush into sin;
they are swift to shed innocent blood.
They pursue evil schemes;
acts of violence mark their ways.

8
The way of peace they do not know;
there is no justice in their paths.
They have turned them into crooked roads;
no one who walks along them will know peace.



9
So justice is far from us,
and righteousness does not reach us.
We look for light, but all is darkness;
for brightness, but we walk in deep shadows.

10
Like the blind we grope along the wall,
feeling our way like people without eyes.
At midday we stumble as if it were twilight;
among the strong, we are like the dead.

11
We all growl like bears;
we moan mournfully like doves.
We look for justice, but find none;
for deliverance, but it is far away.



12
For our offenses are many in your sight,
and our sins testify against us.
Our offenses are ever with us,
and we acknowledge our iniquities:

13
rebellion and treachery against the Lord,
turning our backs on our God,
inciting revolt and oppression,
uttering lies our hearts have conceived.

14
So justice is driven back,
and righteousness stands at a distance;
truth has stumbled in the streets,
honesty cannot enter.

15
Truth is nowhere to be found,
and whoever shuns evil becomes a prey.



The same description of Israel!
And guess what, like Isaiah 53, Isaiah 59 also takes on a similar prophetic turn about the oppression of Israel and the coming Redeemer.



The Lord looked and was displeased
that there was no justice.

16
He saw that there was no one,
he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;
so his own arm achieved salvation for him,
and his own righteousness sustained him.

17
He put on righteousness as his breastplate,
and the helmet of salvation on his head;
he put on the garments of vengeance
and wrapped himself in zeal as in a cloak.

18
According to what they have done,
so will he repay
wrath to his enemies
and retribution to his foes;
he will repay the islands their due.

19
From the west, people will fear the name of the Lord,
and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.
For he will come like a pent-up flood
that the breath of the Lord drives along.[a]



20
“The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
declares the Lord.

21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.


The sufferings of Israel is different.

Israel suffers for her repeated disobedience and hard-headedness, and her sufferings are the judgements of God.
 
Last edited:
tosca1 said:
FYI, I don't consider myself a bible expert.
Click to expand...

First of all, there are a number of translations issues with the Christian translation. Here is a link to an anaylsis of 'Christan translation and interpretation vs Jewish translation and interpretion' of the lines you are taking about. I don't know if you can read power point, so let me cut/paste from parts.
Here is the link to the original power point presentation http://thejewishhome.org/counter/ppt/Isaiah53CP_04.ppt

Here is the same article retrieved from the archive.org from when it was an html file. It also goes from 52.9
https://web.archive.org/web/20031125214428/http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53d.html


What your source is doing is using mistranslations, and looking it through Jesus colored glasses.


It is also making a claim of 'duel prophecy', which makes absolutely no sense, what so ever. It is an attempt to retrofit one withing to make with another prophecy to make Christians feel better about themselves.
 
RAMOSS said:
First of all, there are a number of translations issues with the Christian translation. Here is a link to an anaylsis of 'Christan translation and interpretation vs Jewish translation and interpretion' of the lines you are taking about. I don't know if you can read power point, so let me cut/paste from parts.
Here is the link to the original power point presentation http://thejewishhome.org/counter/ppt/Isaiah53CP_04.ppt

Here is the same article retrieved from the archive.org from when it was an html file. It also goes from 52.9
https://web.archive.org/web/20031125214428/http://www.messiahtruth.com/isaiah53d.html


What your source is doing is using mistranslations, and looking it through Jesus colored glasses.


It is also making a claim of 'duel prophecy', which makes absolutely no sense, what so ever. It is an attempt to retrofit one withing to make with another prophecy to make Christians feel better about themselves.
Click to expand...

Having Israel as the Suffering Servant does not make any sense at all. On top of the issue of violence (which the Suffering Servant had never done), there are other clear indications that Israel is not that Suffering Servant.

Isa 53:7
“He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.”

Several times, Israel did not willingly give himself up to become a slave. Israel was defeated by his enemies (as punishment by God).

Several times, Israel opened his mouth and cried out to the Lord asking to be delivered!
Again, clearly, Israel does not fit the description. This is like Cinderella - many vying to try on the glass slipper. :lol:

Did Jesus ever asked God to deliver Him from torture and crucifixion?


Had Israel actually died? Become extinct? No.


Isaiah 53:9
“His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.”


Israel does not have knowledge. Israel is a blinded servant, according to (Isaiah 5:13, Isaiah 6:9-10, Isaiah 9:2 KJV, Isaiah 29:13-14, Isaiah 42:18-20,)


Isaiah 53:11
From the toil of his soul he shall see [and he shall] be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant will vindicate the righteous before the multitudes, and their iniquities he shall carry.

That HE clearly refers to the Messiah!



The Messiah is the perfect candidate as the subject of Isaiah 53:11 because Isaiah 11:1-2 indicates that He will have the spirit of wisdom, the spirit of understanding, and the spirit of knowledge. Furthermore, Isaiah 50:4 teaches that He will have the tongue of the learned.

Though Israel is already disqualified as the subject of Isaiah's fourth Servant Song, there will come a day when they as well as the entire world will be full of the knowledge of the LORD. However, this will not occur until the Messiah, the root of Jesse, establishes His kingdom:

•Isaiah 11:9-10 "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. (10) And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."


Isaiah 53 - Not About Israel


So many chapters from Isaiah speak consistently about the Messiah (which are also supported by other Books from other Prophets) - thus it will really be inconsistent with the rest of the book for Chapter 53 to suddenly refer to Israel as the Suffering Servant.
 
Last edited:
tosca1 said:
Having Israel as the Suffering Servant does not make any sense at all. On top of the issue of violence (which the Suffering Servant had never done), there are other clear indications that Israel is not that Suffering Servant.

Isa 53:7
“He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.”

Several times, Israel did not willingly give himself up to become a slave. Israel was defeated by his enemies (as punishment by God).

Several times, Israel opened his mouth and cried out to the Lord asking to be delivered!
Again, clearly, Israel does not fit the description. This is like Cinderella - many vying to try on the glass slipper. :lol:

Did Jesus ever asked God to deliver Him from torture and crucifixion?


Had Israel actually died? Become extinct? No.


Isaiah 53:9
“His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.”


Israel does not have knowledge. Israel is a blinded servant, according to (Isaiah 5:13, Isaiah 6:9-10, Isaiah 9:2 KJV, Isaiah 29:13-14, Isaiah 42:18-20,)


Isaiah 53:11
From the toil of his soul he shall see [and he shall] be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant will vindicate the righteous before the multitudes, and their iniquities he shall carry.

That HE clearly refers to the Messiah!



The Messiah is the perfect candidate as the subject of Isaiah 53:11 because Isaiah 11:1-2 indicates that He will have the spirit of wisdom, the spirit of understanding, and the spirit of knowledge. Furthermore, Isaiah 50:4 teaches that He will have the tongue of the learned.

Though Israel is already disqualified as the subject of Isaiah's fourth Servant Song, there will come a day when they as well as the entire world will be full of the knowledge of the LORD. However, this will not occur until the Messiah, the root of Jesse, establishes His kingdom:

•Isaiah 11:9-10 "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. (10) And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."


Isaiah 53 - Not About Israel


So many chapters from Isaiah speak consistently about the Messiah (which are also supported by other Books from other Prophets) - thus it will really be inconsistent with the rest of the book for Chapter 53 to suddenly refer to Israel as the Suffering Servant.
Click to expand...


Funny thing, you repeated yourself, didn't address one point, and brought up one with all the mistranslations intact.

And no, so many chapters of Isaiah talk about the nation of Israel, or a sign to King Ahaz, or a reference to Hezekiah. Christian missionaries love to misrepresent things, but educated people who those are misrepresentations.. often times purposeful misrepresentations.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom