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Malachi 1:11

laska said:
Nice missing all my points. Why do you think John the Baptist baptized people and not just anyone? He had the Aaronic priesthood so he had the authority to baptize. The Jewish religious leaders understood the need for authority, that is why they asked John by what authority he was doing this ordinance.
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I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. Does the LDS now lay claim to the Hebrew priesthood?
 
it's just me said:
I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. Does the LDS now lay claim to the Hebrew priesthood?
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Yes. Both the Aaronic and Melchizadech priesthood was restored to Joseph and his scribe Oliver by angelic visitations of John the Baptist(Aaronic) and Peter, James, and John(Melchizadech). The last people on the earth to hold these keys. This is part of the restoration of Christ's NT church. These keys are held today by the living prophet/first presidency, and the quorum of the 12 apostles.
 
laska said:
Yes. Both the Aaronic and Melchizadech priesthood was restored to Joseph and his scribe Oliver by angelic visitations of John the Baptist(Aaronic) and Peter, James, and John(Melchizadech). The last people on the earth to hold these keys. This is part of the restoration of Christ's NT church. These keys are held today by the living prophet/first presidency, and the quorum of the 12 apostles.
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The NT church didn't need to be "restored", it never went away. It's had it's ups and downs but it is still with us. The Hebrews had their ups and downs, too.

The Church Catholic (which includes Protestant denominations as well) has the authority of Christ and the Apostles. If you and the Jehovah's Witnesses want to be Jews, then be Jews. Stop trying to be Christians because you have neither the authority nor the history for it, I don't care how many dreams your Joseph Smith had.
 
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laska said:
There is no innocent blood on the hands of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. No undermining of free agency, nothing similar to selling of indulgences. The only thing the Church as a whole has done is try and share the blessings of the gospel to the world in a very dignified way, and go about doing good such as welfare program, humanitarian aid, etc. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, as an organization, not speaking individually, has nothing to be ashamed of, and has an awe inspiring track record. The Lord went about doing good, and His church does the same even with very imperfect people as members. There is a lot of misunderstanding of a few past LDS policies, and a lot of dishonest slandering and re-writing of history from the enemies of the LDS. If you come from that perspective then you see the Church way out of context than reality.
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And you apparently have a completely biased and incorrect view of the effect that the Catholic Church has had on the world.

Thomas Woods wrote an entire book on the subject, which you can read about in his article:
How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas E. Woods, Jr.

Thomas E. Woods said:
From the role of the monks (they did much more than just copy manuscripts) to art and architecture, from the university to Western law, from science to charitable work, from international law to economics, the book delves into just how indebted we are as a civilization to the Catholic Church, whether we realize it or not.
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In regards to Judas, he never led the Church, and he was quickly replaced when he broke bad.
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The apostles weren't leaders of the Church?

Joseph Smith taught to always follow the prophet and the majority of the apostles. That the Lord would never allow the majority to go bad and lead astray. If by small chance a few apostacize, they are quickly excommunicated and replaced because God is guiding His church by revelation. There will never be an evil prophet guiding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and do what past popes have done. God would quickly replace any such man. The same thing can be said about local leadership such as bishops and stake presidents. The few that apostacize while holding callings are quickly excommunicated because revelation is guiding the Church and the the Holy Ghost will prompt leadership to make a change. These bishops and stake presidents are called, receive no monetary compensation, hold regular day jobs, and pay ten percent of their income to the church. All of this is why The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has a tiny, tiny fraction of the problems the Catholic church has had and certainly nothing comparable to the great sins of the Catholic church. Not trying to bash, and the Catholic church has also done a lot of good, but that is because it is solely a human church, the good, bad, and ugly. It does not have apostolic authority from Peter, and so has no real authority and does not have revelation guiding it.
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Utterly laughable. You state this unequivocally, but provide no evidence.
 
it's just me said:
The NT church didn't need to be "restored", it never went away. It's had it's ups and downs but it is still with us. The Hebrews had their ups and downs, too.

The Church Catholic (which includes Protestant denominations as well) has the authority of Christ and the Apostles. If you and the Jehovah's Witnesses want to be Jews, then be Jews. Stop trying to be Christians because you have neither the authority nor the history for it, I don't care how many dreams your Joseph Smith had.
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I agree with the thought overall, but Protestants don't have the authority of the apostles. They created an entirely new priesthood and line of succession, or eliminated it entirely.
 
phattonez said:
And you apparently have a completely biased and incorrect view of the effect that the Catholic Church has had on the world.

Thomas Woods wrote an entire book on the subject, which you can read about in his article:
How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas E. Woods, Jr.





The apostles weren't leaders of the Church?



Utterly laughable. You state this unequivocally, but provide no evidence.
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The evidence is the track record of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for 185 yrs. If it had done the things of the Catholic church I would be saying the same about it.
 
laska said:
The evidence is the track record of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for 185 yrs. If it had done the things of the Catholic church I would be saying the same about it.
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I'm still waiting for the part where the Catholic Church lost its authority and apostolic succession.

You have to point to an event whereby we know that the priesthood and line of succession was broken. With the Jews it is easy: the destruction of the Temple. You cannot say the same about the priesthood of the Catholic Church.
 
A verse I should have quoted to "it's just me" in regards to authority:

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.- Jeremiah:1:5

Additional LDS scriptures in the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham explain that all of us existed as spirit sons or daughters of God before we were born on the earth and some used their free agency to develop great faith and works of righteousness, and God chose His leaders from these who He called "Great and noble ones". There they were ordained and set apart for their special missions on the earth. When Jesus and John the Baptist came onto the scene, the nation of Israel had been in apostasy for centuries because of a knack for killing the true prophets, and the religious sects who dominated the scene, none who had real authority were shocked that someone was speaking like they had real authority:

Mathew 7: 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
 
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phattonez said:
I'm still waiting for the part where the Catholic Church lost its authority and apostolic succession.

You have to point to an event whereby we know that the priesthood and line of succession was broken. With the Jews it is easy: the destruction of the Temple. You cannot say the same about the priesthood of the Catholic Church.
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:doh

Someone is not comprehending my posts and links.
 
laska said:
:doh

Someone is not comprehending my posts and links.
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You're failing to prove that the Catholic Church ever lost its priesthood and apostolic succession. If the Church still has it, then she still holds the authority. So where did the Catholic Church lose these things?
 
phattonez said:
You're failing to prove that the Catholic Church ever lost its priesthood and apostolic succession. If the Church still has it, then she still holds the authority. So where did the Catholic Church lose these things?
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Why I hate debating you. You've missed it completely.
 
laska said:
A verse I should have quoted to "it's just me" in regards to authority:

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.- Jeremiah:1:5

Additional LDS scriptures in the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham explain that all of us existed as spirit sons or daughters of God before we were born on the earth and some used their free agency to develop great faith and works of righteousness, and God chose His leaders from these who He called "Great and noble ones". There they were ordained and set apart for their special missions on the earth. When Jesus and John the Baptist came onto the scene, the nation of Israel had been in apostasy for centuries because of a knack for killing the true prophets, and the religious sects who dominated the scene, none who had real authority were shocked that someone was speaking like they had real authority:

Mathew 7: 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
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Actually not true. Even Jesus said thus (Matthew 23):
The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not.

They still held authority up until the destruction of the Temple. Jesus said observe and do as they say, because they still had authority. Not until the destruction of the Temple did they lose that authority.
 
laska said:
Try re-rereading.
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This does not answer the question, laska. Tell me why I should think that the Catholic Church has lost authority. Even after Israel killed all of its prophets and worshipped false gods, they still had authority until the destruction of the Temple, a very clear and obvious sign of the loss of the authority. What is the event that I can point to that tells me that the Catholic Church has lost her authority?
 
If you are wise enough to take the time to understand the LDS case for the total apostasy of Christ's NT church and the need for a Restoration, and then read the Book of Mormon and pray to God whether the book and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true, there is a promise at the end of the Book of Mormon:

"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.-"-Moroni 10:4



"And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, ... and they teach all men that they should do good."
2 Nephi 33:10


I'm going to try and make this my last post here and likely will not read any responses. I am satisfied with my postings and hopefully they will be a benefit to someone searching for the truth. Anyone can contact me through messages if they want to further discuss anything here. LDS.org is a great place to learn about the Church.
 
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laska said:
If you are wise enough to take the time to understand the LDS case for the total apostasy of Christ's NT church and the need for a Restoration, and then read the Book of Mormon and pray to God whether the book and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true, there is a promise at the end of the Book of Mormon:

"And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.-"-Moroni 10:4



"And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, ... and they teach all men that they should do good."
2 Nephi 33:10


I'm going to try and make this my last post here and likely will not read any responses. I am satisfied with my postings and hopefully they will be a benefit to someone searching for the truth. Anyone can contact me through messages if they want to further discuss anything here. LDS.org is a great place to learn about the Church.
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So you have nothing to point to that even casts doubt into the idea that the Catholic Church has somehow lost her authority. You can't point to an event, and you don't have a real response to the words of Jesus Christ to the apostles: "behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."

The Mormon church teaches that Christ is a liar and that God so hates the world that He would leave it for about 2000 years in apostasy.
 
phattonez said:
I agree with the thought overall, but Protestants don't have the authority of the apostles. They created an entirely new priesthood and line of succession, or eliminated it entirely.
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I didn't mean it that way exactly, no, the Protestant churches as a group do not have the fullness of the faith but they still speak the truth when they preach the Gospel.
 
it's just me said:
I didn't mean it that way exactly, no, the Protestant churches as a group do not have the fullness of the faith but they still speak the truth when they preach the Gospel.
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Snippets of truth, yes, but not the fullness of truth, else they would not have broken away from the Church.

The church of the living God [is] the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
 
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