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I just ordered this book

it's just me said:
When has this ever happened in a Church Council?
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Obviously it did according to some People, since not all Churches Accept all Councils.

That isn't the point though, just answer the question.
 
RGacky3 said:
Obviously it did according to some People, since not all Churches Accept all Councils.

That isn't the point though, just answer the question.
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The moon is made out of green cheese according to some people, too, but that doesn't make it a fact. You are wasting both of our time with this. Unless you have a specific question, I am done with it, oh thou of little faith.
 
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RGacky3 said:
The Councils didn't decide, God did.
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So those councils were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but not the others like Trent and Ephesus?
 
RGacky3 said:
There's no such thing as solo scirptura, there is sola scriptura, and that's what I am.
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And you accept the books in the Bible as scripture which were decided by a council. So you're picking and choosing which councils you accept arbitrarily.
 
phattonez said:
And you accept the books in the Bible as scripture which were decided by a council. So you're picking and choosing which councils you accept arbitrarily.
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You would think that eventually they would make the connection. I am convinced that they people who believe this stuff have no use for the Church and are trying to wrest authority away from it for themselves.
 
it's just me said:
You would think that eventually they would make the connection. I am convinced that they people who believe this stuff have no use for the Church and are trying to wrest authority away from it for themselves.
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I think that as with most intellectual endeavors today (or at least nominally called intellectual), emotion clouds right judgement. Sadly, most religion today is sappy emotionalism rather than a discovery of the truth. Faith is not and cannot be based on emotions. Such an endeavor is fleeting and ultimately disappointing. Emotional highs are not true happiness.
 
it's just me said:
The moon is made out of green cheese according to some people, too, but that doesn't make it a fact. You are wasting both of our time with this. Unless you have a specific question, I am done with it, oh thou of little faith.
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No there were HUGE splits, The catholic Church Accepts some Councils, the Eastern Orthodox Church Accepts others, the Oriental Orthodox Church Accepts others, and protestants only Accept the first couple.

All 3 of the orthodox (Catholic, eastern, oriental) traditions have legitimate claim to go back to the apostles.

So You believe that some Church Councils taught unbiblical doctrine, others believe that Your Church did.

WHat is the final authority????

THE BIBLE.
 
phattonez said:
So those councils were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but not the others like Trent and Ephesus?
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I'm gonna copy and paste this argument any time a sola-scriptuira argument comes up and you say "how do we know which books are in the bible :)).

THat's my point, for me the bible is the final authority and all Councils are judged on the bible.

And you accept the books in the Bible as scripture which were decided by a council. So you're picking and choosing which councils you accept arbitrarily.
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No I'm not, I don't Accept the books based on the decision of a Council ... the books were recognized as being inspired well before the Councils, the Church fatherse recognized them, why? Because they were "God breathed" what made them inspired was not the Council, it was God.
 
RGacky3 said:
No there were HUGE splits, The catholic Church Accepts some Councils, the Eastern Orthodox Church Accepts others, the Oriental Orthodox Church Accepts others, and protestants only Accept the first couple.
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...and you don't accept any of them...

You have already told me you didn't accept the Nicene Council, which was the very first one, before the Bible even existed. You have this circular reasoning thing going that sounds an awful lot like "The Bible is the word of God because God said so". You need a better apology than that.
 
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it's just me said:
...and you don't accept any of them...

You have already told me you didn't accept the Nicene Council, which was the very first one, before the Bible even existed. You have this circular reasoning thing going that sounds an awful lot like "The Bible is the word of God because God said so". You need a better apology than that.
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Ok ... that isn't my issue.

That isn't my question.

Obviosly some of the Councils teach unbiblical Things, because you don't Accept all of them, you don't Accept the eastern or the oriental orthodox Councils.

So CLEARLY it's possible for a Council to teach unbiblical Things.

So how do you know which Council is true and which isn't?
 
RGacky3 said:
No there were HUGE splits, The catholic Church Accepts some Councils, the Eastern Orthodox Church Accepts others, the Oriental Orthodox Church Accepts others, and protestants only Accept the first couple.

All 3 of the orthodox (Catholic, eastern, oriental) traditions have legitimate claim to go back to the apostles.

So You believe that some Church Councils taught unbiblical doctrine, others believe that Your Church did.

WHat is the final authority????

THE BIBLE.
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Which Bible?

The Catholic bible, the Protestant bible, the eastern orthodox bible?? Remember, 'bible' means a collection of books, and the Catholics, Protestants and Ethiopian Orthodox all have a different list.
 
RAMOSS said:
Which Bible?

The Catholic bible, the Protestant bible, the eastern orthodox bible?? Remember, 'bible' means a collection of books, and the Catholics, Protestants and Ethiopian Orthodox all have a different list.
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Ok, The Jewish bible, + the New testament.

Now, why don't you answer my question about the Councils?
 
RGacky3 said:
I'm gonna copy and paste this argument any time a sola-scriptuira argument comes up and you say "how do we know which books are in the bible :)).

THat's my point, for me the bible is the final authority and all Councils are judged on the bible.
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Yet the councils precede the Bible, so your argument makes no sense.

No I'm not, I don't Accept the books based on the decision of a Council ... the books were recognized as being inspired well before the Councils, the Church fatherse recognized them, why? Because they were "God breathed" what made them inspired was not the Council, it was God.
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How do you know which are God breathed? If you and I disagree over the inspiration of the Gospel of Peter, then how do we decide? Is it inspired for me and not for you? How do we determine the objective truth?
 
phattonez said:
1. Yet the councils precede the Bible, so your argument makes no sense.

2. How do you know which are God breathed? If you and I disagree over the inspiration of the Gospel of Peter, then how do we decide? Is it inspired for me and not for you? How do we determine the objective truth?
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1. No ... they didn't, every book of the bible was inspired and written before the first Council.

2. The Councils didn't "decide" either, those books were already recognized as God breathed.
 
RGacky3 said:
1. No ... they didn't, every book of the bible was inspired and written before the first Council.

2. The Councils didn't "decide" either, those books were already recognized as God breathed.
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1. But the infallible declaration of inspiration was not made until those councils.

2. I'll repeat: How do you know which are God breathed? If you and I disagree over the inspiration of the Gospel of Peter, then how do we decide? Is it inspired for me and not for you? How do we determine the objective truth?
 
phattonez said:
1. But the infallible declaration of inspiration was not made until those councils.

2. I'll repeat: How do you know which are God breathed? If you and I disagree over the inspiration of the Gospel of Peter, then how do we decide? Is it inspired for me and not for you? How do we determine the objective truth?
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1. We don't know that, but their being inspired books was known way before the Council, since we know the Church fathers quoted them as inspired books.

2. God preserves his Word ... I mean you have Jewish authorities that compiled the Tanakh, I doubt you'd consider them inspired.

The point is anyone can og and claim something is inspired, but God preserves his Word, and we can recognized the Word of God in the Word itself. If you just say "it's determined by the Church" ... Which Church? Mean The oriental orthodox, the eastern orthodox and the catholic church's all have claim to the apostolic tradition.
 
RGacky3 said:
1. We don't know that, but their being inspired books was known way before the Council, since we know the Church fathers quoted them as inspired books.

2. God preserves his Word ... I mean you have Jewish authorities that compiled the Tanakh, I doubt you'd consider them inspired.

The point is anyone can og and claim something is inspired, but God preserves his Word, and we can recognized the Word of God in the Word itself. If you just say "it's determined by the Church" ... Which Church? Mean The oriental orthodox, the eastern orthodox and the catholic church's all have claim to the apostolic tradition.
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How do we deal with the deuterocanonical books? How do we decide objectively whether they should be included or not?
 
phattonez said:
How do we deal with the deuterocanonical books? How do we decide objectively whether they should be included or not?
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They arn't part of the Tanakh, the New testament didn't quote them, it seams reasonable that they arn't included, When the Jews were still Gods Chosen People, the Tanakh was created.

That being said I love the deuterocanonical books and I think that every CHristian should read them to understand the context of the New testament.
 
RGacky3 said:
They arn't part of the Tanakh, the New testament didn't quote them, it seams reasonable that they arn't included, When the Jews were still Gods Chosen People, the Tanakh was created.

That being said I love the deuterocanonical books and I think that every CHristian should read them to understand the context of the New testament.
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How do we decide that New Testament citation is the qualification for what should be included in the Old Testament?
 
phattonez said:
How do we decide that New Testament citation is the qualification for what should be included in the Old Testament?
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If Jesus and his apostles view certain OT books as god breathed then that's good enough for me.
 
RGacky3 said:
Ok, The Jewish bible, + the New testament.

Now, why don't you answer my question about the Councils?
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Your answer is still incomplete. WHICH new testament?? The one the Catholics use, the one the protestants use, or the one the Ethiopian Orthodox use?

The Catholics include books the Protestants and deleted, so they have 70 books, not 66. The Ethiopian Orthodox have about 80! A 'Wider' Canon,and a 'Narrower Canon'.

Now, when it comes to the 'final authority'.. you proclaimed it's the bible.. yet, the various councils choose what is included.

Me, I reject all those councils as authorities. of course I personally don't accept the 'New Testament' either. But, I am interested in seeing how you get out of the problem of 'what New Testament' is the authority.
 
RAMOSS said:
Your answer is still incomplete. WHICH new testament?? The one the Catholics use, the one the protestants use, or the one the Ethiopian Orthodox use?

The Catholics include books the Protestants and deleted, so they have 70 books, not 66. The Ethiopian Orthodox have about 80! A 'Wider' Canon,and a 'Narrower Canon'.

Now, when it comes to the 'final authority'.. you proclaimed it's the bible.. yet, the various councils choose what is included.

Me, I reject all those councils as authorities. of course I personally don't accept the 'New Testament' either. But, I am interested in seeing how you get out of the problem of 'what New Testament' is the authority.
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This is why all Protestant interpretations as the Bible as sole authority fall flat. Ultimately they need to go back to the authority of Church councils, which leads you to the Catholic Church.
 
RAMOSS said:
Your answer is still incomplete. WHICH new testament?? The one the Catholics use, the one the protestants use, or the one the Ethiopian Orthodox use?

The Catholics include books the Protestants and deleted, so they have 70 books, not 66. The Ethiopian Orthodox have about 80! A 'Wider' Canon,and a 'Narrower Canon'.

Now, when it comes to the 'final authority'.. you proclaimed it's the bible.. yet, the various councils choose what is included.

Me, I reject all those councils as authorities. of course I personally don't accept the 'New Testament' either. But, I am interested in seeing how you get out of the problem of 'what New Testament' is the authority.
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I'm talking about the NEW testmanet, of which the churches agree on.

And the old Jewish bible, i.e. the bible which would have been considered cannon by jews and thus Christians in the first cenutyr.
 
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