Justice

JP Cusick said:

Yes - that means in this lifetime that few find the truth while in the next lifetime everyone gets the message and then everyone gets saved.

But back to the idea of "Justice" as is the title of this thread.


Whether you or anyone views the "fire" as eternal damnation or eternal punishment or eternal destruction, then are you saying that you believe that the loving Father God are burning people?

Click to expand...

Nope John 3:16 says otherwise, but that doesn't mean that God won't punish sin and destroy it permanently.

In the older days they would burn people at the stake, so you believe that the loving Father God is burning people in a lake of fire?
Maybe the people burn up fast or it is a slow burning but people are still being toasted and that is what you claim as the work of the loving Father God?

Click to expand...

You forget that God is Just as well and will judge sin and will eradicat it permantly. Yes God is loving in the fact that he provided a way out of that situation and that he didn't have to.

Nope it is what i claim of a Just God who does not tolerant imperfection and who does not tolerate sin.

And yes I know the nonsense of blaming the ignorant people as we people get our self burned in the fire, so I am talking about the one who lights that fire.
For me then if the real God is burning any person then I would stand against any such evil God and I would defy the Godly monster - FYI.

Click to expand...

Is the judge responsible for sending you to the death chamber or are you responsible for killing someone?
Don't blame the judge for the punishment because you committed the crime.

You will follow the rest of the sinners with them as well. This is why i say what you are saying is dangerous.

Even Jesus said in matthew 13

49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

luke 13
26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.

both quoted by jesus so by denying this fact you think you know more than God and Christ.

ludin said:

i just posted the definition of the word there is not such meaning as you posted have a nice day. no where is the word poor mentioned in any of the definition.
have a nice day.

Click to expand...

Yet, it is often used in context with 'justice for the poor' link

It also carries the meaning of 'giving people their rights (deut 18) A sermon about how the word mishpat is used

RAMOSS said:

Yet, it is often used in context with 'justice for the poor' link

It also carries the meaning of 'giving people their rights (deut 18) A sermon about how the word mishpat is used

Click to expand...

I posted the definition of the word mishpat means justice period it doesn't mean justice for the poor. why do you people continue to post this false definition.
i posted the hebrew lexicon for mishpat POOR never appears anywhere in there.

the definition of the word is justice period. not justice for the poor. it is justice or judgement or one of the other 20 possibilities above.
justice for the POOR is not a definition of the word.

yea giving people it says nothing of poor it say PEOPLE. that means all people both rich and poor.

it isn't used in context for justice for the poor. it is used in the phrase since the word means justice but that is about it. you guys are heavily distorting definitions of words and taking them way out of context. mishpat means JUSTICE. not justice for the poor. it means justice for all.

kjw47 said:

No one said the lake of fire is literal fire--its symbolic for eternal destruction--we were all given the choice--Deuteronomy 30:19---- how many followers were shown this truth?--few.

Click to expand...

See my posting #41 of this thread.

Link to it here =

It is a symbolic "fire" just as it is a symbolic "destruction" too.

That reference to Deuteronomy has nothing to do with the Gospel message of salvation based on forgiveness, JUSTICE, mercy, love, and etc.

The real problem here is that you are trapped in a specific group with specific doctrines which means that you can not accept any independent truth that contradict your superiors - and that is a defect which I do not have.

ludin said:

I posted the definition of the word mishpat means justice period it doesn't mean justice for the poor. why do you people continue to post this false definition.
i posted the hebrew lexicon for mishpat POOR never appears anywhere in there.

the definition of the word is justice period. not justice for the poor. it is justice or judgement or one of the other 20 possibilities above.
justice for the POOR is not a definition of the word.

yea giving people it says nothing of poor it say PEOPLE. that means all people both rich and poor.

it isn't used in context for justice for the poor. it is used in the phrase since the word means justice but that is about it. you guys are heavily distorting definitions of words and taking them way out of context. mishpat means JUSTICE. not justice for the poor. it means justice for all.

Click to expand...

I find the arguments from various sources that are outside this forum, and in this forum much more convincing that your claims.

For those interested in the topic of God's divine justice as it applies to heaven, hell, and the afterlife, I highly recommend the book "Love Wins" by Rob Bell and the rebuttal by Francis Chan "Erasing Hell". For those who prefer a deeper theological approach to the topic, I'd recommend "Surprised by Hope" by N.T. Wright.

JP Cusick said:

See my posting #41 of this thread.

Link to it here =

It is a symbolic "fire" just as it is a symbolic "destruction" too.

That reference to Deuteronomy has nothing to do with the Gospel message of salvation based on forgiveness, JUSTICE, mercy, love, and etc.

The real problem here is that you are trapped in a specific group with specific doctrines which means that you can not accept any independent truth that contradict your superiors - and that is a defect which I do not have.

Click to expand...

You are correct, I am in a specific group with specific doctrine---the true teachings of Jesus from his only real teachers on earth.

RAMOSS said:

I find the arguments from various sources that are outside this forum, and in this forum much more convincing that your claims.

Click to expand...

Mishpat - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - New American Standard

hebrew lexicon which shows the definitions of words. mishpat the word we are discussing.

judgment, justice, ordinance
judgment
act of deciding a case
place, court, seat of judgment
process, procedure, litigation (before judges)
case, cause (presented for judgment)
sentence, decision (of judgment)
execution (of judgment)
time (of judgment)
justice, right, rectitude (attributes of God or man)
ordinance
decision (in law)
right, privilege, due (legal)
proper, fitting, measure, fitness, custom, manner, plan

show me where it says justice for the poor please. i don't see it listed there.

i don't see how you can argue with a hebrew lexicon but be my guest.

JP Cusick said:

See my posting #41 of this thread.

Link to it here =

It is a symbolic "fire" just as it is a symbolic "destruction" too.

That reference to Deuteronomy has nothing to do with the Gospel message of salvation based on forgiveness, JUSTICE, mercy, love, and etc.

The real problem here is that you are trapped in a specific group with specific doctrines which means that you can not accept any independent truth that contradict your superiors - and that is a defect which I do not have.

Click to expand...

your defect is that you are saying something that is unbiblical and ignore all evidence's including what Christ said on the matter. You think that you know more than God or Christ.
better yet you argue that God and Christ are wrong in what they say and that you are correct.

ludin said:

show me where it says justice for the poor please. i don't see it listed there.

i don't see how you can argue with a hebrew lexicon but be my guest.

Click to expand...

So do you think and hereby claim that God's justice is not intended for the poor?

Or indeed is it that your Lexicon is what shuts out any social justice for the poor?

The person has already told you correctly and your denial of the obvious is just ugly.

So here is a reference from me for you:
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. KJV. Psalm 82.

And if you truly intend to argue about no justice for the poor as being in the Bible then what about the rightful Samaritan of Luke 10:30-37, unless you view that as having nothing to do with justice for the poor and needy.

JP Cusick said:

So do you think and hereby claim that God's justice is not intended for the poor?

Click to expand...

God's justice is for everyone equally not just the poor.

Or indeed is it that your Lexicon is what shuts out any social justice for the poor?

Click to expand...

The lexicon is a dictionary that tells what the definitions of words are. mishap means justice. as i have posted like 5 times now. so if they used the word justice or some context of justice then that word is going to appear there.

The person has already told you correctly and your denial of the obvious is just ugly.

Click to expand...

They didn't tell me anything the lexicon is the go to on word definitions. the word they are using means justice not justice for the poor. no where in the lexicon is poor even mentioned.

So here is a reference from me for you:
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

That isn't a reference it is telling you that the word means justice for judgement see the lexicon.

3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

Click to expand...

yes because the word means justice or do you not understand the definition yet. so anywhere you see justice you are going to see that word used.:doh

4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. KJV. Psalm 82.

Click to expand...

The word isn't used there because no form of justice or judgement etc is being used.

And if you truly intend to argue about no justice for the poor as being in the Bible then what about the rightful Samaritan of Luke 10:30-37, unless you view that as having nothing to do with justice for the poor and needy.

Click to expand...

This is a strawman. i never said anything that the bible said there was not justice for the poor.

I said justice in the bible applies to everyone not just the poor.
mishpat means justice see 2 posts above. Justice applied to everyone equally not just the poor.

i correct someone that used the word mishpat incorrectly. mishpat means justice. not justice for the poor.

if you want to argue someone at least understand their argument.

Click to expand...

ludin said:

I said justice in the bible applies to everyone not just the poor.
mishpat means justice see 2 posts above. Justice applied to everyone equally not just the poor.

i correct someone that used the word mishpat incorrectly. mishpat means justice. not justice for the poor.

if you want to argue someone at least understand their argument.

Click to expand...

You simply must be a Republican.

What the person said was correct in the first place and you are adding NOTHING to it in the second place.

See their comment which is very clear in their post to you #42 =

Perhaps far more pertinent is that justice for the poor really means that the rich are not to deny justice from the poor.

So yes justice applies to both the rich and to the poor but both socially and financially the rich reign over top of the poor, and thereby expecting any opposite application as in the poor giving justice to the rich can really only happen in a rebellion or violent overthrow.

The rich need to give justice to the poor, while the poor need to be given the justice from the rich - that is reality and that is Biblical.

It might be possible that you are trying to talk about some form of justice after-death, but after death there is not to be any rich or poor - or at least let us hope not.

JP Cusick said:

You simply must be a Republican.

What the person said was correct in the first place and you are adding NOTHING to it in the second place.

See their comment which is very clear in their post to you #42 =

Perhaps far more pertinent is that justice for the poor really means that the rich are not to deny justice from the poor.

So yes justice applies to both the rich and to the poor but both socially and financially the rich reign over top of the poor, and thereby expecting any opposite application as in the poor giving justice to the rich can really only happen in a rebellion or violent overthrow.

The rich need to give justice to the poor, while the poor need to be given the justice from the rich - that is reality and that is Biblical.

It might be possible that you are trying to talk about some form of justice after-death, but after death there is not to be any rich or poor - or at least let us hope not.

Click to expand...

look now 3 or 4 posts above and show me where poor is anywhere in that definition i dare you to show me where poor is listed.
Justice meant justice not just for the poor but for everyone.

mishpat means justice period.
no what the person said was not correct. mishpat means justice or judgement in general no where in the definition for mishpat is the word poor used.

no i am talking about the word mishpat. the word mishpat in hebrew means justice period. no where in the hebrew lexicon does it mean justice for the poor.
it means justice period. going a step further it means justice for all equally rich or poor.

again you are still distorting what i said you lose.

ludin said:

look now 3 or 4 posts above and show me where poor is anywhere in that definition i dare you to show me where poor is listed.
Justice meant justice not just for the poor but for everyone.

mishpat means justice period.
no what the person said was not correct. mishpat means justice or judgement in general no where in the definition for mishpat is the word poor used.

no i am talking about the word mishpat. the word mishpat in hebrew means justice period. no where in the hebrew lexicon does it mean justice for the poor.
it means justice period. going a step further it means justice for all equally rich or poor.

again you are still distorting what i said you lose.

Click to expand...

You are - as they say - beating a dead horse.

The phrase.

And I am not going to beat that same dead horse along with you.

You really need to grow up a little here.

JP Cusick said:

You are - as they say - beating a dead horse.

The phrase.

And I am not going to beat that same dead horse along with you.

You really need to grow up a little here.

Click to expand...

Nope i proved what i needed to prove you can't accept it that is not my problem.

just as i proved that there will be people go to hell with satan and his demons. you can't accept that either. even though Jesus himself said that not everyone will enter into heaven.
you couldn't rebuttal that either.

thanks for the concession. the word of God always wins.

ludin said:

i just posted the definition of the word there is not such meaning as you posted have a nice day. no where is the word poor mentioned in any of the definition.
have a nice day.

Click to expand...

Ok ... so you proved someone else wrong, on something that was never said .... congratulations ... pay attention to what's actually being said Next time.

RGacky3 said:

Ok ... so you proved someone else wrong, on something that was never said .... congratulations ... pay attention to what's actually being said Next time.

Click to expand...

I did thanks for playing.

ludin said:

Nope i proved what i needed to prove you can't accept it that is not my problem.

Click to expand...

Amen to that.

And I really do appreciate your moving this discussion onward.

ludin said:

just as i proved that there will be people go to hell with satan and his demons. you can't accept that either. even though Jesus himself said that not everyone will enter into heaven.
you couldn't rebuttal that either.

thanks for the concession. the word of God always wins.

Click to expand...

You are correct that I can not accept that any person or Devil or Demon would ever be burned in a Hell for all eternity - in fact I would willfully defy any such thing as that.

Jesus tells about feeding the hungry and giving help to the needy, visiting those in jails, to clothe people, and yet the majority of Christianity claims as "justice" is to burn people and demons in a Hell as they claim it is God giving "justice" to sinners.

It troubles me that so many people view the loving Father God and or view Jesus the Christ as burning people and they call that as justice.

And I do not want to start up any dictionary definition of justice again, so what happened to the view of mercy, forgiveness, love, salvation, etc.

The Christian Bible tells us to love thy enemies, see Luke 6:32-36, and that message of love and mercy can not have any meaning to any person who believes in a Hell.

And just for the OP too, that message of love and mercy of Luke 6:32-36 has no connection of destroying sinners with complete destruction.

It is not here a question of your faith in God - no - the the question is - what happened to your own human decency?

A place of Hell or of eternal damnation or of eternal destruction can not coexist with that Bible text.

JP Cusick said:

Amen to that.

And I really do appreciate your moving this discussion onward.


You are correct that I can not accept that any person or Devil or Demon would ever be burned in a Hell for all eternity - in fact I would willfully defy any such thing as that.

Jesus tells about feeding the hungry and giving help to the needy, visiting those in jails, to clothe people, and yet the majority of Christianity claims as "justice" is to burn people and demons in a Hell as they claim it is God giving "justice" to sinners.

It troubles me that so many people view the loving Father God and or view Jesus the Christ as burning people and they call that as justice.

And I do not want to start up any dictionary definition of justice again, so what happened to the view of mercy, forgiveness, love, salvation, etc.

The Christian Bible tells us to love thy enemies, see Luke 6:32-36, and that message of love and mercy can not have any meaning to any person who believes in a Hell.

And just for the OP too, that message of love and mercy of Luke 6:32-36 has no connection of destroying sinners with complete destruction.

It is not here a question of your faith in God - no - the the question is - what happened to your own human decency?

A place of Hell or of eternal damnation or of eternal destruction can not coexist with that Bible text.

Click to expand...

The whole reasoning behind the description( symbolism) of a place that looks like a real hell, but symbolic for the eternal value of one being eternally cut off from God and not being apart of his kingdom. The lake of fire= eternal destruction.
God set this before all-Deuteronomy 30:19)life or death-- I doubt 4% are ever taught this truth. Its a very serious matter.