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Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.[W:145]

Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

There are many options besides divine or fraud. There are, for example, fictional, mistaken, or crazy. That is, mistaken in that he had legitimate reason to conclude divine inspiration, but it was based on mistaken facts. One doesn't necessarily have to be crazy to have a vision, and throughout most of history, people didn't know that you have to be crazy to listen to them. There could have been a real preacher about whom stories were later told that added divinity. I tend to lean towards that last option, or sometimes fictional.

Essentially, I find myself repeating some of what Captain Courtesy said. Divine or fraud is a false dichotomy. This applies not only to the story of Jesus, but many religious figures from many cultures. I think we ought to evaluate ideas like those presented in the gospels based on their own merit instead of relying on authority.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

Even the council of nicaea debated this at length. You can see why declaring God to exist in the flesh would be controversial. Opinion on accuracy of this or that verse isn't necessarily dependent on "feel good." Someone could reason "Matthew's was first so his should carry most weight and there's no allusion to being God."

Consider the gospels were likely written decades after the events they refer to. So...you're reading translation of translation of translation of someone else's account of what Jesus said. Obviously an event like resurrection either happened or did not, but do you expect every cited word from decades prior to be identical to the original speaker?

Then there's this little tidbit: "I go unto the Father; for the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

X Factor said:
Do whatever you want, CC. The idea for this thread can from the discussion about whether the Trinity is real. There are several opinions expressed that, basically, Jesus is in fact a liar and the Christians have it all wrong. The funny thing is that I'm not taking any issue with that. Yes, the discussion is whether or not Jesus is the Son of God as He repeatedly claimed. This would not be the first thread here of that nature.

I'd admit, I could not be more surprised at your "unique" approach. If you feel I'm engaged in baiting or violating DP rules or trying to bait others to violate the rules (which was not my intent at all), then, of course, I know that you'll do whatever you feel is necessary.
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And yet you didn't address the issues with the false dichotomy. There are other possibilities as I presented.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

X Factor said:
Either the Bible contains truth or it doesn't. What doesn't make sense is assuming that all the feel good parts are true but none of the other more challenging stuff is.
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No, this is also a false dichotomy, and a rather rigid one at that. The Bible may be truth, but in what context. Is it historical truth? Is it literal truth? Is it moral truth? Is it metaphorical truth? If it is one of these, that means that, contextually, there is truth to what the Bible says, but also aspects that are not to be taken literally.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

ludin said:
There really isn't a false dichotomy. Either Christ was who he claimed to be which is the Son of God that takes away the sins of the world, or he is the biggest liar in history, and he has duped 10's of millions of people or more through out history.

No if the NT is untrue that means Christ was not who he said he was and therefore is a liar.

it can be discussed without attacking religion. it comes down to the fact that you either believe he said who he was or you consider what he claimed to be a lie.

even great motivational speakers fade. their words die with them and only every now and then resurface. they don't convert millions and millions of people. more so when at the start people that believe them are slaughtered like no one's business.
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No, my original post in this thread still stands to what you say here. I see nothing that disputes it.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

X Factor said:
I have seen on several occassions where some proclaim respect or even "love" for Christ yet refer to Him as just a (good) man or just a prophet of God. The problem is that Jesus is very explicit in who He is and His relationship to God. In order to disbelieve he's the Son of God you have to believe everything He said is a lie. Would God choose, as His prophet, someone who leads people astray?

I realize this may be the shortest thread in DP history. Those who don't believe in Jesus certainly tend not to be too bothered about proclaiming Him a liar and it's not those people or believers, such as myself, that I'm talking or referring to. This thread is really addressing those that are "fence sitters" so to speak, who, while I appreciate them not wanting to show disrespect to Christ nevertheless cannot have it both ways. Either Jesus is a complete liar and fraud, or He truly what He proclaimed he is, The Son of God.

Just some late night musings when I should be sleeping. :)
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Note: The New Testament was not written by Jesus. It does not have to be accepted as all or nothing. It is an accumulation of accounts and writings and so people are free to believe that some liberties were taken without dismissing Jesus Christ. Black and white thinking is seldom a useful way to understand the world.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

CriticalThought said:
Note: The New Testament was not written by Jesus. It does not have to be accepted as all or nothing. It is an accumulation of accounts and writings and so people are free to believe that some liberties were taken without dismissing Jesus Christ. Black and white thinking is seldom a useful way to understand the world.
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Precisely one of the possibilities that I presented.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

In the title page of the Book of Mormon, the ancient prophet/editor of the book states the purpose of the text is "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations."

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
 
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Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

Jesus didn't lie to us, but his words are difficult to interpret because of all the translations and time displacements from the original context they were spoken. Not to mention his words were written down some decades after his death.

As much as staunch believers don't want to admit it, the Bible is hard to properly place without an outside frame of reference, otherwise you will be squabbling over internalized semantics to no end. All of the world's religions, underneath their sociocultural layers, are basically saying the same thing. If you take these universalities and overlay them over the words of Jesus, you'll know the exact context he said them in. There is one truth and one ultimate reality, no matter who is saying it.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

Northern Light said:
All of the world's religions, underneath their sociocultural layers, are basically saying the same thing.
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How can they possibly be the same when they teach different things?
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

it's just me said:
How can they possibly be the same when they teach different things?
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When it comes down to the bare basics, most of the world's religions do indeed hold to a common underlying theme. It's the details that they argue about.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

CaptainCourtesy said:
No, my original post in this thread still stands to what you say here. I see nothing that disputes it.
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no because you claimed a false dichomonty when there isn't one.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

CriticalThought said:
Note: The New Testament was not written by Jesus. It does not have to be accepted as all or nothing. It is an accumulation of accounts and writings and so people are free to believe that some liberties were taken without dismissing Jesus Christ. Black and white thinking is seldom a useful way to understand the world.
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Umm yes it does. Either the NT was written by men inspired by the word of God and of Jesus and wrote the accounts as they happened. or they didn't.
They made it up or part of it up or most of it up. which would be a very hard claim to back up.

more so of the author Luke who was a historian and not just any historian but a well noted historian.
Luke was also friends of Paul and traveled with him for a while and therefore would have met the disciples or at least a few of them during those travels.

There is nothing written that distracts from who Christ says he was in the bible. So we are back to the OP point.

Either Christ is who he said he was or he is the biggest fraud in the history of the world.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

it's just me said:
How can they possibly be the same when they teach different things?
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Northern Light said:
All of the world's religions, underneath their sociocultural layers, are basically saying the same thing.
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............
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

ludin said:
no because you claimed a false dichomonty when there isn't one.
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Could you please expand on that, since the alternate solutions to it are mentioned. Could you explain why the other alternatives are not valid? Why not 'mistaken, misquoted, misunderstood'?
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

X Factor said:
But if you're going to say that Jesus was misrepresented and His quoted words were not actually His, how can you acknowledge anything He says as actually being from Him? This is something I've noticed before. Verses about love and forgiveness an grace are rarely challenged. It's only the tough stuff, like God's judgment and hell that people say just is a misrepresentation or completely false.
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Because one statement might not seem consistent with the rest. If it goes on about love and forgiveness and not judging, then there's one line about everlasting torment, which do you dismiss as invented by the second hand writer?

To some, the words don't matter so much, just the miracles/resurrection/died for our sins. What i really don't get is why he didn't write it all himself to avoid all this controversy.
 
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Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

chromium said:
Because one statement might not seem consistent with the rest. If it goes on about love and forgiveness and not judging, then there's one line about everlasting torment, which do you dismiss as invented by the second hand writer?

To some, the words don't matter so much, just the miracles/resurrection/died for our sins. What i really don't get is why he didn't write it all himself to avoid all this controversy.
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That's a very good question to ponder. We know that Jesus was literate--so why did He choose to leave the living Word rather than the written word?
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

ludin said:
no because you claimed a false dichomonty when there isn't one.
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No, there is a false dichotomy, that's why nothing in your post refuted me.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

Your Star said:
Yeah, no. You're conclusion here is just plain false. One can very much so appreciate the non-spiritual message of Christ without having to believe that Christ is God. /thread
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Well sure, you could appreciate some of the things Jesus said the same way you might a slogan on a bumper sticker or a t-shirt. As to the actual person of Jesus Christ, there really are only two possibilities, either He is the Son of God or He isn't. I'd be curious what this third option would be. He's sort of the Son of God? He's actually the nephew of God?
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

CaptainCourtesy said:
And yet you didn't address the issues with the false dichotomy. There are other possibilities as I presented.
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That wasn't the challenge you presented me with, CC. Your challenge to me was to come up with a counter argument to my OP that did not violate the rules of this forum. I figured that since such a discussion was already taking place, that answered your questions. Can I assume that I'm correct on that since this thread is still here?
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

CaptainCourtesy said:
No, there is a false dichotomy, that's why nothing in your post refuted me.
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hehe saying your wrong isn't an argument and i did refute what you said. we are discussing the bible and christian religion. so either the bible is true as stated and Jesus is who he said he was or he isn't. if he isn't then he is the biggest con man in the history of the world. The people that wrote the bible are some of the largest and most creative story tellers of all time.

they should be praised for their litterary genious if anything else.

as i stated there isn't a false dichonomy. in this case there really is only 2 choices. the bible is true or it isn't. there is no grey area that it might be true or might be false or some here or there.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

chromium said:
Because one statement might not seem consistent with the rest. If it goes on about love and forgiveness and not judging, then there's one line about everlasting torment, which do you dismiss as invented by the second hand writer?

To some, the words don't matter so much, just the miracles/resurrection/died for our sins. What i really don't get is why he didn't write it all himself to avoid all this controversy.
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He probably didn't have time. His ministry only lasted about 3.5 years in which he was mostly traveling. he wouldn't have time to write anything down.
however we have 4 accounts of Christs ministry from 4 people that either new him or was around him during his life.

all of them are consistant through the entire thing while giving a different point of view.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

chromium said:
Because one statement might not seem consistent with the rest. If it goes on about love and forgiveness and not judging, then there's one line about everlasting torment, which do you dismiss as invented by the second hand writer?

To some, the words don't matter so much, just the miracles/resurrection/died for our sins. What i really don't get is why he didn't write it all himself to avoid all this controversy.
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Actually, I think Christ's words are very consistent. All of them. Yes, He was about love and grace and mercy but that did not mean that He condoned sin or preached that there would be no consequences.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

X Factor said:
Well sure, you could appreciate some of the things Jesus said the same way you might a slogan on a bumper sticker or a t-shirt. As to the actual person of Jesus Christ, there really are only two possibilities, either He is the Son of God or He isn't. I'd be curious what this third option would be. He's sort of the Son of God? He's actually the nephew of God?
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This is shifting the goal posts. Of course there is the two sided nature of what/who Jesus was (and is, according to some). But you hadn't left your OP as simply is or is not. You talked about his being a liar. Specifically you said "Either Jesus is a complete liar and fraud...". That statement alone eliminate any dual nature. We've showed how there could be any combination of truth and falsehood in regards to Jesus, and none of it can point specifically as to whether Jesus himself lied or not. The premise you presented may not be the premise you intended, but it is the presented one that we are responding to.
 
Re: Either Jesus is who He says He Is or He Isn't.

ludin said:
hehe saying your wrong isn't an argument and i did refute what you said. we are discussing the bible and christian religion. so either the bible is true as stated and Jesus is who he said he was or he isn't. if he isn't then he is the biggest con man in the history of the world. The people that wrote the bible are some of the largest and most creative story tellers of all time.

they should be praised for their litterary genious if anything else.
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You wrote these as if they were the same thing. Jesus does not have to be a con man for someone else to write accounts incorrectly, intentionally or not. You can't call Jesus the liar oif the liar is the one writing the accounts.

[/QUOTE]as i stated there isn't a false dichonomy. in this case there really is only 2 choices. the bible is true or it isn't. there is no grey area that it might be true or might be false or some here or there.[/QUOTE]

Now you are changing the goal post. Are we talking about the bible being true or not, or about Jesus being a liar and a fraud or not?
 
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