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A little something on the Trinity for your reading pleasure.

it's just me

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This is from Martin Thornton's "Christian Proficiency". You won't find this posted on the internet, I typed it up from a paper copy, but Amazon has the book. "Christian Proficiency" is the best book on spiritual formation I have seen, I have read it a couple of times and refer to it often.

This passage explains something of the Trinity and how it applies to our lives.

The doctrine of the Trinity, far from being merely academic, is the expression of the most fundamental human experience, and, we shall see later, it is of much practical use. Only the view that God is transcendent, majestic, almighty, the creator of the universe and standing outside it, can fully satisfy the human mind. Yet we know that he must also be immanent, in the world, close to us, giving us life; "in him we live, and move, and have our being". And this is an absurd contradiction without the mediation of the second Person of the Trinity. This experience is common to all men, though only the Christian revelation adequately expresses it, that is why the idea is hinted at, groped after, throughout the Old Testament: Jehovah the God of all, the Messiah, his anointed, and the indwelling Wisdom.

Without this conception of God as Unity-in-Trinity, which itself sets Christianity apart from any other system, religion must tend towards one of two things. Either it is immanental and worldly, like Confucianism, which becomes very largely ethical. It fails to face the fact—never mind the theory— of original sin and experience proves that however laudable it may be to proclaim the brotherhood
of nations and to exhort men to love one another, it has singularly little effect; it just does not work.

And it must be admitted that the type of so-called Christianity that puts all the emphasis on the moral teaching of Jesus is not likely to fare much better. Or non-Trinitarian religion is transcendental, or other-worldly, to the point of complete world renunciation, like a good deal of Eastern religion. This faces the fact of present evil but the only hope is to escape from it altogether and become "absorbed" in God. Not unnaturally, such religion reaches great heights of a certain type of mystical and contemplative prayer. The One tries to influence the world for good and fails, the other is not interested in the world at all: neither is very efficient.

What we must do is to consider one or two points about the Incarnation itself, upon which it all depends. As briefly as possible, Jesus Christ is perfectly God and perfectly man; because he is God he has the power of redemption, because he is man he is in a position to use it. Now when we say that Christ is man, we mean two interrelated things; he is truly and perfectly a man "like unto us in all things, sin except" but he is also a new humanity, summing up the whole human race in himself. In Dr Mascall's words: "There is thus in Christ a new creation of manhood out of the material of the fallen human race. There is continuity with the fallen race through the manhood taken from Mary; there is discontinuity through the fact that the Person of Christ is the pre-existent Logos." (Word, Son of God, eternal second person of the Trinity.) "In Christ human nature has been re-created by
the very God who was its first creator; and the new creation is effected, not like the first creation by the mere decree of omnipotent Will—'Let us make man in our own image'—but by the creator himself becoming man and moulding human nature to the lineaments of his own Person. Christ is thus quite literally the Second Adam, the man in whom the human race begins anew; but while the
first Adam was, in all his innocence, only God's creature, the Second Adam is the Creator himself. In him human nature is made afresh, and in him the mysterious distortion which succeeding generations have inherited from man's first disobedience, and which theology knows as original sin, has no place."

The tremendous fact is that our fallen human nature can be redeemed, or renewed, or regenerated, by this new manhood of Christ; we can really share in the new humanity of Christ and, of special importance here, we can really share in his redemptive work. This new humanity of Christ is a permanent thing, it is not simply the human nature of Christ which he "had" during his life on earth,
but the new all-embracing humanity now risen, ascended, and glorified- unrestricted by time and space, in which we can truly share. When we speak about "putting off the old Adam and putting on the new Man" we are not talking of possible moral effort but of a certain acquired status. Dr Mascall sums it up thus: "It is almost universally assumed to-day that becoming a Christian means in essence the adoption of a new set of beliefs or the initiation of a new mode of behaviour. A Christian would be defined as one who ' believes in Christ' or ' worships Christ' or ' tries to follow Christ's teaching'.

Now it is far from my purpose to belittle either Christian dogma or Christian ethics. Nevertheless, it must be pointed out that to define the essence of Christianity in terms either of belief or of practice involves the neglect of two principles that are fundamental to all sound theology. The former of these is that the act of God precedes and is presupposed by the acts of man: ' Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us'; 'Ye have come to know God, or rather to be known of God.'

The second is that what a being is precedes what it does; our actions are a consequence of what we are. ... It will follow from this that the Christian should be defined not in terms of what he himself does, but of what God has made him to be. Being a Christian is an ontological fact, resulting from an act of God.

"What, then, is this act by which God makes a man into a Christian? It is, the New Testament assures us, incorporation into the human nature of Christ, an incorporation by which the very life of the Man Christ Jesus is communicated to us and we are re-created in him. 'I am the vine; ye are the branches'; ' If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature', or 'there is a new creation'; we have been 'grafted into' Christ like shoots into a tree. The Christian is a man to whom something has happened, something moreover which is irreversible and which penetrates to the very roots of his being; be is a man who has been re-created in, and into, Christ.

"Now the basis of this ontological change by which a man becomes a Christian is the permanence of the human nature of Christ. We have already seen . . . how necessary it is to hold that the divine Word really became flesh, that he united to himself, unconfusedly and inseparably, a concrete human nature, and that that human nature, though glorified by his Resurrection and Ascension and no longer subject to the limitations which governed it during the period of his humiliation, is nevertheless still in existence and still fully human. As the Epistle to the Hebrews teaches, it is with his manhood still intact and for ever united to his divine Person that Christ has entered into the realm of the 'heavenlies', there to make perpetual intercession for us. The re-creation of manhood in Christ was not finished when, in the womb of Mary, he had united a perfect and unblemished human nature to himself, or even when in that human nature, by his death on Calvary, he had, as our representative, offered to the Father the oblation of love and obedience that we were powerless to offer ourselves. The truth is not merely that in Christ the new creation was effected on our behalf, but that through our union with him it is to be brought about in each one of us. Becoming a Christian means being re-created by being incorporated into the glorified manhood of the ascended Christ, so that, in the words of the Epistle to the Ephesians, we are raised up with him and made to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Jesus Christ."
 
Greetings, it's just me!


it's just me (Post #1):

Martin Thornton's "Christian Proficiency". . . .

This passage explains something of the Trinity and how it applies to our lives.


"The doctrine of the Trinity, . . . Only the view that God is transcendent, majestic, almighty, the creator of the universe and standing outside it, can fully satisfy the human mind. Yet we know that he must also be immanent, in the world, close to us, giving us life; "in him we live, and move, and have our being". And this is an absurd contradiction without the mediation of the second Person of the Trinity. . . . "


peaceBwithU:

That of GOD which is "immanent, in the world, close to us, giving us life," it's just me, is the so-called "Spirit" of GOD, that is to say, is "the will or MENTAL POWER of God
ACTUALIZING God's will (plans/purposes) for his WORKS." (No "universe," no "world," no "us" = no "holy Spirit," which is simply a term, a literary device, used to make a distinction between the Divine Being and that same Divine Being INTERACTING with a creation.


All the best to you, it's just me!
 
Greetings, it's just me!


it's just me (Post #1):

Martin Thornton's "Christian Proficiency". . . .

This passage explains something of the Trinity and how it applies to our lives.


"The doctrine of the Trinity, . . . Only the view that God is transcendent, majestic, almighty, the creator of the universe and standing outside it, can fully satisfy the human mind. Yet we know that he must also be immanent, in the world, close to us, giving us life; "in him we live, and move, and have our being". And this is an absurd contradiction without the mediation of the second Person of the Trinity. . . . "


peaceBwithU:

That of GOD which is "immanent, in the world, close to us, giving us life," it's just me, is the so-called "Spirit" of GOD, that is to say, is "the will or MENTAL POWER of God
ACTUALIZING God's will (plans/purposes) for his WORKS." (No "universe," no "world," no "us" = no "holy Spirit," which is simply a term, a literary device, used to make a distinction between the Divine Being and that same Divine Being INTERACTING with a creation.


All the best to you, it's just me!

Thank you for your reply. I have heard this before but never had it explained.
 
This is from Martin Thornton's "Christian Proficiency". You won't find this posted on the internet, I typed it up from a paper copy, but Amazon has the book. "Christian Proficiency" is the best book on spiritual formation I have seen, I have read it a couple of times and refer to it often.

This passage explains something of the Trinity and how it applies to our lives.


Gods word teaches---Jesus was made lower than the angels--an impossibility for him to be God--Mortals killed Jesus the mortal---mortals could never kill God.
Psalm 45:7--this is speaking about Jesus--he had partners( angels) because he is an angel--Michael-Daniel 12:1
 
Gods word teaches---Jesus was made lower than the angels--an impossibility for him to be God--Mortals killed Jesus the mortal---mortals could never kill God.

You create two strawmen there. First, Jesus 'made lower than the angels' only refers to his incarnation. And by the way, don't you JW's believe Jesus was or is the Archangel Michael?

Second, Jesus never died spiritually - only physically.

And by the way, the scriptures confirm Jesus was equal with God and in his very nature God:

Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.


Psalm 45:7--this is speaking about Jesus--he had partners( angels) because he is an angel--Michael-Daniel 12:1

Wait a second. You said Jesus was made lower than the angels, and now you're saying he was / is an angel?
 
Scholar and author Kevin J. Conner lists 27 initial scriptural evidences demonstrating the deity of Christ:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30). (The Righter Report)

And there's tons more of these scriptural evidences besides these. See Post # 5 for another example - Philippians 2:5-7.
 
This is from Martin Thornton's "Christian Proficiency". You won't find this posted on the internet, I typed it up from a paper copy, but Amazon has the book. "Christian Proficiency" is the best book on spiritual formation I have seen, I have read it a couple of times and refer to it often.

This passage explains something of the Trinity and how it applies to our lives.


“Reason and faith cannot be separated without diminishing the capacity of men and women to know themselves, the world and God in an appropriate way.” Pope John Paul II

You have provided a perfect example within your post.
 
You create two strawmen there. First, Jesus 'made lower than the angels' only refers to his incarnation. And by the way, don't you JW's believe Jesus was or is the Archangel Michael?

Second, Jesus never died spiritually - only physically.

And by the way, the scriptures confirm Jesus was equal with God and in his very nature God:

Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.




Wait a second. You said Jesus was made lower than the angels, and now you're saying he was / is an angel?


Jesus is an angel--Michael( psalm 45:7--partners = angels)--on earth he was made lower than the angels--a mortal.
When JW leaders were allowed into catholic archives in the Vatican--they came out with proof that Phil 2:5 was mistranslated in trinity versions. It did not say it that way in the older writings.
 
Scholar and author Kevin J. Conner lists 27 initial scriptural evidences demonstrating the deity of Christ:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30). (The Righter Report)

And there's tons more of these scriptural evidences besides these. See Post # 5 for another example - Philippians 2:5-7.



Scholar should have listened to truth from the bible writers--John 20:17, rev 3:12---2Cor 1:3,,1Cor 8:6,1Cor 15:24-28---rev 1:6---Jesus has a God--his Father=Jehovah.

And when one reads Gods word they clearly see--everything Jesus knows was taught to him by the Father--everything he has was given to him by the Father. Without the Fathers power going through him--Jesus said he could do 0 of his own. those posts of your scholars have to be twisted to say Jesus is God.


Gods appointed king--the Messiah--receives--obeisance not worship--a major translating error to mislead and fit Catholicism council teachings( dogma)
 
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Jesus is an angel--Michael( psalm 45:7--partners = angels)--on earth he was made lower than the angels--a mortal.
When JW leaders were allowed into catholic archives in the Vatican--they came out with proof that Phil 2:5 was mistranslated in trinity versions. It did not say it that way in the older writings.

One of the strongest arguments against Jesus being an angel is found in the book of Hebrews. In chapter one, the writer of Hebrews showed the superiority of Jesus over the angelic beings, and contrasted Him with them.

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.” But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak You will fold them up, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail.” But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? (1:5-13).

Jesus’ superiority over the angels is seen in the fact that the Father spoke to Jesus as His special begotten Son to Whom He gave the seat of honor at His right hand (1:5,13). Furthermore, the writer of Hebrews indicated that God commanded all angels to worship Jesus (1:6; cf. Revelation 5:11-13; Philippians 2:10). Yet, if Jesus were an angel, how could He accept the worship of other “lesser” angels when, according to Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9, angels do not accept worship, but rather preach the worship of God, and no other? Hebrews chapter one is a death knell to the idea of Jesus, the Son of God, being Michael, the archangel. [NOTE: Interestingly, John H. Paton, the most frequently used contributing writer in 1879 of Charles Taze Russel (the founder of The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society), admitted such when he stated in The Watchtower magazine near the end of its inaugural year: “Hence it is said, ‘let all the angels of God worship him’: (that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God)…” (1879, p. 4, emp. added). Sadly, even though Paton rejected the idea of Jesus being Michael the archangel, and even though Russell, The Watchtower's founder and first editor and publisher, allowed such a teaching in the magazine's first year of publication, Jehovah’s Witnesses today hold firmly to the doctrine that Jesus is Michael, the archangel.]

Apologetics Press - Is Jesus Really Michael the Archangel?

Also, I don't believe what you wrote about about Philippians 2:4-5. The NIV Study Bible is based on the oldest extant manuscripts and it contradicts what you are alleging.
 
“Reason and faith cannot be separated without diminishing the capacity of men and women to know themselves, the world and God in an appropriate way.” Pope John Paul II

You have provided a perfect example within your post.

Thank you. Pastor Thornton would be pleased.
 
Gods word teaches---Jesus was made lower than the angels--an impossibility for him to be God--Mortals killed Jesus the mortal---mortals could never kill God.
Psalm 45:7--this is speaking about Jesus--he had partners( angels) because he is an angel--Michael-Daniel 12:1

This is so theologically impossible I am not even going to dignify it with a response.
 
One of the strongest arguments against Jesus being an angel is found in the book of Hebrews. In chapter one, the writer of Hebrews showed the superiority of Jesus over the angelic beings, and contrasted Him with them.

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.” But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak You will fold them up, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail.” But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? (1:5-13).

Jesus’ superiority over the angels is seen in the fact that the Father spoke to Jesus as His special begotten Son to Whom He gave the seat of honor at His right hand (1:5,13). Furthermore, the writer of Hebrews indicated that God commanded all angels to worship Jesus (1:6; cf. Revelation 5:11-13; Philippians 2:10). Yet, if Jesus were an angel, how could He accept the worship of other “lesser” angels when, according to Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9, angels do not accept worship, but rather preach the worship of God, and no other? Hebrews chapter one is a death knell to the idea of Jesus, the Son of God, being Michael, the archangel. [NOTE: Interestingly, John H. Paton, the most frequently used contributing writer in 1879 of Charles Taze Russel (the founder of The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society), admitted such when he stated in The Watchtower magazine near the end of its inaugural year: “Hence it is said, ‘let all the angels of God worship him’: (that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God)…” (1879, p. 4, emp. added). Sadly, even though Paton rejected the idea of Jesus being Michael the archangel, and even though Russell, The Watchtower's founder and first editor and publisher, allowed such a teaching in the magazine's first year of publication, Jehovah’s Witnesses today hold firmly to the doctrine that Jesus is Michael, the archangel.]

Apologetics Press - Is Jesus Really Michael the Archangel?

Also, I don't believe what you wrote about about Philippians 2:4-5. The NIV Study Bible is based on the oldest extant manuscripts and it contradicts what you are alleging.


Where is Jesus in ot? He must be mentioned by name many times, but he is not-he was 2nd in command always. Here is the proof, but few will believe-- Rev 6--the start of the war in heaven--The rider of the white( righteous) horse is Michael---Michael leads Gods armies against satan and his angels and casts them to the vicinity of the earth. He receives his crown( Jesus gets the crown) Jesus is the leader of Gods armies and the white horse is his--he rides it again leading Gods armies At Har-mageddon. And 1 Thess 4:16--Announced by the trumpet of God, Jesus comes with the voice of the archangel---------- His voice. Michael came and stood up for the sons of Daniel--Daniel 12:1--then the gentiles could join as well. ---Psalm 45:7--talking about Jesus was more oiled than his partners--angels. Jesus is Michael.

Using bible chronology Mr Russell taught years before---peace will be taken from the earth in 1914---the year of the war in heaven and satan came as a devouring lion, angry, knowing his time was short--the preaching house to house had begun--Satan filled mens hearts with hatred all over the earth--ww1( millions slaughtered)--The JW leaders and men--were sent to prision--the work stopped--but began again after ww1 was over---After ww1--millions upon millions died( other 3 riders) from starvation, diseases, pestilence.
 
Where is Jesus in ot? He must be mentioned by name many times, but he is not-he was 2nd in command always. Here is the proof, but few will believe-- Rev 6--the start of the war in heaven--The rider of the white( righteous) horse is Michael---Michael leads Gods armies against satan and his angels and casts them to the vicinity of the earth. He receives his crown( Jesus gets the crown) Jesus is the leader of Gods armies and the white horse is his--he rides it again leading Gods armies At Har-mageddon. And 1 Thess 4:16--Announced by the trumpet of God, Jesus comes with the voice of the archangel---------- His voice. Michael came and stood up for the sons of Daniel--Daniel 12:1--then the gentiles could join as well. ---Psalm 45:7--talking about Jesus was more oiled than his partners--angels. Jesus is Michael.

Using bible chronology Mr Russell taught years before---peace will be taken from the earth in 1914---the year of the war in heaven and satan came as a devouring lion, angry, knowing his time was short--the preaching house to house had begun--Satan filled mens hearts with hatred all over the earth--ww1( millions slaughtered)--The JW leaders and men--were sent to prision--the work stopped--but began again after ww1 was over---After ww1--millions upon millions died( other 3 riders) from starvation, diseases, pestilence.

Jesus was spoken of in prophecy many times. Scholars say he even appeared in the OT. It's called a Christophany. Look it up.

You still haven't answered my objection that your Charlie Russell was a false prophet and would have been stoned in OT times, according to Biblical teaching. He said Jesus had come back in 1915. He was wrong.
 
Jesus was spoken of in prophecy many times. Scholars say he even appeared in the OT. It's called a Christophany. Look it up.

You still haven't answered my objection that your Charlie Russell was a false prophet and would have been stoned in OT times, according to Biblical teaching. He said Jesus had come back in 1915. He was wrong.

You listen to those who reason falsely out of their treacherous and desperate hearts.( Jerimiah 17:9)

reality

Harmageddon = a real prophecy that God made. Mr Russell is guilty of putting a date on a real prophecy that God made==Mr Russell did not make up a false prophecy.
He also taught years before that--Peace will be taken from the earth in 1914.( using correct bible chronology) This was the conclusion of the war in heaven( rev 6), not Harmageddon.


The name Jesus in ot = 0
 
You listen to those who reason falsely out of their treacherous and desperate hearts.( Jerimiah 17:9)

reality

Harmageddon = a real prophecy that God made. Mr Russell is guilty of putting a date on a real prophecy that God made==Mr Russell did not make up a false prophecy.
He also taught years before that--Peace will be taken from the earth in 1914.( using correct bible chronology) This was the conclusion of the war in heaven( rev 6), not Harmageddon.


The name Jesus in ot = 0

I knew you'd try to tapdance your way out of it.
 
You listen to those who reason falsely out of their treacherous and desperate hearts.( Jerimiah 17:9)

You've got a wee bit of judging going on here, kjw47. See Matthew 7: 1-3.
 
tl;dr

Is there a readers digest explanation of the trinity. Serious question. I know Jesus said "I and the Father are one" and John says "In the beginning was the Word". This doesn't seem incompatible with god the father and jesus being separate. Jesus also said the only way to the father was through the son, and his passion in gethsemane was so intense while praying to his father that it seems to show that he was praying to a separate being. Not to mention his addressing god the father as "abba".

Abba - > god the father

please take this cup from ME. There is clearly an Abba and a son.
 
tl;dr

Is there a readers digest explanation of the trinity. Serious question. I know Jesus said "I and the Father are one" and John says "In the beginning was the Word". This doesn't seem incompatible with god the father and jesus being separate. Jesus also said the only way to the father was through the son, and his passion in gethsemane was so intense while praying to his father that it seems to show that he was praying to a separate being. Not to mention his addressing god the father as "abba".

Abba - > god the father

please take this cup from ME. There is clearly an Abba and a son.

You forgot to read the rest of John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Jehovah's Witnesses will try to tell you that the latter part of that verse is supposed to say "the Word was a god", but that's only in their Bible, which they "translated" to match their "theology".
 
You've got a wee bit of judging going on here, kjw47. See Matthew 7: 1-3.


You have judged me wrong--We all are in possession of a treacherous and desperate heart---did you read the passage? Some let it get the better of them by reasoning falsely( a statement of fact--not judgement)
 
I shared the facts with you--its you tap dancing because you have no response.

No, I actually have the facts.

1877: Christ's kingdom would hold full sway over the earth in 1914; the Jews, as a people, would be restored to God's favor; the "saints" would be carried to heaven.[26]
1891: 1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men."[27]
1904: "World-wide anarchy" would follow the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.[28]
1916: World War I would terminate in Armageddon and the rapture of the "saints".[29]
1917: In 1918, Christendom would go down as a system to oblivion and be succeeded by revolutionary governments. God would "destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions." Church members would "perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy." The dead would lie unburied. In 1920 all earthly governments would disappear, with worldwide anarchy prevailing.[30]
1920: Messiah's kingdom would be established in 1925 and bring worldwide peace. God would begin restoring the earth. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful patriarchs would be resurrected to perfect human life and be made princes and rulers, the visible representatives of the New Order on earth. Those who showed themselves obedient to God would never die.[31]
1922: The anti-typical "jubilee" that would mark God's intervention in earthly affairs would take place "probably the fall" of 1925.[32]
1924: God's restoration of Earth would begin "shortly after" October 1, 1925. Jerusalem would be made the world's capital. Resurrected "princes" such as Abel, Noah, Moses and John the Baptist would give instructions to their subjects around the world by radio, and airplanes would transport people to and from Jerusalem from all parts of the globe in just "a few hours".[33]
1938: Armageddon was too close for marriage or child bearing.[34]
1941: There were only "months" remaining until Armageddon.[35]
1942: Armageddon was "immediately before us."[36]
1961: Awake! magazine stated that the heavenly kingdom "will, within the twentieth century, cleanse the entire earth of wickedness."[37]
1966: It would be 6000 years since man's creation in the fall of 1975 and it would be "appropriate" for Christ's thousand-year reign to begin at that time.[38] Time was "running out, no question about that."[39] The "immediate future" was "certain to be filled with climactic events ... within a few years at most", the final parts of Bible prophecy relating to the "last days" would undergo fulfillment as Christ's reign began.
1967: The end-time period (beginning in 1914) was claimed to be so far advanced that the time remaining could "be compared, not just to the last day of a week, but rather, to the last part of that day".[40]
1968: No one could say "with certainty" that the battle of Armageddon would begin in 1975, but time was "running out rapidly" with "earthshaking events" soon to take place.[41] In March 1968 there was a "short period of time left", with "only about ninety months left before 6000 years of man's existence on earth is completed".[42]
1969: The existing world order would not last long enough for young people to grow old; the world system would end "in a few years." Young Witnesses were told not to bother pursuing tertiary education for this reason.[43]
1971: The "battle in the day of Jehovah" was described as beginning "hortly, within our twentieth century".[44]
1974: There was just a "short time remaining before the wicked world's end" and Witnesses were commended for selling their homes and property to "finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service."[45]
1984: There were "many indications" that "the end" was closer than the end of the 20th century.[46]
1989: The Watchtower asserted that Christian missionary work begun in the first century would "be completed in our 20th century".[47] When republished in bound volumes, the phrase "in our 20th century" was replaced with the less specific "in our day".

When the JW's predictions fail, historically they fudge their response to it and move the goalposts, which is what you are trying to do. I am actually old enough to have seen JW literature on some of these things.
 
No, I actually have the facts.

1877: Christ's kingdom would hold full sway over the earth in 1914; the Jews, as a people, would be restored to God's favor; the "saints" would be carried to heaven.[26]
1891: 1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men."[27]
1904: "World-wide anarchy" would follow the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.[28]
1916: World War I would terminate in Armageddon and the rapture of the "saints".[29]
1917: In 1918, Christendom would go down as a system to oblivion and be succeeded by revolutionary governments. God would "destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions." Church members would "perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy." The dead would lie unburied. In 1920 all earthly governments would disappear, with worldwide anarchy prevailing.[30]
1920: Messiah's kingdom would be established in 1925 and bring worldwide peace. God would begin restoring the earth. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful patriarchs would be resurrected to perfect human life and be made princes and rulers, the visible representatives of the New Order on earth. Those who showed themselves obedient to God would never die.[31]
1922: The anti-typical "jubilee" that would mark God's intervention in earthly affairs would take place "probably the fall" of 1925.[32]
1924: God's restoration of Earth would begin "shortly after" October 1, 1925. Jerusalem would be made the world's capital. Resurrected "princes" such as Abel, Noah, Moses and John the Baptist would give instructions to their subjects around the world by radio, and airplanes would transport people to and from Jerusalem from all parts of the globe in just "a few hours".[33]
1938: Armageddon was too close for marriage or child bearing.[34]
1941: There were only "months" remaining until Armageddon.[35]
1942: Armageddon was "immediately before us."[36]
1961: Awake! magazine stated that the heavenly kingdom "will, within the twentieth century, cleanse the entire earth of wickedness."[37]
1966: It would be 6000 years since man's creation in the fall of 1975 and it would be "appropriate" for Christ's thousand-year reign to begin at that time.[38] Time was "running out, no question about that."[39] The "immediate future" was "certain to be filled with climactic events ... within a few years at most", the final parts of Bible prophecy relating to the "last days" would undergo fulfillment as Christ's reign began.
1967: The end-time period (beginning in 1914) was claimed to be so far advanced that the time remaining could "be compared, not just to the last day of a week, but rather, to the last part of that day".[40]
1968: No one could say "with certainty" that the battle of Armageddon would begin in 1975, but time was "running out rapidly" with "earthshaking events" soon to take place.[41] In March 1968 there was a "short period of time left", with "only about ninety months left before 6000 years of man's existence on earth is completed".[42]
1969: The existing world order would not last long enough for young people to grow old; the world system would end "in a few years." Young Witnesses were told not to bother pursuing tertiary education for this reason.[43]
1971: The "battle in the day of Jehovah" was described as beginning "hortly, within our twentieth century".[44]
1974: There was just a "short time remaining before the wicked world's end" and Witnesses were commended for selling their homes and property to "finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service."[45]
1984: There were "many indications" that "the end" was closer than the end of the 20th century.[46]
1989: The Watchtower asserted that Christian missionary work begun in the first century would "be completed in our 20th century".[47] When republished in bound volumes, the phrase "in our 20th century" was replaced with the less specific "in our day".

When the JW's predictions fail, historically they fudge their response to it and move the goalposts, which is what you are trying to do.




Yes imperfect men made errors --- then corrected them---on the other side 1750 years of refusing to correct errors. the choice.
 
Yes imperfect men made errors --- then corrected them---on the other side 1750 years of refusing to correct errors. the choice.

So you admit Russell was a false prophet?
 
Where is Jesus in ot? He must be mentioned by name many times, but he is not-he was 2nd in command always. Here is the proof, but few will believe-- Rev 6--the start of the war in heaven--The rider of the white( righteous) horse is Michael---Michael leads Gods armies against satan and his angels and casts them to the vicinity of the earth. He receives his crown( Jesus gets the crown) Jesus is the leader of Gods armies and the white horse is his--he rides it again leading Gods armies At Har-mageddon. And 1 Thess 4:16--Announced by the trumpet of God, Jesus comes with the voice of the archangel---------- His voice. Michael came and stood up for the sons of Daniel--Daniel 12:1--then the gentiles could join as well. ---Psalm 45:7--talking about Jesus was more oiled than his partners--angels. Jesus is Michael.

Using bible chronology Mr Russell taught years before---peace will be taken from the earth in 1914---the year of the war in heaven and satan came as a devouring lion, angry, knowing his time was short--the preaching house to house had begun--Satan filled mens hearts with hatred all over the earth--ww1( millions slaughtered)--The JW leaders and men--were sent to prision--the work stopped--but began again after ww1 was over---After ww1--millions upon millions died( other 3 riders) from starvation, diseases, pestilence.

Jesus is Jehovah

Jesus Must be Jehovah « The Righter Report
 
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