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A little something on the Trinity for your reading pleasure.

tosca1 said:
:lol:

Nice try.


You can't find anything to refute them.
Click to expand...

Refute what? There's no argument there. It's a Christian interpretation, of the Old Testament ... You might as well have a Muslim point to the New Testament to show that CHristians have always been Muslims in history, it's total nonsense.

If you have an argument post it here .... show me what the argument is.
 
RGacky3 said:
I read that one, there is NO evidence there at all, all it's doing is taking scriptures from the OT and putting in Trinitarian ideas there that simply are NOT there ... it's a Christian website, NOT a jewish website.

The article offers NO evidence that Yahweh is a triune being of 3 persons, yes the number 3 sometimes has some significants, so does the number 7, 10, 1, 77 and so on .... that doesn't say anything.

I already in my last post refuted some of the nonsense claims in this CHRISTIAN (not Jewish) WEbsite.



So are you claiming seriously that the Jews in the first Century BC and CE believed in a Trinity? Yet no one EVER wrote about it?



What I preach is actually making Your own arguments from scripture, and articulating them and quoting the scriptures ... not just posting links.



You're using the exact same argumentation, just copying and pasting links.



The Source I posted is an ACTUAL JEWISH SOURCE, and no, jews don't and never have believed in a triune God.

I don't know what that quote about Maimonides has to do With anything ....
Click to expand...


The facts of history do not lie:


From day 1 until today--the Israelites served a single being mono God named-YHWH(Jehovah)
This is the God taught to Jesus while attending the synagogues his first 30 years--he never once refuted that fact--because he knows its fact.
Pre Israelites such as Noah, Abraham, Job--all served a single being mono God named YHWH(Jehovah)
Yhwh(Jehovah) The name Jesus was very concerned with--John 17:6,26--the lords prayer--Hallowed be thy name(Father)
And that is why Jesus taught this truth--John 4:22-24----- The true worshippers will be worshipping the Father( Jehovah) because its the Father who is searching for the such to worship him in spirit and truth--and the hour is now---------- true worshippers do just that.

The trinity god was made up at Catholicism councils. thus the great apostasy formed
 
RGacky3 said:
Refute what? If you have an argument post it here .... show me what the argument is.
Click to expand...


The concept of the Triune God is in the Torah, the Prophets, and in the Writings --- that is in the whole Tanakh, the Hebrew Scriptures of the Old Testament, & the New Testament. Not only in the Tanakh but also in the Talmudical & Rabbinical writings.


The word Elohim is the plural of El (or possibly of Eloah) and is the first name for God given in the Tanakh:
"In the beginning, God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:1

The name Elohim is unique to Hebraic thinking: it occurs only in Hebrew and no other ancient Semitic language.
The form indeed allows for the plurality within the Godhead.

The Hebrew Name for God - Elohim


Refute those! Show me where it says the PLURAL form ELOHIM isn't used in the Tanakh.
That the concept of the Trinity isn't in any of those traditional Jewish books.
 
kjw47 said:
The facts of history do not lie:


From day 1 until today--the Israelites served a single being mono God named-YHWH(Jehovah)
This is the God taught to Jesus while attending the synagogues his first 30 years--he never once refuted that fact--because he knows its fact.
Pre Israelites such as Noah, Abraham, Job--all served a single being mono God named YHWH(Jehovah)
Yhwh(Jehovah) The name Jesus was very concerned with--John 17:6,26--the lords prayer--Hallowed be thy name(Father)
And that is why Jesus taught this truth--John 4:22-24----- The true worshippers will be worshipping the Father( Jehovah) because its the Father who is searching for the such to worship him in spirit and truth--and the hour is now---------- true worshippers do just that.

The trinity god was made up at Catholicism councils. thus the great apostasy formed
Click to expand...

Here's what I can't figure out: if you guys want to be Jews, be Jews. I don't see the point in trying to highjack Christianity and demote Jesus just because of your hatred of Catholicism and Catholic divines. All you have ended up with is a half-assed version of Christianity that offers no salvation.
 
it's just me said:
Here's what I can't figure out: if you guys want to be Jews, be Jews. I don't see the point in trying to highjack Christianity and demote Jesus just because of your hatred of Catholicism and Catholic divines. All you have ended up with is a half-assed version of Christianity that offers no salvation.
Click to expand...


I expose the table of demons to the world--if certain religions come off that table--I cant help it--I didn't do it. The Israelites were cut off of being Gods chosen-Matt 23:37-38) but God left the door open--they must accept Jesus as the messiah--its been over 1900 years--they haven't yet---Jesus started a new religion--- So that religion would be serving the same God of the ot as well as accepting Jesus as the messiah---this discounts all trinity religions,
What are you talking about--no salvation? its not what my teachers teach.
90% of all trinity followers know--0--because they cannot be bothered to study Gods written word--they just believe everything the guy in the white collar says. some go 2x a year--some go 1x a week. serving God is a 24/7 reality.
 
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kjw47 said:
I expose the table of demons to the world--if certain religions come off that table--I cant help it--I didn't do it. The Israelites were cut off of being Gods chosen-Matt 23:37-38) but God left the door open--they must accept Jesus as the messiah--its been over 1900 years--they haven't yet---Jesus started a new religion--- So that religion would be serving the same God of the ot as well as accepting Jesus as the messiah---this discounts all trinity religions,
What are you talking about--no salvation? its not what my teachers teach.
90% of all trinity followers know--0--because they cannot be bothered to study Gods written word--they just believe everything the guy in the white collar says. some go 2x a year--some go 1x a week. serving God is a 24/7 reality.
Click to expand...

You left off your own demons, the demons of anti-Christ. And Trinitarians DO study the Bible, some of us even went to University study it, but I suppose now you will try to tell me that a bunch of uneducated cultists know better.
 
it's just me said:
You left off your own demons, the demons of anti-Christ. And Trinitarians DO study the Bible, some of us even went to University study it, but I suppose now you will try to tell me that a bunch of uneducated cultists know better.
Click to expand...


They have something the rest don't--Jesus.

By the way ---which is a cult to Jesus

1) a disunified mass of confusion-33,000 different religions claiming to be of Jesus

2) a worldwide brotherhood, united in love and peace. taught to learn and apply every teaching from Jesus.
 
kjw47 said:
They have something the rest don't--Jesus.

By the way ---which is a cult to Jesus

1) a disunified mass of confusion-33,000 different religions claiming to be of Jesus

2) a worldwide brotherhood, united in love and peace. taught to learn and apply every teaching from Jesus.
Click to expand...

A cult to Jesus is a bunch of brainwashed cultists who five Jesus lip service and have no idea who he is.
 
it's just me said:
A cult to Jesus is a bunch of brainwashed cultists who five Jesus lip service and have no idea who he is.
Click to expand...


I agree--The JW,s know him well--do you? Do you believe what he teaches in the bible?
 
kjw47 said:
The facts of history do not lie:


From day 1 until today--the Israelites served a single being mono God named-YHWH(Jehovah)
This is the God taught to Jesus while attending the synagogues his first 30 years--he never once refuted that fact--because he knows its fact.
Pre Israelites such as Noah, Abraham, Job--all served a single being mono God named YHWH(Jehovah)
Yhwh(Jehovah) The name Jesus was very concerned with--John 17:6,26--the lords prayer--Hallowed be thy name(Father)
And that is why Jesus taught this truth--John 4:22-24----- The true worshippers will be worshipping the Father( Jehovah) because its the Father who is searching for the such to worship him in spirit and truth--and the hour is now---------- true worshippers do just that.

The trinity god was made up at Catholicism councils. thus the great apostasy formed
Click to expand...

Believe what you like I have no issue with that.

But "the facts of history" are clear that the Trinity was not made up in Nicaea or any other council. The idea of the Trinity in fact the use of the term predates the Nicaean Council by 200 years and is broadly taught across a wide geography within a Catholic Church that was decentralized prior to any councils.

Again you are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.
 
gilbertc1908 said:
Believe what you like I have no issue with that.

But "the facts of history" are clear that the Trinity was not made up in Nicaea or any other council. The idea of the Trinity in fact the use of the term predates the Nicaean Council by 200 years and is broadly taught across a wide geography within a Catholic Church that was decentralized prior to any councils.

Again you are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.
Click to expand...



The new catholic encyclopedia says not until the end of the 4th century was the trinity fully assimilated into the Christian life.-------( False teachers may have brought it up prior--But not Jesus, teachers, nor Jesus--the trinity teaching contradicts Jesus, Paul,John, Peter--all in agreement--The Father is Jesus' God. John 20:17, Rev 3:12----- 2Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15:24-28------Rev 1:6------- 1Peter 1:3---- It would be a wise choice to believe these 4.
 
kjw47 said:
The new catholic encyclopedia says not until the end of the 4th century was the trinity fully assimilated into the Christian life.-------( False teachers may have brought it up prior--But not Jesus, teachers, nor Jesus--the trinity teaching contradicts Jesus, Paul,John, Peter--all in agreement--The Father is Jesus' God. John 20:17, Rev 3:12----- 2Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15:24-28------Rev 1:6------- 1Peter 1:3---- It would be a wise choice to believe these 4.
Click to expand...

i would love a specific reference or citation from the encyclopedia, what is it you are referring to.
 
tosca1 said:
The concept of the Triune God is in the Torah, the Prophets, and in the Writings --- that is in the whole Tanakh, the Hebrew Scriptures of the Old Testament, & the New Testament. Not only in the Tanakh but also in the Talmudical & Rabbinical writings.


The word Elohim is the plural of El (or possibly of Eloah) and is the first name for God given in the Tanakh:
"In the beginning, God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:1

The name Elohim is unique to Hebraic thinking: it occurs only in Hebrew and no other ancient Semitic language.
The form indeed allows for the plurality within the Godhead.

The Hebrew Name for God - Elohim


Refute those! Show me where it says the PLURAL form ELOHIM isn't used in the Tanakh.
That the concept of the Trinity isn't in any of those traditional Jewish books.
Click to expand...

Oh it is used in the Tanakh, but show me a Jewish Source ever that interperates that as meaning God is a plurality of persons? You won't find ONE, not even among non Jewish Scholarship, even Christian scholarship.

Plural Magesterium
Plural Excellente

Plurality being used of a Singular person is used all over the Place in the ancient world, including in the Tanakh (Ezra 4:18, Genesis 4:10)

This is not strange, this isn't difficult, and no one has ever interperated the plural term Elohim when refered to Yahweh to refer to a plurality of People.

If you INSIST that Elohim MUST refer to a plural God, then you're going to have a lot of problems in the New testament, when it quotes scripturews that use Elohim and refer ONLY to the father ....

Some other interperatations are God and his angels or God and wisdom (matching the man and woman akin to the motif in proverbs).

The fact is in other Semetic cultures no one had a supreme being God, they had many gods, so the magestarium use of Elohim doesn't denotate anything.

If you want to insist that Elohim MUST mean a plural God, (which is patent nonsense) you're gonna have a real hard time keeping the Trinity straight in the NT.

The fact is no one in Jewish Scholarship, Or even Non Jewish Scholarship actually thinks that Elohim referes to a multi personal being.
 
RGacky3 said:
Oh it is used in the Tanakh, but show me a Jewish Source ever that interperates that as meaning God is a plurality of persons? You won't find ONE, not even among non Jewish Scholarship, even Christian scholarship.
Click to expand...

"Persons," is not an accurate term. But the very fact that the PLURAL Elohim is used indicates the concept of the plurality in the Godhead.

Anti-Trinitarian Jews cannot explain why the plural Elohim is used!


These singular-plural constructions have proven perplexing to Jewish commentators at various times. Rav Samuel ben Nachman wrote, expressing his own understanding that the singular-plural constructions tended to support the position of the trinitarian Christians,

"When Moses was engaged in writing the Torah, he had to write the work of each day. When he came to the verse, AND GOD SAID; LET US MAKE MAN, etc., he said: 'Sovereign of the Universe! Why dost Thou furnish an excuse to heretics?' (for maintaining a plurality of deity). 'Write,' replied He; 'whoever wishes to err may err.'"1

Nachman saw that Genesis 1:26 was furnishing "an excuse to heretics" in that it gave them reason to believe and teach "a plurality of deity." His statement against the plurality of the singular deity strongly suggests that he has the trinitarian doctrine in mind. Rabbi Simlai also recognized the difficulty produced by this singular-plural phenomenon, and was at a loss to provide a convincing explanation for it when questioned about it by "heretics."

"Wherever you find a point supporting the heretics, you find the refutation at its side. They [the heretics] asked him again: 'What is meant by, AND GOD SAID: LET US MAKE MAN?' 'Read what follows,' replied he: 'not, "And gods created War@b=Y!w^ [plural verb] man" is written here, but "And God created ar*b=Y!w^ [singular verb]' (Genesis 1:27). When they [the heretics] went out his disciples said to him: 'Them you have dismissed with a mere makeshift, but how will you answer us?"2

Here, he basically blew some smoke at the "heretics." They had questioned him about why Genesis 1:26 uses a plural noun with the singular verb conjugation, and he responded with a non-answer where he simply assumes the "elohim" to be singular (simply impossible) and joins it with the singular verb in v. 27, without any explanation as to why the "elohim" in v. 27 was any different than that in v. 26. His pupils recognized the deficiency of his response.


Uniplurality in the Hebrew Scriptures
 
tosca1 said:
"Persons," is not an accurate term. But the very fact that the PLURAL Elohim is used indicates the concept of the plurality in the Godhead.

Anti-Trinitarian Jews cannot explain why the plural Elohim is used!


These singular-plural constructions have proven perplexing to Jewish commentators at various times. Rav Samuel ben Nachman wrote, expressing his own understanding that the singular-plural constructions tended to support the position of the trinitarian Christians,

"When Moses was engaged in writing the Torah, he had to write the work of each day. When he came to the verse, AND GOD SAID; LET US MAKE MAN, etc., he said: 'Sovereign of the Universe! Why dost Thou furnish an excuse to heretics?' (for maintaining a plurality of deity). 'Write,' replied He; 'whoever wishes to err may err.'"1

Nachman saw that Genesis 1:26 was furnishing "an excuse to heretics" in that it gave them reason to believe and teach "a plurality of deity." His statement against the plurality of the singular deity strongly suggests that he has the trinitarian doctrine in mind. Rabbi Simlai also recognized the difficulty produced by this singular-plural phenomenon, and was at a loss to provide a convincing explanation for it when questioned about it by "heretics."

"Wherever you find a point supporting the heretics, you find the refutation at its side. They [the heretics] asked him again: 'What is meant by, AND GOD SAID: LET US MAKE MAN?' 'Read what follows,' replied he: 'not, "And gods created War@b=Y!w^ [plural verb] man" is written here, but "And God created ar*b=Y!w^ [singular verb]' (Genesis 1:27). When they [the heretics] went out his disciples said to him: 'Them you have dismissed with a mere makeshift, but how will you answer us?"2

Here, he basically blew some smoke at the "heretics." They had questioned him about why Genesis 1:26 uses a plural noun with the singular verb conjugation, and he responded with a non-answer where he simply assumes the "elohim" to be singular (simply impossible) and joins it with the singular verb in v. 27, without any explanation as to why the "elohim" in v. 27 was any different than that in v. 26. His pupils recognized the deficiency of his response.


Uniplurality in the Hebrew Scriptures
Click to expand...

Persons is not my term, its the trinitarian term, it's the actual trinitarian Creed.

I HAVE explained many reasons given, there are at least 4, I gave a bunch of examples and arugments all of which you totally ignored.
 
RGacky3 said:
Persons is not my term, its the trinitarian term, it's the actual trinitarian Creed.

I HAVE explained many reasons given, there are at least 4, I gave a bunch of examples and arugments all of which you totally ignored.
Click to expand...

Though "persons' is being used....it is admittedly not an accurate term to describe the Triune God.
That's been explained before.

What reasons? Why don't you enumerate them clearly?
 
tosca1 said:
Though "persons' is being used....it is admittedly not an accurate term to describe the Triune God.
That's been explained before.

What reasons? Why don't you enumerate them clearly?
Click to expand...

If it's not an accurate term, then why is it the one that's used in the Creeds?

Post #163
 
gilbertc1908 said:
i would love a specific reference or citation from the encyclopedia, what is it you are referring to.
Click to expand...


New catholic encyclopedia-1967-volume XIV-pg-299

encyclopedia Americana--1956-vol-XXVII--pg 2941-- no trinity

dictionary of the bible-1965-pg 899--- Trinitarian definitions were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.
 
RGacky3 said:
If it's not an accurate term, then why is it the one that's used in the Creeds?

Post #163
Click to expand...


Many theologians admit that the term "person" is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects/foci found in God.

When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God there are not three entities nor three beings. God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.

The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible, but this does not mean that the concept is not taught there. The word "bible" is not found in the Bible either, but we use it anyway. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all-knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all-powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere" are not found in the Bible either; but we use these words to describe the attributes of God. So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument.


What is the Trinity? | Describe the Trinity | Doctrine of the Trinity | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
 
tosca1 said:
Many theologians admit that the term "person" is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects/foci found in God.

When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God there are not three entities nor three beings. God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.

The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible, but this does not mean that the concept is not taught there. The word "bible" is not found in the Bible either, but we use it anyway. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all-knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all-powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere" are not found in the Bible either; but we use these words to describe the attributes of God. So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument.


What is the Trinity? | Describe the Trinity | Doctrine of the Trinity | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Click to expand...

The Trinity is a doctrine, the "bible" is not a doctrine, scripture being insipired of God IS spelled out clearly in the bible, the Trinity is not.

Anyway post #163 deals With the Genesis plurality nonsense.
 
RGacky3 said:
The Trinity is a doctrine, the "bible" is not a doctrine, scripture being insipired of God IS spelled out clearly in the bible, the Trinity is not.
Click to expand...

Obviously you missed the point.

The term "Bible" is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures.....and yet, we use it! When you hear the word, "Bible," what comes to your mind? What do you think they're referring to?

Same with the concept of the Trinity. The word, "Trinity" is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures...and yet, we use it. It refers to the concept of the Triune God!



Anyway post #163 deals With the Genesis plurality nonsense.
Click to expand...

Like as if your opinion concludes it! :lol:

Well, I'm outa this childish pseudo-discussion with you. Bye.
 
tosca1 said:
1. Obviously you missed the point.

The term "Bible" is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures.....and yet, we use it! When you hear the word, "Bible," what comes to your mind? What do you think they're referring to?

Same with the concept of the Trinity. The word, "Trinity" is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures...and yet, we use it. It refers to the concept of the Triune God!

2. Like as if your opinion concludes it! :lol:
Click to expand...

1. The problem isn't the lack of the WORD Trinity, the problem is the lack of the doctrine of the Trinity, the doctrine of a holy and inspired scripture is spelled out in scriptrue.

2. My arguments stand against Your Genesis 1 nonsense .... the use of Elohim (plural) doesn't at all indicate a plurality of persons (or identities whatever you want to Call it) in God, and I explained why.
 
RGacky3 said:
1. The problem isn't the lack of the WORD Trinity, the problem is the lack of the doctrine of the Trinity, the doctrine of a holy and inspired scripture is spelled out in scriptrue.

2. My arguments stand against Your Genesis 1 nonsense .... the use of Elohim (plural) doesn't at all indicate a plurality of persons (or identities whatever you want to Call it) in God, and I explained why.
Click to expand...

Blah-blah-blah....


Aside from the arguments presented about Jesus and God as One (throughout this board), you can also add our own one-on-one debate to your materials for review.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/true-debates/188030-true-debate-tosca1-vs-rgacky3.html


Not to be confused that I somehow intend to pursue this any further with you....because, I won't.
You're simply ignoring the given evidences and you just keep spouting off the same nonsense!
 
tosca1 said:
Blah-blah-blah....


Aside from the arguments presented about Jesus and God as One (throughout this board), you can also add our own one-on-one debate to your materials for review.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/true-debates/188030-true-debate-tosca1-vs-rgacky3.html


Not to be confused that I somehow intend to pursue this any further with you....because, I won't.
You're simply ignoring the given evidences and you just keep spouting off the same nonsense!
Click to expand...

I'm not ignoring it, I took on the Genesis 1 argument, and refuted it .... :)
 
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