Christianity a mystery religion?

It is clear that the Pharisees on this forum have only a rudimentary, literal, and concrete notion of Christianity. This thread is not intended to appeal to them. There are others who know that Christ was an Essene and an initiate into the mystery religion of His day. Christ was teaching mysteries every day. He prefaced many of his teachings with, 'I show you a mystery' and said only those with an ear would hear. He admonished his followers to 'ask, seek, and knock' and promised that what they seek would be opened unto them. This thread is intended to appeal to the seekers amongst the DF denizens, those with an ear, those who ask, seek, and knock. I will be very interested to see what I get back after casting this out into the waters.

In the ancient mystery religion, fire was important. There is a legend that the initiates could create a lamp with an ever burning light, a light which started with oil, but the changed and took fuel from the air, never having to be replenished. There are stories of such lamps having been found in ancient tombs. Also, one is said to have burned for 120 years in the tomb of Christian Rosencrantz, the founder of Rosicrucianism. Magic was a part of the ancient religions and was also a part of Christ's ministry even to the point of raising the dead. Even a disciple raised the dead. Do you have the stomach for a thread like this. It is not for the faint of heart! If you do, enter and discuss. If you cannot contribute to the discussion, please have the common courtesy to not disrupt the spirit of this thread.

Here goes:

Were the Rosicrucians familiar with the secrets of eternal light? It would seem so. When the tomb of Christian Rosenkreuz, alchemist and founder of the Rosacrucian Order was opened 120 years after his death, a shining lamp was found inside.
Another interesting case worth mentioning occurred in England where a mysterious and most unusual tomb was opened. It was believed that the sepulcher was of a Rosicrucian. A man, who discovered the tomb, noticed a burning lamp hanging from the ceiling, lighting up the underground chamber. As the man took some steps forward, certain part of the floor moved with his weight. At once, a seated figure in armour started to move. The figure rose to its feet and hit the lamp with some sort of a weapon. The precious lamp was destroyed. The goal had been accomplished; the lamp's substance remained a secret.

Read more: The Mystery Of Ancient Ever-Burning Lamps - MessageToEagle.com

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In France, near Grenoble, in the mid-seventeenth century a young Swiss soldier accidentally stumbled upon the entrance of an ancient tomb. Unfortunately, for the young man he did not discover the golden treasures that he thought might be hidden inside. Still, his surprise must have been just as big when he was confronted with a burning glass lamp. Du Praz, that was the soldier's name removed the mysterious lamp from the sealed grave and carried it to a monastery. He showed his remarkable discovery to the astonished monks and the lamp remained at the monastery. It burned for several months until an elderly monk dropped it and it was destroyed.

Certain discoveries indicate that the ancients wanted to preserve their knowledge secret.
In his notes to St. Augustine, 1610, Ludovicus Vives writes about a lamp that was found in his father's time, in 1580 A.D. According to the inscription, the lamp was burning for 1,500 years, however when it was touched it fell into pieces. Obviously, Ludovicus Vives did not share some of St. Augustine's views. He considered perpetual lamps to be an invention of very wise and skilled men and not the devil.


Read more: The Mystery Of Ancient Ever-Burning Lamps - MessageToEagle.com

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What the hell are you talking about? Srsly. Magic lamps?

TobyOne said:

What the hell are you talking about? Srsly. Magic lamps?

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I take it that you are not a seeker.

Jesus said he came to bring fire into the world and wished it was already kindled. Luke 12:49 Then on the day of Pentecost when the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurred, there were 'tongues of fire' above the heads of those filled with the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:1-4.

Fire it seems, was important and significant in Jesus' ministry. Who knew?

More?

Well, within reason. But I see no value in magic lamps and as far as Christianity goes - why Jesus would bother . Also, Jesus as an Essene is not a done deal - although it is an interesting theory.

Maenad said:

I take it that you are not a seeker.

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TobyOne said:

Well, within reason. But I see no value in magic lamps and as far as Christianity goes - why Jesus would bother . Also, Jesus as an Essene is not a done deal - although it is an interesting theory.

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OK, then explain the 'tongues of fire' above the heads of those filled with the Holy Spirit? Is that not a 'magic lamp' of sorts?

If you ever study the mystery religion of Jesus' day, it will be clear to you that he was an initiate. I'm not arguing that point so drop it. For now, the discussion is about the ancient and sacred nature of fire, which is a part of the Christian religion.

I take it you're not big on the burning bush either, also a type of magic lamp.

Or the pillar of fire that held the Children of Israel out of Egypt, also a type of magic lamp.

I will submit also that references exist in the history of remote ages to suggest the mysterious light now so freely handled and produced by electricity was not unknown to the ancient sages. Numa, King of Rome, studied electricity, and left pupils of his art, of whom we are told was his successor Tullus Hostilius, who was destroyed whilst endeavouring to draw down from heaven and coerce the electric fluid from thunder clouds, or, as they said, front Jupiter Tonans. Eliphaz Levi remarks-"It is certain that the Zoroastrian Magi had means of producing and directing electric power unknown to us."-"Historie de la Magie," p. 57. Mediaeval scholars have fully debated several points in regard to ever-burning lamps, but in all cases without arriving at any definite result; much erudition has been expended on the question whether a lamp found burning on breaking open a tomb was not ignited by the admission of air, and had not been actually burning until it was disturbed; there is modern evidence in favor of this view, from the analogy of some chemical experiments, as, for example, phosphorised oil is invisible in the dark when enclosed in a sealed vial, when this is opened a light pours forth. On the other hand, evidence exists that some of the lamps actually paled and went out when the cavern in which they were found was opened, as a fine metal wire made white-hot by electricity in a sealed glass vacuumed ceases to shine when the glass is broken; others again burned on and could hardly be extinguished by water or other means, until the arrangement of the lamp was broken.

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Rosicrucian Thoughts on the Ever-Burning Lamps of the Ancients.

TobyOne said:

Well, within reason. But I see no value in magic lamps and as far as Christianity goes - why Jesus would bother . Also, Jesus as an Essene is not a done deal - although it is an interesting theory.

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I guess you're not big on these magic lamps either:

Hebrews 12:29 ESV / 84 helpful votes

For our God is a consuming fire.

Luke 3:16 ESV / 77 helpful votes

John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Psalm 104:4 ESV / 62 helpful votes

He makes his messengers winds, his ministers a flaming fire.

2 Chronicles 7:1 ESV / 43 helpful votes

As soon as Solomon finished his prayer, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple.

Jeremiah 20:9 ESV / 40 helpful votes

If I say, “I will not mention him, or speak any more in his name,” there is in my heart as it were a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I am weary with holding it in, and I cannot.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 ESV / 38 helpful votes

For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Amos 1:10 ESV / 31 helpful votes

So I will send a fire upon the wall of Tyre, and it shall devour her strongholds.”

Jeremiah 23:29 ESV / 29 helpful votes

Is not my word like fire, declares the Lord, and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?

Acts 2:3 ESV / 24 helpful votes

And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.

Revelation 20:9 ESV / 20 helpful votes

And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,

Luke 12:49 ESV / 20 helpful votes

“I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled!

Exodus 3:2 ESV / 20 helpful votes

And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed.

Revelation 21:8 ESV / 19 helpful votes

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

1 Corinthians 3:15-17 ESV / 18 helpful votes

If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

Acts 2:1-15 ESV / 12 helpful votes

When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.

Exodus 40:38 ESV / 12 helpful votes

For the cloud of the Lord was on the tabernacle by day, and fire was in it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel throughout all their journeys.

2 Kings 1:9-12 ESV / 11 helpful votes

Then the king sent to him a captain of fifty men with his fifty. He went up to Elijah, who was sitting on the top of a hill, and said to him, “O man of God, the king says, ‘Come down.’” But Elijah answered the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty. Again the king sent to him another captain of fifty men with his fifty. And he answered and said to him, “O man of God, this is the king's order, ‘Come down quickly!’” But Elijah answered them, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

Matthew 3:11 ESV / 10 helpful votes

“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Isaiah 33:14 ESV / 10 helpful votes

The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: “Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?”

Exodus 19:18 ESV / 9 helpful votes

Now Mount Sinai was wrapped in smoke because the Lord had descended on it in fire. The smoke of it went up like the smoke of a kiln, and the whole mountain trembled greatly.

Exodus 13:21 ESV / 9 helpful votes

And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead them along the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, that they might travel by day and by night.

Revelation 20:1-15 ESV / 7 helpful votes

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

Daniel 7:9-10 ESV / 7 helpful votes

“As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.

Isaiah 6:6 ESV / 7 helpful votes

Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar.

1 Kings 18:24 ESV / 7 helpful votes

And you call upon the name of your god, and I will call upon the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, he is God.” And all the people answered, “It is well spoken.”

Exodus 14:24 ESV / 7 helpful votes

And in the morning watch the Lord in the pillar of fire and of cloud looked down on the Egyptian forces and threw the Egyptian forces into a panic,

Or these:


Exodus 13:22 ESV / 7 helpful votes

The pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night did not depart from before the people.
2 Peter 3:10 ESV / 6 helpful votes

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 ESV / 6 helpful votes

In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Matthew 18:8 ESV / 6 helpful votes

And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

Matthew 13:50 ESV / 6 helpful votes

And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Amos 1:7 ESV / 6 helpful votes

So I will send a fire upon the wall of Gaza, and it shall devour her strongholds.

Amos 1:4 ESV / 6 helpful votes

So I will send a fire upon the house of Hazael, and it shall devour the strongholds of Ben-hadad.

Isaiah 6:7 ESV / 6 helpful votes

And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”

1 Chronicles 21:26 ESV / 6 helpful votes

And David built there an altar to the Lord and presented burnt offerings and peace offerings and called on the Lord, and the Lord answered him with fire from heaven upon the altar of burnt offering.

1 Kings 18:38 ESV / 6 helpful votes

Then the fire of the Lord fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Numbers 16:35 ESV / 6 helpful votes

And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men offering the incense.

Numbers 9:15-23 ESV / 6 helpful votes

On the day that the tabernacle was set up, the cloud covered the tabernacle, the tent of the testimony. And at evening it was over the tabernacle like the appearance of fire until morning. So it was always: the cloud covered it by day and the appearance of fire by night. And whenever the cloud lifted from over the tent, after that the people of Israel set out, and in the place where the cloud settled down, there the people of Israel camped. At the command of the Lord the people of Israel set out, and at the command of the Lord they camped. As long as the cloud rested over the tabernacle, they remained in camp. Even when the cloud continued over the tabernacle many days, the people of Israel kept the charge of the Lord and did not set out.

Matthew 25:41 ESV / 5 helpful votes

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Jeremiah 21:14 ESV / 5 helpful votes

I will punish you according to the fruit of your deeds, declares the Lord; I will kindle a fire in her forest, and it shall devour all that is around her.”

Job 1:16 ESV / 5 helpful votes

While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you.”

Numbers 28:6 ESV / 5 helpful votes

It is a regular burnt offering, which was ordained at Mount Sinai for a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the Lord.

Revelation 9:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes

He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.

Hebrews 1:7 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.”

1 Thessalonians 5:19 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Do not quench the Spirit.

Mark 9:43-45 ESV / 4 helpful votes

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 25:46 ESV / 4 helpful votes

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Malachi 3:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes

But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.

Amos 2:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes

So I will send a fire upon Moab, and it shall devour the strongholds of Kerioth, and Moab shall die amid uproar, amid shouting and the sound of the trumpet;

Amos 1:14 ESV / 4 helpful votes

So I will kindle a fire in the wall of Rabbah, and it shall devour her strongholds, with shouting on the day of battle, with a tempest in the day of the whirlwind;

Amos 1:12 ESV / 4 helpful votes

So I will send a fire upon Teman, and it shall devour the strongholds of Bozrah.”

Jeremiah 29:22 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Because of them this curse shall be used by all the exiles from Judah in Babylon: “The Lord make you like Zedekiah and Ahab, whom the king of Babylon roasted in the fire,”

Isaiah 5:24 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Therefore, as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and as dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root will be as rottenness, and their blossom go up like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord of hosts, and have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 1:1-31 ESV / 4 helpful votes

The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth; for the Lord has spoken: “Children have I reared and brought up, but they have rebelled against me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib, but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.” Ah, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, offspring of evildoers, children who deal corruptly! They have forsaken the Lord, they have despised the Holy One of Israel, they are utterly estranged. Why will you still be struck down? Why will you continue to rebel? The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

Or these:


Deuteronomy 9:1-29 ESV / 4 helpful votes

“Hear, O Israel: you are to cross over the Jordan today, to go in to dispossess nations greater and mightier than yourselves, cities great and fortified up to heaven, a people great and tall, the sons of the Anakim, whom you know, and of whom you have heard it said, ‘Who can stand before the sons of Anak?’ Know therefore today that he who goes over before you as a consuming fire is the Lord your God. He will destroy them and subdue them before you. So you shall drive them out and make them perish quickly, as the Lord has promised you. “Do not say in your heart, after the Lord your God has thrust them out before you, ‘It is because of my righteousness that the Lord has brought me in to possess this land,’ whereas it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is driving them out before you. Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations the Lord your God is driving them out from before you, and that he may confirm the word that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Leviticus 21:9 ESV / 4 helpful votes

And the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by whoring, profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire.

Exodus 9:24 ESV / 4 helpful votes

There was hail and fire flashing continually in the midst of the hail, very heavy hail, such as had never been in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.

Mark 9:43 ESV / 3 helpful votes

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Daniel 3:6 ESV / 3 helpful votes

And whoever does not fall down and worship shall immediately be cast into a burning fiery furnace.”

Daniel 1:1-21 ESV / 3 helpful votes

In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the vessels of the house of God. And he brought them to the land of Shinar, to the house of his god, and placed the vessels in the treasury of his god. Then the king commanded Ashpenaz, his chief eunuch, to bring some of the people of Israel, both of the royal family and of the nobility, youths without blemish, of good appearance and skillful in all wisdom, endowed with knowledge, understanding learning, and competent to stand in the king's palace, and to teach them the literature and language of the Chaldeans. The king assigned them a daily portion of the food that the king ate, and of the wine that he drank. They were to be educated for three years, and at the end of that time they were to stand before the king.

Jeremiah 20:1-18 ESV / 3 helpful votes

Now Pashhur the priest, the son of Immer, who was chief officer in the house of the Lord, heard Jeremiah prophesying these things. Then Pashhur beat Jeremiah the prophet, and put him in the stocks that were in the upper Benjamin Gate of the house of the Lord. The next day, when Pashhur released Jeremiah from the stocks, Jeremiah said to him, “The Lord does not call your name Pashhur, but Terror On Every Side. For thus says the Lord: Behold, I will make you a terror to yourself and to all your friends. They shall fall by the sword of their enemies while you look on. And I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon. He shall carry them captive to Babylon, and shall strike them down with the sword. Moreover, I will give all the wealth of the city, all its gains, all its prized belongings, and all the treasures of the kings of Judah into the hand of their enemies, who shall plunder them and seize them and carry them to Babylon.

1 Kings 16:18 ESV / 3 helpful votes

And when Zimri saw that the city was taken, he went into the citadel of the king's house and burned the king's house over him with fire and died,

Genesis 19:1-38 ESV / 3 helpful votes

The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth and said, “My lords, please turn aside to your servant's house and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you may rise up early and go on your way.” They said, “No; we will spend the night in the town square.” But he pressed them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house. And he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.”

Genesis 15:17 ESV / 3 helpful votes

When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.

Acts 5:1-42 ESV / 2 helpful votes

But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and with his wife's knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it.

Psalm 1:1-6 ESV / 2 helpful votes

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. The wicked are not so, but are like chaff that the wind drives away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;

2 Kings 16:3 ESV / 2 helpful votes

But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel. He even burned his son as an offering, according to the despicable practices of the nations whom the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.

2 Kings 2:11 ESV / 2 helpful votes

And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah

Lots of references to and symbolism of fire magical and otherwise in the Bible. Guess you aren't big on them. Oh well. Any seekers out there who will take up this discussion? Any idea what the magic lamps found in tombs actually were?

Whatever. Magic lamps and fire. I just don't see any relevance or usefulness. Fire was the most powerful physical force at the time all of this stuff was written so it's no surprise that it is used as a powerful symbol. I won't comment on the literalness of OT narratives but even in the NT, a physical manifestation of power such as seen at Pentecost would probably have been described as fire by a 1st century writer.

This all seems very pagan or even pantheistic. Fire as a christian symbol seems to have been replaced by water - baptism and cleansing. So maybe you should be chasing waterfalls. None of the sacraments in the catholic rites involve fire - and I haven't heard of any protestant use of fire either. There is that guy who charges people money to do a fire walk ...

Maenad said:

OK, then explain the 'tongues of fire' above the heads of those filled with the Holy Spirit? Is that not a 'magic lamp' of sorts?

If you ever study the mystery religion of Jesus' day, it will be clear to you that he was an initiate. I'm not arguing that point so drop it. For now, the discussion is about the ancient and sacred nature of fire, which is a part of the Christian religion.

I take it you're not big on the burning bush either, also a type of magic lamp.

Or the pillar of fire that held the Children of Israel out of Egypt, also a type of magic lamp.

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Wonders of Antiquity

IT was a common practice among the early Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans to seal lighted lamps in the sepulchers of their dead as offerings to the God of Death. Possibly it was also believed that the deceased could use these lights in finding his way through the Valley of the Shadow. Later as the custom became generally established, not only actual lamps but miniatures of them in terra cotta were buried with the dead. Some of the lamps were enclosed in circular vessels for protection; and instances have been recorded in which the original oil was found in them, in a perfect state of preservation, after more than 2,000 years. There is ample proof that many of these lamps were burning when the sepulchers were sealed, and it has been declared that they were still burning when the vaults were opened hundreds of years later. The possibility of preparing a fuel which would renew itself as rapidly as it was consumed has been a source of considerable controversy among mediæval authors. After due consideration of the evidence at hand, it seems well within the range of possibility that the ancient priest-chemists did manufacture lamps that burned, if not indefinitely, at least for considerable periods of time.

Numerous authorities have written on the subject of ever-burning lamps. W. Wynn Westcott estimates the number of writers who have given the subject consideration as more than 150, and H. P. Blavatsky as 173. While conclusions reached by different authors are at variance, a majority admit the existence of these phenomenal lamps. Only a few maintained that the lamps would burn forever, but many were willing to concede that they might remain alight for several centuries without replenishment of the fuel. Some considered the so-called perpetual lights as mere artifices of the crafty pagan priests, while a great many, admitting that the lamps actually burned, made the sweeping assertion that the Devil was using this apparent miracle to ensnare the credulous and thereby lead their souls to perdition.

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Secret Teachings of All Ages: Wonders of Antiquity

Ever-burning lamps have been discovered in all parts of the world. Not only the Mediterranean countries but also India, Tibet, China, and South America have contributed records of lights which burned continuously without fuel. The examples which follow were selected at random from the imposing list of perpetual lamps found in different ages.

Plutarch wrote of a lamp that burned over the door of a temple to Jupiter Ammon; the priests declared that it had remained alight for centuries without fuel.

St. Augustine described a perpetual lamp, guarded in a temple in Egypt sacred to Venus, which neither wind nor water could extinguish. He believed it to be the work of the Devil.

An ever-burning lamp was found at Edessa, or Antioch, during the reign of the Emperor Justinian. It was in a niche over the city gate, elaborately enclosed to protect it from the elements. The date upon it proved that the lamp had been burning for more than 500 years. It was destroyed by soldiers.

During the early Middle Ages a lamp was found in England which had burned since the third century after Christ. The monument containing it was believed to be the tomb of the father of Constantine the Great.

The Lantern of Pallas was discovered near Rome in A.D. 1401. It was found in the sepulcher of Pallas, son of Evander, immortalized by Virgil in his Æneid. The lamp was placed at the head of the body and had burned with a steady glow for more than 2,000 years.

In A.D. 1550 on the island of Nesis, in the Bay of Naples, a magnificent marble vault was opened in which was found a lamp still alight which had been placed there before the beginning of the Christian Era.

Pausanias described a beautiful golden lamp in the temple of Minerva which burned steadily for a year without refueling or having the wick trimmed. The ceremony of filling the lamp took place annually, and time was measured by the ceremony.

According to the Fama Fraternitatis, the crypt of Christian Rosencreutz when opened 120 years after his death was found to be brilliantly illuminated by a perpetual lamp suspended from the ceiling.

Numa Pompilius, King of Rome and magician of considerable power, caused a perpetual light to burn in the dome of a temple he had created in honor of an elemental being.

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Secret Teachings of All Ages: Wonders of Antiquity

TobyOne said:

Whatever. Magic lamps and fire. I just don't see any relevance or usefulness. Fire was the most powerful physical force at the time all of this stuff was written so it's no surprise that it is used as a powerful symbol. I won't comment on the literalness of OT narratives but even in the NT, a physical manifestation of power such as seen at Pentecost would probably have been described as fire by a 1st century writer.

This all seems very pagan or even pantheistic. Fire as a christian symbol seems to have been replaced by water - baptism and cleansing. So maybe you should be chasing waterfalls. None of the sacraments in the catholic rites involve fire - and I haven't heard of any protestant use of fire either. There is that guy who charges people money to do a fire walk ...

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The Bible is full of fire. I just posted all the quotes from the Bible about fire. What about the burning bush? Pagan? Or the pillar of fire of the exodus? Pagan? Really? Tongues of fire over the head of those filled with the Holy Spirit? Pagan?

I think if you look carefully, you will see numerous references to fire in the NT. Take your time. I can wait. Looks like we're going to be talking about fire for a while.

Maenad said:

It is clear that the Pharisees on this forum have only a rudimentary, literal, and concrete notion of Christianity. This thread is not intended to appeal to them. There are others who know that Christ was an Essene and an initiate into the mystery religion of His day. Christ was teaching mysteries every day. He prefaced many of his teachings with, 'I show you a mystery' and said only those with an ear would hear. He admonished his followers to 'ask, seek, and knock' and promised that what they seek would be opened unto them. This thread is intended to appeal to the seekers amongst the DF denizens, those with an ear, those who ask, seek, and knock. I will be very interested to see what I get back after casting this out into the waters.

In the ancient mystery religion, fire was important. There is a legend that the initiates could create a lamp with an ever burning light, a light which started with oil, but the changed and took fuel from the air, never having to be replenished. There are stories of such lamps having been found in ancient tombs. Also, one is said to have burned for 120 years in the tomb of Christian Rosencrantz, the founder of Rosicrucianism. Magic was a part of the ancient religions and was also a part of Christ's ministry even to the point of raising the dead. Even a disciple raised the dead. Do you have the stomach for a thread like this. It is not for the faint of heart! If you do, enter and discuss. If you cannot contribute to the discussion, please have the common courtesy to not disrupt the spirit of this thread.

Here goes:

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Jesus was clearly a Pharisee, his teaching was in that tradition, he quoted the Sages who defined that movement all the time. Even his disagreements with the Pharisees in the Gospels are partly seen as typical Jewish practice at the time. What isn't is the way the Christian Bible talks about them after the 1st century. The edits to gospels portray the Pharisees very different then what we see in historical accounts. So......

Maenad said:

Jesus said he came to bring fire into the world and wished it was already kindled. Luke 12:49 Then on the day of Pentecost when the baptism with the Holy Spirit occurred, there were 'tongues of fire' above the heads of those filled with the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:1-4.
6).
Fire it seems, was important and significant in Jesus' ministry. Who knew?

More?

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He warned people to repent of their sins (Luke 13:3). And he said no one comes to the Father except through him (John 14:6). Make sure those are in your teachings since it looks like you're attempting to bring us Gospel truths.

As I explained, its not surprising the bible is full of fire since at the time it was the most powerful force around. The bible is probably full of a lot of things if you parse it. Swords? Water? (as I already stated), Lambs? etc.

I'll burn some incense and contemplate the "mystery" of fire.

Maenad said:

The Bible is full of fire. I just posted all the quotes from the Bible about fire. What about the burning bush? Pagan? Or the pillar of fire of the exodus? Pagan? Really? Tongues of fire over the head of those filled with the Holy Spirit? Pagan?

I think if you look carefully, you will see numerous references to fire in the NT. Take your time. I can wait. Looks like we're going to be talking about fire for a while.

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TobyOne said:

What the hell are you talking about? Srsly.

Magic lamps?

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Magic lamps and those who use them to entice people into their group.

This seems to have more to do with the Order Rosae Crucis than with Christianity per se... but I'll play along.


Has anyone managed to duplicate the ever-burning lamp in recent centuries, and documented same in a credible manner (ie with non-Order witness of credible repute)?

What's so "mysterious" about fire?

It is important in the ancient times! You cook with fire. You draw warmth with fire. You have light through fire!
You make weapons with fire!

Where do you think fire came from?


Why do you think it so ....ooooooooh...... "mysterious," for fire to be used as an analogy, or part of the teachings?


And what's this obsession about the magic lamp? You connect Jesus with Aladdin? :lol:

Goshin said:

This seems to have more to do with the Order Rosae Crucis than with Christianity per se... but I'll play along.


Has anyone managed to duplicate the ever-burning lamp in recent centuries, and documented same in a credible manner (ie with non-Order witness of credible repute)?

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Yes, one was said to have been burning in the tomb of Christian Rosencrantz for 120 years. I haven't read all the esoterica out there as of yet and will likely not live long enough to do so. However the directions for such a lamp are said to be in the book Isis Unveiled.

And I must disagree (respectfully of course since you are a mod) that this is all about the Order Rosae Crucis just because that has been mentioned early in the discussion. There is far more to be discussed, I merely thought the discussion of fire, and its qualities as they relate to humans in general and Christians in particular was a good shoving off point since it is so widely discussed in both the Bible and in other sources of esoterica. Also, I am hoping to stimulate the curiosity of others to the point that they to will become seekers, after all Jesus NEVER said 'stick with the King James Bible.' No, that was the government that did that, and, sadly, Christians have been missing much of the point ever since.

Another modern day phenomenon involving fire:

Orthodox tradition holds that the Holy Fire is a miracle that happens annually on the day preceding Orthodox Easter, in which a blue light emanates within Jesus Christ's tomb (usually rising from the marble slab covering the stone bed believed to be that upon which Jesus' body was placed for burial) now in the Holy Sepulchre, which eventually forms a column containing a form of fire, from which candles are lit, which are then used to light the candles of the clergy and pilgrims in attendance. The fire is also said to spontaneously light other lamps and candles around the church.[1][2][3] Pilgrims and clergy claim that the Holy Fire does not burn them.[3][4]

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Holy Fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Beyond that humans themselves are self contained dynamos, creating and burning their own particular type of 'fire.' The burning of incenses is used in many religious ceremonies with the fragrant smoke it produces representing the soul of man ascending to God.

Trust me, fire is not the only concept that I will throw out in this thread. It is merely the first, and the surface has not even been scratched.

Those ever burning lamps were placed in tombs to light the way of the diseased. So, given that, what do you make of Jesus' statement, 'I am the light of the world.' In His day, what produced light except fire? Jesus was well versed in the esoterica of his day and he makes reference to it throughout the Bible so even if the only source you accept is the KJV, you are reading a lot of Christian mysticism and completely missing most of it. Jesus ministry was quite a mystical event from the words he spoke in mysteries, to the miracles he performed, to his ascension into heaven. I don't believe the esoterica to which Jesus referred has been lost so much as it is being ignored. Christians have become much too pragmatic. I wonder what a modern day Christian would do if he/she saw even ONE of the miracles of Jesus up close and personal. Probably faint dead away!

Anyway, my next foray into this topic will be Isis unveiled, as I have it on order as we speak. I will look for the way to make those ever burning lamps. There will be more later today. I have a lot to do today, but will try to get something of substance into this thread.

I do appreciate all who make the attempt.

And I should warn you all that attempts at baiting and derailing will be summarily ignored.

Maenad said:

It This thread is intended to appeal to the seekers amongst the DF denizens, those with an ear, those who ask, seek, and knock. I will be very interested to see what I get back after casting this out into the waters.

Do you have the stomach for a thread like this. It is not for the faint of heart! If you do, enter and discuss. If you cannot contribute to the discussion, please have the common courtesy to not disrupt the spirit of this thread.

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Having always been the sort to seek, rather than accept at face value, these ideas aren't unknown to me. That being said, my suspicion is that Jesus himself probably had a rather small audience who even entertained this type of thought, and took it to heart, and Christianity, as we currently recognize it, was a concept which really came into being later, as a way for the early church to gain power and influence geopolitically. Not many people really have the stomach to be a mystic, as it often gets one branded as a heretic.

lizzie said:

Having always been the sort to seek, rather than accept at face value, these ideas aren't unknown to me. That being said, my suspicion is that Jesus himself probably had a rather small audience who even entertained this type of thought, and took it to heart, and Christianity, as we currently recognize it, was a concept which really came into being later, as a way for the early church to gain power and influence geopolitically. Not many people really have the stomach to be a mystic, as it often gets one branded as a heretic.

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You are absolutely correct. The mystical teachings of Jesus which made it into the KJ Bible are frequently either glossed over or completely ignored by our religious leaders. I myself, finding myself in a VERY tough situation, was invited by my pastor for some much needed counseling. It was during these sessions that I learned enough to begin my own search. Much of my life, I've had heavy responsibilities, and so seeking was on the back burner, but I did as much as I could with the load I had to bear.

There is a place in the Bible that says there aren't enough books to hold all the teachings of Jesus. Also, most people think he had 12 disciples, but he had 120, it says plainly in the Bible that 120 met in the upper room for His teaching. They came secretly and were careful to make sure they were not followed by the authorities. Jesus really shook them up. Clearly. But what is really the great loss in the whole thing is that modern Christianity is nothing more than this boxy, concrete thing which doesn't even come close to the spirit of what he was teaching. Jesus was teaching the Hermetic principles, Buddhism, Hinduism, and he even validated Judaism but tempered it all with his one 'commandment' to love one another.

It is clear that Jesus could break the laws of the universe - raising the dead, healing the sick, walking on water, rising from the dead himself. There is a book called 'the book of Judas' which seemingly tries to rehabilitate Judas and says he was not betraying Jesus, but trying to save Him. LOL. However, that book also says that at the last supper, Jesus pulled Judas aside and told him the 'secrets of the universe.' Now that Judas knew the secrets of the universe, what use would he have for Jesus. It was, IMO, the perfect motive for murder. But something happened. It didn't work out so well for Judas as he never practiced any of those secrets, rather he suicided. It was the other disciples who did the miracles of Jesus even raising the dead. I have to wonder, how over the millennia did these powers become lost to us? Or were we just not worthy to have them? Certainly, through modern science we are trying to recover those powers, even the power to raise the dead, evidenced by the people who put themselves into a frozen state (cryogenics) against the day science learns how to resurrect them. Humans desire the knowledge that has been lost over the ages. And we are searching for it. Will, like Judas, our own self destruction be the price we have to pay for having those secrets?