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Spotlight on.....BUDDHISM

sangha said:
That advice is useless to those intent on taking snippets and bending them to support one's own beliefs.
Click to expand...
isn't it always as such? to rip asunder knowledge is easier then to build up careful understanding. what good does it do one to just tear it apart?
 
Risky Thicket said:
Not really. I don't remember my previous lives. How about you?
Click to expand...

What is the point of previous lives if you can't remember them? Wouldn't it be better to just be born once and remember your life than to be born many times over and forget everything?
 
annata said:
not reincarnation of self, of the karma
karma is "sum total of thoughts and actions" .Think of it like a spool of thread with an imperfection in it ( like it was broken and re-tied)
. No matter what you do afterwards, that imperfection remains.

Live the perfected life, there isn't any imperfections, and nirvannah is achieved. the karma is "recycled" - not the self
Click to expand...

But how would you know perfection if all the lessons of previous lives were lost? You would never get to the point where everything starts to make sense because you are always starting over with nothing to build upon.
 
Risky Thicket said:
Not really. I don't remember my previous lives. How about you?
Click to expand...


No, I'm not talking about your previous lives. I'm talking about your present.

Okay, I think we misunderstand each other, or maybe we're not referring to the same thing at all.
Let me try to explain what I'm saying.


You said: Buddhism is about living in the present, living in NOW.


And I'm trying to associate that with the first noble truth: the irrefutable fact that life is suffering, with the third and fourth noble truth which are:

The third truth is that suffering can be overcome and happiness can be attained; that true happiness and contentment are possible. lf we give up useless craving and learn to live each day at a time (not dwelling in the past or the imagined future) then we can become happy and free. We then have more time and energy to help others. This is Nirvana.

The fourth truth is that the Noble 8-fold Path is the path which leads to the end of suffering.

A Basic Buddhism Guide: 5 Minute Introduction


Now, according to Buddha, reaching Nibbana (nirvana) - the third and fourth noble truths - takes a long gradual process.

This is how he described it:

The Buddha made clear many times that Awakening does not occur like a bolt out of the blue to the untrained and unprepared mind. Rather, it culminates a long journey of many stages:[1]
Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.
The Buddha's teachings are infused with this notion of gradual development. His method of "gradual instruction" (anupubbi-katha), which appears in various forms in countless suttas, always follows the same arc: he guides newcomers from first principles through progressively more advanced teachings, all the way to the fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths and the full realization of nibbana:

Here is the Buddha's six-stage gradual training in more detail:

Dhamma


Did you see the six-stage gradual training in details?

----------------------------

So when you told me that you're at the level wherein it'd take hundreds of reincarnation to reach nirvana (the third and the fourth noble truths).....I wonder how you manage the present?
So, yes I'm talking about your present life.

And you said, Buddhism is about living the present. Yes, you'll live the present - along with the pain and sufferings attached to that present.


Each present life you live, you'll go through the same painful process of living life....and how can it be any better for you if you have not reached that third and fourth noble truths?


It doesn't help either that you don't remember your previous life! It'd feel you're always on square one!
How do you know you're not in that same level in your previous life?

And on top of that, there's no guarantee at all that you'll ever reach that state where there wouldn't be sufferings anymore.

Do you see what I mean?
 
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I could see the similarity of the third noble truth with Christianity.

The only possible route to an unconditioned happiness lies in renunciation, in turning away from the sensual realm, by trading the familiar, lower forms of happiness for something far more rewarding and noble.
 
annata said:
not reincarnation of self, of the karma
karma is "sum total of thoughts and actions" .Think of it like a spool of thread with an imperfection in it ( like it was broken and re-tied)
. No matter what you do afterwards, that imperfection remains.

Live the perfected life, there isn't any imperfections, and nirvannah is achieved. the karma is "recycled" - not the self
Click to expand...

Is this explanation below the same thing you're describing?


After we die our very subtle mind leaves our body and enters the intermediate state, or ‘bardo’ in Tibetan. In this subtle dream-like state we experience many different visions that arise from the karmic potentials that were activated at the time of our death. These visions may be pleasant or terrifying depending on the karma that ripens. Once these karmic seeds have fully ripened they impel us to take rebirth without choice.

It is important to understand that as ordinary samsaric beings we do not choose our rebirth but are reborn solely in accordance with our karma. If good karma ripens we are reborn in a fortunate state, either as a human or a god, but if negative karma ripens we are reborn in a lower state, as an animal, a hungry ghost, or a hell being. It is as if we are blown to our future lives by the winds of our karma, sometimes ending up in higher rebirths, sometimes in lower rebirths.

Buddhism Beliefs | About Buddhism
 
Henrin said:
But how would you know perfection if all the lessons of previous lives were lost? You would never get to the point where everything starts to make sense because you are always starting over with nothing to build upon.
Click to expand...

depending on your past life you either "advance" or "regress" on the Wheel of Life. You can only break free of cyclical rebirth as human, only humans can become ...enlightened...(Bodhi)..

buddhist_life.jpg


you can read more here. Buddhism
 
Henrin said:
What is the point of previous lives if you can't remember them? Wouldn't it be better to just be born once and remember your life than to be born many times over and forget everything?
Click to expand...

There probably isn't a point but there is a purpose. YOU, ME, anyone are not reincarnated. The energy that is you collective consciousness is reborn. The lessons we have yet to learn are carried forward. We repeat lessons in different forms until we learn them, in this life or in a future life.

Henrin said:
But how would you know perfection if all the lessons of previous lives were lost? You would never get to the point where everything starts to make sense because you are always starting over with nothing to build upon.
Click to expand...

Hopefully, you do have much to build on as you as you tackle your new life.
 
tosca1 said:
Is this explanation below the same thing you're describing?


After we die our very subtle mind leaves our body and enters the intermediate state, or ‘bardo’ in Tibetan. In this subtle dream-like state we experience many different visions that arise from the karmic potentials that were activated at the time of our death. These visions may be pleasant or terrifying depending on the karma that ripens. Once these karmic seeds have fully ripened they impel us to take rebirth without choice.

It is important to understand that as ordinary samsaric beings we do not choose our rebirth but are reborn solely in accordance with our karma. If good karma ripens we are reborn in a fortunate state, either as a human or a god, but if negative karma ripens we are reborn in a lower state, as an animal, a hungry ghost, or a hell being. It is as if we are blown to our future lives by the winds of our karma, sometimes ending up in higher rebirths, sometimes in lower rebirths.

Buddhism Beliefs | About Buddhism
Click to expand...
bardo is the intermediate state, as the mind disintegrates (self) the karmic seeds ripen (unfold -become in the inexorable process of rebirth). as that link describes it.


That is a very good link: Look just above what you write to understand karma -the "law of dependent origination" for rebirth, it is like we know as causation.

This definite relationship between actions and their effects – virtue causing happiness and non-virtue causing suffering – is know as the ‘law of karma’. An understanding of the law of karma is the basis of Buddhist morality.
Click to expand...
 
annata said:
bardo is the intermediate state, as the mind disintegrates (self) the karmic seeds ripen (unfold -become in the inexorable process of rebirth). as that link describes it.

That is a very good link: Look just above what you write to understand karma -the "law of dependent origination" for rebirth, it is like we know as causation.
Click to expand...

If good karma ripens we are reborn in a fortunate state, either as a human or a god, but if negative karma ripens we are reborn in a lower state, as an animal, a hungry ghost, or a hell being.


It talks of physical re-birth. So, it is based on reincarnation.


Karma is a theological concept found in the Buddhist and Hindu religions. It is the idea that how you live your life will determine the quality of life you will have after reincarnation. If you are unselfish, kind, and holy during this lifetime, you will be rewarded by being reincarnated (reborn into a new earthly body) into a pleasant life. However, if you live a life of selfishness and evil, you will be reincarnated into a less-than-pleasant lifestyle. In other words, you reap in the next life what you sow in this one. Karma is based on the theological belief in reincarnation.
The Bible rejects the idea of reincarnation; therefore, it does not support the idea of karma.
Click to expand...
Read more: What does the Bible say about karma?
 
tosca1 said:
It talks of physical re-birth. So, it is based on reincarnation.



Read more: What does the Bible say about karma?
Click to expand...
I am not an authority at all on Hinduism, there are gods/semi gods/ etc. Nor Buddhism for that matter, I struggle to understand too, but if you use a diligent mind, and are willing to spend time , there is nothing mystical about Buddhism.

In fact the Buddha once said " do not believe anything you do not understand" ( semi-quoted)

It is more mystical, and I am not even sure if the karma definition is the same. I appreciate comparative religions it is useful to some extent to see the various ways we look at the same things,

but they are not the same ideas.
 
tosca1 said:
No, I'm not talking about your previous lives. I'm talking about your present.

Okay, I think we misunderstand each other, or maybe we're not referring to the same thing at all.
Let me try to explain what I'm saying.


You said: Buddhism is about living in the present, living in NOW.
Click to expand...

That is part of what Buddhism is. I was responding specifically to your question concerning pessimism.

And I'm trying to associate that with the first noble truth: the irrefutable fact that life is suffering, with the third and fourth noble truth which are:

The third truth is that suffering can be overcome and happiness can be attained; that true happiness and contentment are possible. lf we give up useless craving and learn to live each day at a time (not dwelling in the past or the imagined future) then we can become happy and free. We then have more time and energy to help others. This is Nirvana.
Click to expand...


Yes, that is correct. It is finding peace in being fully in the present. If you are driving a car or washing dishes just drive, just wash. No thinking about anything else. The feel of the steering wheel in your hand, the color of the car next to you. The sound the air makes as it blows in the window or through the air conditioning vent. The smells that waft through as you drive. Not thinking but experiencing the sensations as they occur and letting go of them. Same with washing dishes or anything.


The fourth truth is that the Noble 8-fold Path is the path which leads to the end of suffering.
Click to expand...
A Basic Buddhism Guide: 5 Minute Introduction


Now, according to Buddha, reaching Nibbana (nirvana) - the third and fourth noble truths - takes a long gradual process.

This is how he described it:

The Buddha made clear many times that Awakening does not occur like a bolt out of the blue to the untrained and unprepared mind. Rather, it culminates a long journey of many stages:[1]

Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.

The Buddha's teachings are infused with this notion of gradual development. His method of "gradual instruction" (anupubbi-katha), which appears in various forms in countless suttas, always follows the same arc: he guides newcomers from first principles through progressively more advanced teachings, all the way to the fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths and the full realization of nibbana:

Here is the Buddha's six-stage gradual training in more detail:

Dhamma


Did you see the six-stage gradual training in details?
Click to expand...

When we are born we are closest to enlightenment/nirvanna/heaven. As we grow we lose that connection, we unlearn it, and we spend much of our lives trying to find our way back. Over many rebirths we accumulate, hopefully, the experience and the knowledge that takes us closer and closer to enlightenment. It can happen in an instant and there are ancient stories where it has happened. But the instant is in the context of many lifetimes.

Is progress measurable? Do I know if I am at a specific level? LOL! I certainly don't feel like it. As westerners we need specific steps to measure our progress in damn near everything. It is a product of our culture. Some Buddhist schools in the west have added levels of attainment to satisfy the western need to see progress.

Have I seen progress in my meditation? Yes, but purpose of meditation is for absolutely nothing to happen. I'm better at it than I once was, but not always. Has meditation been a benefit to me? In innumerable ways it has. I have greatly benefitted. Compared to who? Each person is different and thus each path is different and as such there really are no specific levels.

----------------------------

So when you told me that you're at the level wherein it'd take hundreds of reincarnation to reach nirvana (the third and the fourth noble truths).....I wonder how you manage the present?
Click to expand...

We are all at that level unless we are enlightened. Call it a condition rather than a level. I know this is confusing but Buddhist aren't counting the minutes until we become enlightened. Only by being fully in the present can I become enlightened. If I worry about how long it is going to take then I'm not making much progress at all. "The journey is the destination."

I manage the present by trying to fully experience each second. Lots of times I do a crap job of it, but there is a cumulative effect, good and bad. Hopefully being fully conscious as much as I can enables me to a much better person.

And you said, Buddhism is about living the present. Yes, you'll live the present - along with the pain and sufferings attached to that present.

Each present life you live, you'll go through the same painful process of living life....and how can it be any better for you if you have not reached that third and fourth noble truths?
Click to expand...

Well we all live through pain and suffering and disease and growing old. We can learn to live with it rather than worry about it, or regret it and doing so eases the suffering. We can end the cycle of birth, pain suffering, disease and death.

The Four Noble Truths are nothing to attain. They are truths.

It doesn't help either that you don't remember your previous life! It'd feel you're always on square one!
Click to expand...

LOL! Don't we all feel like hamsters on a wheel at times? There is no square, no beginning, no end. "World without end. Amen, amen." Once again, if I dwell on the future I will make myself unhappy at some point. When I focus on now and try to live with loving compassion this minute, today, I know I am making progress. When doing so I don't worry about the future.

How do you know you're not in that same level in your previous life?
Click to expand...

I don't.

And on top of that, there's no guarantee at all that you'll ever reach that state where there wouldn't be sufferings anymore.

Do you see what I mean?
Click to expand...

I do see what you mean. We will all, each one of us be enlightened, even the worst human you know. "Many paths, one destination."
 
Henrin said:
What is the point of previous lives if you can't remember them? Wouldn't it be better to just be born once and remember your life than to be born many times over and forget everything?
Click to expand...

There is no point All there is is your attachments to points
 
tosca1 said:
No, I'm not talking about your previous lives. I'm talking about your present.

Okay, I think we misunderstand each other, or maybe we're not referring to the same thing at all.
Let me try to explain what I'm saying.


You said: Buddhism is about living in the present, living in NOW.


And I'm trying to associate that with the first noble truth: the irrefutable fact that life is suffering, with the third and fourth noble truth which are:

The third truth is that suffering can be overcome and happiness can be attained; that true happiness and contentment are possible. lf we give up useless craving and learn to live each day at a time (not dwelling in the past or the imagined future) then we can become happy and free. We then have more time and energy to help others. This is Nirvana.

The fourth truth is that the Noble 8-fold Path is the path which leads to the end of suffering.

A Basic Buddhism Guide: 5 Minute Introduction


Now, according to Buddha, reaching Nibbana (nirvana) - the third and fourth noble truths - takes a long gradual process.

This is how he described it:

The Buddha made clear many times that Awakening does not occur like a bolt out of the blue to the untrained and unprepared mind. Rather, it culminates a long journey of many stages:[1]
Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.
The Buddha's teachings are infused with this notion of gradual development. His method of "gradual instruction" (anupubbi-katha), which appears in various forms in countless suttas, always follows the same arc: he guides newcomers from first principles through progressively more advanced teachings, all the way to the fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths and the full realization of nibbana:

Here is the Buddha's six-stage gradual training in more detail:

Dhamma


Did you see the six-stage gradual training in details?

----------------------------

So when you told me that you're at the level wherein it'd take hundreds of reincarnation to reach nirvana (the third and the fourth noble truths).....I wonder how you manage the present?
So, yes I'm talking about your present life.

And you said, Buddhism is about living the present. Yes, you'll live the present - along with the pain and sufferings attached to that present.


Each present life you live, you'll go through the same painful process of living life....and how can it be any better for you if you have not reached that third and fourth noble truths?


It doesn't help either that you don't remember your previous life! It'd feel you're always on square one!
How do you know you're not in that same level in your previous life?

And on top of that, there's no guarantee at all that you'll ever reach that state where there wouldn't be sufferings anymore.

Do you see what I mean?
Click to expand...

You don't manage the present. It just is and you live it.

As far as not knowing your previous lives and where you "stand" in relation to them, that desire to know is just an attachment. Buddha once taught that the two last obstacles to achieving perfection were fear and desire.
 
Risky Thicket said:
There probably isn't a point but there is a purpose. YOU, ME, anyone are not reincarnated. The energy that is you collective consciousness is reborn.
Click to expand...

Reborn, how? To what?
 
sangha said:
You don't manage the present. It just is and you live it.
Click to expand...


Okay. The present is just is, and you live it. So now, we're back to the first and second noble truths. The realities of sufferings that one can't change.....but which, according to Buddha, can be avoided.

Are you saying that..... today - as you live your present - you avoid suffering by simply accepting what happens to you as, "just the way it is?"



When we talk about sufferings....we don't just talk about the inevitability of ageing, or illness, or death.


What about, "real sufferings?" You know the expression, when it rains, it pours.

Like....

A person who's suffering terrible losses all within a short span - death of his child which results in the breakdown of the marriage, is now holding a pink slip in his hand. In the meantime, the debt collectors are knocking on his door.

...or,

A person spends most of his life in prison for something he didn't do. And he had to endure that injustice, and suffer all the consequence(s) of being in prison, which also includes alienation from his own children who grows up while he's incarcerated.

Those scenarios are very real, and they happen to many people.

What if that's your present? Do you avoid the sufferings attached to those circumstances.....by simple acceptance that that's just the way life is?



As far as not knowing your previous lives and where you "stand" in relation to them, that desire to know is just an attachment. Buddha once taught that the two last obstacles to achieving perfection were fear and desire.
Click to expand...

Attachment or not - it's only logical, or normal, to want to know where you stand, especially when you're talking about improvements and elevating levels!

You'd want a yardstick to measure things up so you'd know whether you're getting closer to your goal, or slipping down.

To want to know, is an irrefutable reality. That's how humans are!
 
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tosca1 said:
Okay. The present is just is, and you live it. So now, we're back to the first and second noble truths. The realities of sufferings that one can't change.....but which, according to Buddha, can be avoided.

Are you saying that..... today - as you live your present - you avoid suffering by simply accepting what happens to you as, "just the way it is?"
Click to expand...

If you wanted to grossly oversimplify it, I guess that might be a way to put it but being a religion, please don't be surprised to learn that it's a bit more complicated than that.

Through meditation and other practices, one learns the true nature of reality and self, such as the impermanence of all things, etc. By understanding these things, one eliminates their suffering so there is no need to "accept" it.

When we talk about sufferings....we don't just talk about the inevitability of ageing, or illness, or death.


What about, "real sufferings?" You know the expression, when it rains, it pours.

Like....

A person who's suffering terrible losses all within a short span - death of his child which results in the breakdown of the marriage, is now holding a pink slip in his hand. In the meantime, the debt collectors are knocking on his door.

...or,

A person spends most of his life in prison for something he didn't do. And he had to endure that injustice, and suffer all the consequence(s) of being in prison, which also includes alienation from his own children who grows up while he's incarcerated.

Those scenarios are very real, and they happen to many people.

What if that's your present? Do you avoid the sufferings attached to those circumstances.....by simple acceptance that that's just the way life is?
Click to expand...

As I said above, it's more than mere acceptance of suffering. It's the cessation of suffering.




Attachment or not - it's only logical, or normal, to want to know where you stand, especially when you're talking about improvements and elevating levels!

You'd want a yardstick to measure things up so you'd know whether you're getting closer to your goal, or slipping down.

To want to know, is an irrefutable reality. That's how humans are!
Click to expand...

I agree that the desire to know such things is normal, but if not having the desire to know leads to happiness then it is not logical to want to know.
 
sangha said:
If you wanted to grossly oversimplify it, I guess that might be a way to put it but being a religion, please don't be surprised to learn that it's a bit more complicated than that.
Through meditation and other practices, one learns the true nature of reality and self, such as the impermanence of all things, etc. By understanding these things, one eliminates their suffering so there is no need to "accept" it.
Click to expand...

I've already read about meditation and the other practices (methods) by which to reach the third and fourth noble truths. And it's a very long process, and no short-cut to it.

I'm referring to the time - in the mean time - while you're going through the process of training!


As I said above, it's more than mere acceptance of suffering. It's the cessation of suffering.
Click to expand...

The cessation of suffering is supposed to happen when you've reached nirvana. It's a long way to nirvana!

What happened BEFORE then? How do you alleviate sufferings while waiting?




I agree that the desire to know such things is normal, but if not having the desire to know leads to happiness then it is not logical to want to know.
Click to expand...

But that's whole point of wanting to know, isn't it? Because it's supposed to be reaching certain levels and upgrading!

So of course you'd want to see where you're at. To see if you're doing things right, and you're on the right track!
To know that you're gradually improving and inching towards that goal....and not sliding down away from it.

This days....it's quite easy to slide down without even realizing it - due to RELATIVISM! That's another current reality! Without relativism - there wouldn't be many split views from members of same religions!


Moral values during the time of Buddha are not exactly the same now. There are a lot of gray areas - thus even Buddhism has strayed away - in a relativistic way - from the explicit precept #1.
Some Buddhists see abortion as murder, and others, not. Because of relativism.

Christ had foreseen that, thus we've been warned not to conform to this world!
To stay firmly grounded on the Rock!


Not having the desire to know is easier said than done! That's not in-step with another current reality! :)

We're used to wanting to know - we've been conditioned to that!
That's why we now even have "THE RIGHT TO KNOW"....and we cite that right every time we want transparency! :lol:
 
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The great thing about Buddhism is that the buck stops with you. The rewards are attainable. You don't have to die to be happy.

“The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description.” - Albert Einstein
 
Amadeus said:
The great thing about Buddhism is that the buck stops with you. The rewards are attainable. You don't have to die to be happy.

“The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description.” - Albert Einstein
Click to expand...

It all depends on one's personal reason why he'd want to be involved in any religion, isn't it?

Some wants to be in a religion because....it seems cool. It's the fad of the time.

Some join for the social aspect of it.

Some are....searching to fill that spiritual void.

And some join a religion....because they've found what they've been searching for.
 
tosca1 said:
It all depends on one's personal reason why he'd want to be involved in any religion, isn't it?

Some wants to be in a religion because....it seems cool. It's the fad of the time.

Some join for the social aspect of it.

Some are....searching to fill that spiritual void.

And some join a religion....because they've found what they've been searching for.
Click to expand...

I agree. I am not a Buddhist myself. I don't think I can follow the tenets. I respect it because it promotes self-improvement not for fear of punishment, but for personal fulfilment. There is no punishment other than what we do to ourselves.
 
tosca1 said:
I've already read about meditation and the other practices (methods) by which to reach the third and fourth noble truths. And it's a very long process, and no short-cut to it.

I'm referring to the time - in the mean time - while you're going through the process of training!




The cessation of suffering is supposed to happen when you've reached nirvana. It's a long way to nirvana!

What happened BEFORE then? How do you alleviate sufferings while waiting?
Click to expand...

How do you alleviate suffering before you've learned how to alleviate suffering? Did you really just ask that?

The point isn't that you should accept it, or that you should not. The point is to realize that suffering is a part of life. To not "accept" it means to not recognize the reality of its' existence. Not recognizing reality is not the way to enlightenment. You must recognize and understand reality and respond to it with Right Actions





But that's whole point of wanting to know, isn't it? Because it's supposed to be reaching certain levels and upgrading!
Click to expand...

No, the point is to become enlightened

So of course you'd want to see where you're at. To see if you're doing things right, and you're on the right track!
To know that you're gradually improving and inching towards that goal....and not sliding down away from it.

This days....it's quite easy to slide down without even realizing it - due to RELATIVISM! That's another current reality! Without relativism - there wouldn't be many split views from members of same religions!
Click to expand...

If wanting to know leads you away from enlightenment, then why would you want to know?

And it's not relativism that leads away from enlightenment. It's not following the Eight-fold Path to Enlightenment.

Moral values during the time of Buddha are not exactly the same now. There are a lot of gray areas - thus even Buddhism has strayed away - in a relativistic way - from the explicit precept #1.
Some Buddhists see abortion as murder, and others, not. Because of relativism.

Christ had foreseen that, thus we've been warned not to conform to this world!
To stay firmly grounded on the Rock!
Click to expand...

You are trying to make Buddhism fit your understanding in order to make it seem as if it supports your view. It doesn't work that way.

Not having the desire to know is easier said than done! That's not in-step with another current reality! :)

We're used to wanting to know - we've been conditioned to that!
That's why we now even have "THE RIGHT TO KNOW"....and we cite that right every time we want transparency! :lol:
Click to expand...

Many things are easier said that done. Doesn't make them any less true.

And your talk of rights and transparency is just another attempt to impose your own views (in this case your political and moral views) on Buddhism.

It's not working.
 
tosca1 said:
Reborn, how? To what?
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Into another life. Not the same life, not the same person, not necessarily the same sex or the same color or the same nationality. How can wealth white westerner possibly fully comprehend the life of a black female in Somalia. What lessons would be learned to walk a mile in her shoes as it were? What better way to understand life's ultimate purpose? And the same reversed for a black lady in Somalia to the manor reborn.

The lessons we learn are the same ones but in different forms. We learn them and we get new lessons or we get the same lessons in a different form. We do that in this life as well. There is ample proof of that. Don't I know? LOL! I can't speak for anyone else, but I seem to learn best from the hardest lessons and the hardest lessons come after I refuse and deny the previous opportunities to learn.
 
Attachment or not - it's only logical, or normal, to want to know where you stand, especially when you're talking about improvements and elevating levels!

You'd want a yardstick to measure things up so you'd know whether you're getting closer to your goal, or slipping down.

To want to know, is an irrefutable reality. That's how humans are!
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Aint it the truth! We do, we do need yards sticks for everything. We must measure and weigh and count how we are compared to something, everything. That is how westerners are especially. It is a form of attachment. We are attached to a goal. We desire to reach the goal, to measure up, to win. Or as often happens we fail, temporarily, or we fail more often than not. Our progress sometimes or often isn't a rapid as we think it should be. We fear continued or ultimate and permanent failure. All that desire and fear causes suffering.

That is one perspective, but there is at least another one. Buddhism is letting go of that perspective, letting go of that attachment of measuring and comparison. In doing so we let go of desire and we let go of fear and thus we reduce suffering.
 
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