Is Religion Based on Pessimism?

Andalublue said:

I think you're deflecting. It's absolutely on-topic to discuss fundamental assumptions on the fallen nature of humanity. It seems a pessimistic view of creation to me, clearly not to you.

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Of course it would be a pessimistic view to you since you're only looking at that particular part - the fallen humanity.

But you're not looking at the whole picture. And you're overlooking all the other good parts that bring hope and optimism to a believer all the way FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END of the Bible.

Andalublue said:

That's true, Vajrayana (Tibetan) Buddhism was very closely tied into traditionalist, conservative and, some would say, feudal Tibetan society. How could it not be.

Buddhism in general has no concept of original sin, quite the opposite. Many Buddhists (I'm not knowledgable enough to claim that all of them) believe that we all possess what is known as the Buddha Nature, or tathagatagarbha i.e. the essence of impermanence and the underlying potential that all beings possess for enlightenment. In other words, perhaps more easily understood by non-students of Buddhist philosophy, all beings (not just humans, btw) at birth are blessed with this nature, rather than tainted by any primordial 'fall'.

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So, it's the original sin that's the issue for you that makes you say Christianity is based on pessimism. But like I've said....you're only looking at that part of history.

If God didn't bother to show and explain to us the history - how it all started - and in the process, reveal Himself to us (His nature, His likes and dislikes).....you wouldn't be saying that, right?

The fact that God explained to us that history, and in the process, He revealed to us the kind of God that He is.......actually underline the HOPE that comes with belief and trusting in Him!

Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post

That's true, Vajrayana (Tibetan) Buddhism was very closely tied into traditionalist, conservative and, some would say, feudal Tibetan society. How could it not be.

Buddhism in general has no concept of original sin, quite the opposite. Many Buddhists (I'm not knowledgable enough to claim that all of them) believe that we all possess what is known as the Buddha Nature, or tathagatagarbha i.e. the essence of impermanence and the underlying potential that all beings possess for enlightenment. In other words, perhaps more easily understood by non-students of Buddhist philosophy, all beings (not just humans, btw) at birth are blessed with this nature, rather than tainted by any primordial 'fall'.

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Well, let's look at Buddhism!



If there is indeed a religion that's based on pessimism, Buddhism would be it!


Here's your basic on Buddhism:

Buddhism takes a very straightforward look at our human condition; nothing is based on wishful thinking, at all.

Everything that the Buddha taught was based on his own observation of the way things are. Everything that he taught can be verified by our own observation of the way things are.

If we look at our life, very simply, in a straightforward way, we see that it is marked with frustration and pain.

A Basic Buddhism Guide: Introduction to Buddhism

Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post

I think you're deflecting. It's absolutely on-topic to discuss fundamental assumptions on the fallen nature of humanity. It seems a pessimistic view of creation to me, clearly not to you.

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And I think you've not really stopped and contemplated enough about your religion if you think it's not based on pessimism.


The first and second noble truths are enough to get you curl up in a ball and wish to die!

The first sermon that the Buddha preached after his enlightenment was about the four noble truths. The first noble truth is that life is frustrating and painful. In fact, if we are honest with ourselves, there are times when it is downright miserable.

The second noble truth is that suffering has a cause. We suffer because we are constantly struggling to survive.

A Basic Buddhism Guide: Introduction to Buddhism


But wait....it doesn't seem pessimistic all the way through. There's light at the end of the tunnel....


The third noble truth is that the cause of suffering can be ended. Our struggle to survive, our effort to prove ourselves and solidify our relationships is unnecessary.

This is the fourth noble truth: the way, or path to end the cause of suffering.


And what is the path?

The central theme of this way is meditation. Meditation, here, means the practice of mindfulness/awareness, shamata/vipashyana in Sanskrit. We practice being mindful of all the things that we use to torture ourselves with. We become mindful by abandoning our expectations about the way we think things should be and, out of our mindfulness, we begin to develop awareness about the way things really are. We begin to develop the insight that things are really quite simple, that we can handle ourselves, and our relationships, very well as soon as we stop being so manipulative and complex.


We see the word, "meditation"....sounds easy enough. But is it really that easy?

"We practice being mindful of things, abandon our expectations, develop awareness of the way things really are".....I mean what other reality could that mean if I'm still struggling to put food on the table, with children bawling and the spouse battling with a life-threatening illness, and we're about to be evicted from our two-bedroom apartment, and the car broke down and there's no money to have it repaired, etc?

Who can meditate through all that?


You gotta be kidding me! :mrgreen:

tosca1 said:

And I think you've not really stopped and contemplated enough about your religion if you think it's not based on pessimism.

The first and second noble truths are enough to get you curl up in a ball and wish to die!

The first sermon that the Buddha preached after his enlightenment was about the four noble truths. The first noble truth is that life is frustrating and painful. In fact, if we are honest with ourselves, there are times when it is downright miserable.

The second noble truth is that suffering has a cause. We suffer because we are constantly struggling to survive.

A Basic Buddhism Guide: Introduction to Buddhism


But wait....it doesn't seem pessimistic all the way through. There's light at the end of the tunnel....


The third noble truth is that the cause of suffering can be ended. Our struggle to survive, our effort to prove ourselves and solidify our relationships is unnecessary.

This is the fourth noble truth: the way, or path to end the cause of suffering.


And what is the path?

The central theme of this way is meditation. Meditation, here, means the practice of mindfulness/awareness, shamata/vipashyana in Sanskrit. We practice being mindful of all the things that we use to torture ourselves with. We become mindful by abandoning our expectations about the way we think things should be and, out of our mindfulness, we begin to develop awareness about the way things really are. We begin to develop the insight that things are really quite simple, that we can handle ourselves, and our relationships, very well as soon as we stop being so manipulative and complex.


We see the word, "meditation"....sounds easy enough. But is it really that easy?

"We practice being mindful of things, abandon our expectations, develop awareness of the way things really are".....I mean what other reality could that mean if I'm still struggling to put food on the table, with children bawling and the spouse battling with a life-threatening illness, and we're about to be evicted from our two-bedroom apartment, and the car broke down and there's no money to have it repaired, etc?

Who can meditate through all that?


You gotta be kidding me! :mrgreen:

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And the training to get to "there?"


A Gradual Training

The Dhamma, the truth taught by the Buddha, is uncovered gradually through sustained practice.
The Buddha made clear many times that Awakening does not occur like a bolt out of the blue to the untrained and unprepared mind. Rather, it culminates a long journey of many stages:[1]

Dhamma


He's not kidding when he said, GRADUAL! It's all indeed gradual.....


Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.


....and a looooong stretch.


I'm telling you, there wouldn't be a lot of obese people if they can maintain 15 minutes of walk each day!

Is that a realistic enough observation, or what?


And that's the problem with Buddhism!

Yes it's not into the metaphysical about first causes, no deity, no God........ and though its belief is based on the realities of life.....

....... the methods that it preaches though, isn't.

tosca1 said:

And the training to get to "there?"


A Gradual Training

The Dhamma, the truth taught by the Buddha, is uncovered gradually through sustained practice.
The Buddha made clear many times that Awakening does not occur like a bolt out of the blue to the untrained and unprepared mind. Rather, it culminates a long journey of many stages:[1]

Dhamma


He's not kidding when he said, GRADUAL! It's all indeed gradual.....


Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.


....and a looooong stretch.


I'm telling you, there wouldn't be a lot of obese people if they can maintain 15 minutes of walk each day!

Is that a realistic enough observation, or what?


And that's the problem with Buddhism! Yes it's not into the metaphysical about first causes, no deity, no God........ and though it's belief is based on the realities of life.....

....... the methods that it preaches though, isn't.

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Is that do-able? Yes.

But how many can really achieve that? Let's be realistic.

Andalublue said:

Which kind of presumes that the world is a place from which you'd need to seek refuge.

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The first noble truth is that life is frustrating and painful.

And you say I presume that the world is an awful place from which one must find refuge. Well, your religion says it's life that's painful and frustrating.


Where is your refuge?


Most importantly....how fast can you get there?

...of course, that's assuming you'd ever get there.


Now, isn't that indeed a downer.

tosca1 said:

The first noble truth is that life is frustrating and painful.

And you say I presume that the world is an awful place from which one must find refuge. Well, your religion says it's life that's painful and frustrating.


Where is your refuge?

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Life is inescapable. We are all born, all suffer illness and difficulties, and we all die. That is the reality from which we can seek refuge, and eventually overcome that constantly repeating cycle. There's the optimism - it can be overcome, and you can do it yourself.

Where does one find refuge? In the example of the Buddha, in the truth of the teaching, in the support of the community of people following the same path. Not in any external, supernatural force. If you find comfort in the idea of such a being, good for you - carry on!

Most importantly....how fast can you get there?

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Nothing worth having is instantaneous, nor does it come without intention, effort and time.

Andalublue said:

Life is inescapable.

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Yes, indeed.

We are all born, all suffer illness and difficulties, and we all die.

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Yes, indeed.

That is the reality from which we can seek refuge,

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So now you're admitting that we do need to seek refuge.

and eventually overcome that constantly repeating cycle.

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Well....that's an assumption, isn't it? How do you know it's a repeating cycle?

There's the optimism - it can be overcome, and you can do it yourself

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It's hard to be optimistic over something that Buddha says will take a very long process - so long that it will take several lifetimes to perfect.

AND THERE'S NO GUARANTEE! That's the tougher part.

Andalublue said:

Nothing worth having is instantaneous, nor does it come without intention, effort and time.

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I'm not even suggesting reaching nirvana be instantaneous. I'm asking....how fast can you get there?

Did you see the training involved? And Buddha says there's no short-cut!
So....there is the possibility that a person may never get there.

tosca1 said:

So now you're admitting that we do need to seek refuge.

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I suspect we are using the word in a different sense. In a Buddhist sense it means where you go to find comfort and support, not protection from a fallen world.

Well....that's an assumption, isn't it? How do you know it's a repeating cycle?

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A Tibetan teacher Patrul Rinpoche explains it this way:

The term samsara, the wheel or round of existence, is used here to mean going round and round from one place to another in a circle, like a potter's wheel, or the wheel of a water mill. When a fly is trapped in a closed jar, no matter where it flies, it can not get out. Likewise, whether we are born in the higher or lower realms, we are never outside samsara. The upper part of the jar is like the higher realms of gods and men, and the lower part like the three unfortunate realms. It is said that samsara is a circle because we turn round and round, taking rebirth in one after another of the six realms as a result of our own actions, which, whether positive or negative, are tainted by clinging.

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It's hard to be optimistic over something that Buddha says will take a very long process - so long that it will take several lifetimes to perfect.

AND THERE'S NO GUARANTEE! That's the tougher part.

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I can see how the idea that having to achieve enlightenment through your own effort may seem daunting, but what a worthwhile thing to dedicate effort to! As far as time-span goes, well you'll never know...until you know. Enlightenment happens in an instant, but may take many lifetimes, or just one. No one can say, but you can be confident that when you achieve it, you'll know.

I'm not even suggesting reaching nirvana be instantaneous. I'm asking....how fast can you get there?

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I think I've answered that unanswerable question.

[quoteDid you see the training involved? And Buddha says there's no short-cut![/quote]That's right. It's hard work, with no guarantees. It's not a practice for sissies!

So....there is the possibility that a person may never get there.

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No, no guarantees, but there's nothing hellish about sticking around on Earth; you can improve and improve and one fine day...who knows? How optimistic do you want it?

Andalublue said:

I suspect we are using the word in a different sense. In a Buddhist sense it means where you go to find comfort and support, not protection from a fallen world.

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I think we're using it the same way. Bad things still happen...even to practicing Christians.
But we find comfort, solace and rest in Christ.

A Tibetan teacher Patrul Rinpoche explains it this way:

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That would've to be faith-based.

I can see how the idea that having to achieve enlightenment through your own effort may seem daunting, but what a worthwhile thing to dedicate effort to! As far as time-span goes, well you'll never know...until you know. Enlightenment happens in an instant, but may take many lifetimes, or just one. No one can say, but you can be confident that when you achieve it, you'll know.

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Well, I hope you understand my point about Buddha's ways to avoid sufferings. The first and second noble truths gives someone like me a pessimistic look about life....and what is supposed to be the light at the end of the tunnel would be the third and the fourth noble truths.


Christians have their own faith to see them through sufferings.


Having faith and giving one's self to God to do as He pleases - trusting in Him - can, and does give instantaneous results. It happens.
Like I said, it's like giving the driver seat to someone (God), and letting Him handle the driving. That feeling, when that burden is suddenly lifted off your shoulders.....can be real.

Perhaps some non-believers will liken it to Nirvana, reaching that "state of mind".....but like I've said, it happens the moment you humbly submit to God.

That's right. It's hard work, with no guarantees. It's not a practice for sissies!
No, no guarantees, but there's nothing hellish about sticking around on Earth; you can improve and improve and one fine day...who knows? How optimistic do you want it?

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Well, you really would have to be an optimist to be gungho inspite all that!

As for me, I already found my refuge....and I'm holding God to His promise.

Considering that many of the major religions of the world stem from ancient civilizations where life was much harder, shorter, and brutal, it is unsurprising that there is a streak a negativity through them. Their worlds were harsh and cruel and their myths reflected this. They didn't have our ideals of innate nobility or equality among people. They didn't posses the knowledge about the natural world that we do that gives us more control over it than anyone before us ever has. They didn't have the medicine to survive the illnesses and injuries that plagued them. Those people lived in a world where half of all children died before the age of 5. That's a wholly different world that the one live in. It's one more reason why their ideas are incompatible with our own.

tosca1 said:

I think we're using it the same way. Bad things still happen...even to practicing Christians.
But we find comfort, solace and rest in Christ.

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Okay, we can agree to agree.

That would've to be faith-based.

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Well, Buddhism does require faith. I don't think I've ever argued otherwise, just not in supernatural entities. I presumes that you believe that the teachings of the Lord Buddha represent the truth of existence ,and that his solutions are correct - but of course, the proof is in the practice. You can prove that his insights are true by practicing.

Well, I hope you understand my point about Buddha's ways to avoid sufferings. The first and second noble truths gives someone like me a pessimistic look about life....and what is supposed to be the light at the end of the tunnel would be the third and the fourth noble truths.

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I do, but my point was, waay back at the beginning of this discussion, that we were discussing whether Christianity and Buddhism have a pessimistic or optimistic view of human nature, not of life and existence in general. We started off by talking about the concept of original sin - that's the concept that I find troubling and pessimistic.

Christians have their own faith to see them through sufferings.

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And I have no interest whatsoever in denying anyone the comfort they get from their faith, I'm just trying to explain why that philosophy doesn't resonate with me. I'd hate for anyone to think I'm evangelising. I'm just saying how I see it.

Having faith and giving one's self to God to do as He pleases - trusting in Him - can, and does give instantaneous results. It happens.
Like I said, it's like giving the driver seat to someone (God), and letting Him handle the driving. That feeling, when that burden is suddenly lifted off your shoulders.....can be real.

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I understand that, I just don't believe I can shift the responsibility for my own spiritual development onto something or someone else: my karma, my responsibility.

Perhaps some non-believers will liken it to Nirvana, reaching that "state of mind".....but like I've said, it happens the moment you humbly submit to God.

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I wouldn't make such an analogy. Submission and enlightenment seem to be very different concepts to me.

Well, you really would have to be an optimist to be gungho inspite all that!

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I find it very comforting. Life's pretty damn good, the first two Noble Truths notwithstanding.

As for me, I already found my refuge....and I'm holding God to His promise.

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What will you do if he can't or won't deliver on that promise? :mrgreen:

Andalublue said:

Okay, we can agree to agree.

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Mind you, come to think of it.....we were not exactly talking about the same kinds of sufferings.
I mentioned, "the world".....and you talk about realities of ageing, illness and death.


What about sufferings that's brought about by living in this world? Here, let me re-post this part:

"We practice being mindful of things, abandon our expectations, develop awareness of the way things really are".....I mean what other reality could that mean if I'm still struggling to put food on the table, with children bawling and the spouse battling with a life-threatening illness, and we're about to be evicted from our two-bedroom apartment, and the car broke down and there's no money to have it repaired, etc?

Who can meditate through all that?


So, how do you find refuge from that? In the PRESENT life, to be specific.

Well, Buddhism does require faith. I don't think I've ever argued otherwise, just not in supernatural entities.

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But, you have supernatural entities.

You have "devas" existing in "higher realms" which are said to be suffering in "samsara."
Buddha is often shown as teacher of the gods.
There is Brahma, among the common gods found in Pali Canon.

Brahma (in common with all other devas) is subject to change, final decline and death, just as are all other sentient beings in samsara (the plane of continual reincarnation and suffering). In fact there are several different Brahma worlds and several kinds of Brahmas in Buddhism, all of which however are just beings stuck in samsara for a long while.

The Rinzai Zen Buddhist master, Soyen Shaku, speaking to Americans at the beginning of the 20th century, discusses how in essence the idea of God is not absent from Buddhism, when understood as ultimate, true Reality:[52]

Buddhists see gods as not having attained nirvana, and still subject to emotions, including jealousy, anger, delusion, sorrow, etc. Thus, since a Buddha is believed to show the way to nirvana, a Buddha is called "the teacher of the gods and humans" (Skrt: śāsta deva-manuṣyāṇaṃ). According to the Pali Canon the gods have powers to affect only so far as their realm of influence or control allows them. In this sense therefore, they are no closer to nirvana than humans and no wiser in the ultimate sense. A dialogue between the king Pasenadi Kosala, his general Vidudabha and the historical Buddha reveals a lot about the relatively weaker position of gods in Buddhism.[66]

Though not believing in a creator God, Buddhists inherited the Indian cosmology of the time which includes various types of 'god' realms such as the Heaven of the Thirty-Three, the Four Great Kings, and so on. Deva-realms are part of the various possible types of existence in the Buddhist cosmology.

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God in Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I presumes that you believe that the teachings of the Lord Buddha represent the truth of existence ,and that his solutions are correct - but of course, the proof is in the practice. You can prove that his insights are true by practicing.

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Like him, anyone can observe what goes on in life - so yes, it's safe to say that he speaks the truth about the stark reality of life (the inevitability of ageing, illness, death).

But what about the other realities of sufferings? Like, being a victim of injustice, being a victim of a crime, loss and grief, etc..,

No, I don't find his solutions to sufferings, realistic.
Basically, according to another poster in the other thread, one will just have to "grin and bear it"....accepting that that's just the way it is. It's one thing to say you practice and train to reach that level where you'll no longer suffer.....but how does that alleviate sufferings in the present?

I'm talking about the NOW.

His solution (and his methods) is not realistic in this modern times.

Not realistic in the sense that they cannot be applied by everyone - especially in this current time.
MEDITATION is the first step (or one of the most important steps), if I'm not mistaken. And meditation is easier said than done, especially if you're a beginner I suppose.

One can go through the motion of meditating, but.....will that count?

Unless you've got so much free time on your hands - like if you're a retiree, or rich that you don't have to make a living - how can one possibly meditate in our current world? So many distractions around us, so many worries now compared to the past. So much stress. Who can concentrate to meditate?
And who has the time for that?

We have been conditioned to instant gratification now. That is a CURRENT REALITY.

So it's not surprising that one will see the pessimism in your religion.


We can't even keep to the regimen of physical exercise (for whatever reasons one may have) - even when the end result will be living a quality life longer! Some people even fail to follow the regimen - which can be as simple as doing 15 minutes walk - even when they're facing a life or death health situation.
That is a very real CURRENT REALITY that can be observed by simply watching people go by. A lot of obesity now compared to the old days.


Living was different during his time. Living was much simpler then.
I don't think his teachings had banked on the future....and the changes in reality.

Originally Posted by Andalublue
I do, but my point was, waay back at the beginning of this discussion, that we were discussing whether Christianity and Buddhism have a pessimistic or optimistic view of human nature, not of life and existence in general. We started off by talking about the concept of original sin - that's the concept that I find troubling and pessimistic.

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But, how did we get into our discussion - you and I? You responded to my post that was addressing the title question.
IS RELIGION BASED ON PESSIMISM?

You practically challenged me, statement-per-statement.

Originally Posted by tosca1 View Post

Christianity is not. It's in fact the opposite!

Andulublue

Really?

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It preaches, and shows LOVE. It gives HOPE.

Only to those predestined to be saved.

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It provides a refuge, and gives solace, and comfort.

Which kind of presumes that the world is a place from which you'd need to seek refuge.

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It promises rest, and peace, and eternal happiness.

For the select few.

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It promises forgiveness to those who seek....and an everlasting life.

Presuming that from the day you're born, you have need of forgiveness, which again is available to a limited number of humans.

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And the irony of it.....If you review the exchanges above - specially your responses - and associate your responses to your own religion, I guess you could say that most of your responses can apply to your faith. You also contradicted yourself.

The premise of your religion is definitely based on the irrefutable reality that life is sufferings....and yet, the methods to help alleviate the present suffering is not realistic. As you said yourself, it is daunting!
How many people will view that as optimism, and how many will see it as pessimism?

Why do you seek nirvana, if you don't think we need any refuge?

How many will reach Nirvana? What select few will have the time and the "state of mind" to be able to get into meditation, let alone follow the rest of the methods?


Well, you've opened Pandora's box....that's why we're now discussing your religion.

That's another irrefutable reality of life:
Never open anything if you don't want to face whatever might come out of it.

Originally Posted by Andalublue
I do, but my point was, waay back at the beginning of this discussion, that we were discussing whether Christianity and Buddhism have a pessimistic or optimistic view of human nature, not of life and existence in general.

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:shock:

What? You don't want to discuss life and existence in general?
Isn't the first and second noble truth all about life and existence?

Do you find it....depressing?


What did the OP mean if not the impact or influence of religion on our lives? What was all the pessimism about....if not applicable to life and existence?

What are we supposed to discuss?

Why do you shy away from the irrefutable reality?
This is about life and existence. General, or not.

tosca1 said:

:shock:

What? You don't want to discuss life and existence in general?
Isn't the first and second noble truth all about life and existence?

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I thought we'd been doing just that. I wanted to remind you however, that the only context in which I mentioned pessimism or optimism was in relation to the view of human nature.

Do you find it....depressing?

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Reality is what it is; being depressed about it would be pretty pointless. In any case, no. I don't find reality depressing.

What did the OP mean if not the impact or influence of religion on our lives? What was all the pessimism about....if not applicable to life and existence?

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It was about human nature, and whether or not human beings are born damaged, sinful and fallen. That I think I would find depressing, if I thought it were true.

Andalublue said:

I thought we'd been doing just that. I wanted to remind you however, that the only context in which I mentioned pessimism or optimism was in relation to the view of human nature.

Reality is what it is; being depressed about it would be pretty pointless. In any case, no. I don't find reality depressing.


It was about human nature, and whether or not human beings are born damaged, sinful and fallen. That I think I would find depressing, if I thought it were true.

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Well, I was answering the topic title: Is Religion Based On Pessimism?

The OP didn't make sense to me -


Many religious people have a glass half empty. They always assume the worst and blow up any problem out of proportions. Are religious people such due to intrinsic negativity? Someone once told me that a Christian glorifies the fall from grace. They like people who have problems, like if you someone drinks then they want them to become an alcoholic. If someone breaks an arm, they prefer if the bone punctures the skin.


- that was more like a rant! Or the poster is having language problems articulating. So I just responded to the title - seeing the word "CHRISTIAN" in the OP - I focused on explaining that the Christian faith is actually full of OPTIMISM!


It started dire for mankind and all living things but it ends happily. The Messiah had come. The Mission was accomplished!


Genesis is simply an explanation of PARADISE LOST.....

......and the New Testament tells about PARADISE REGAINED!


Although I'd never tell you to read the end of a book (before you read everything else) because it spoils the ending for you.........with the Bible, I'd say, GO FOR IT!

Paschendale said:

Those people lived in a world where half of all children died before the age of 5. That's a wholly different world that the one live in. It's one more reason why their ideas are incompatible with our own.

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Seems a bit strange then that so many faiths would emerge at this time, since they didn't see much evidence of the supernatural intervening to save their innocent children. Surely that would make people question the existence or purpose of the divine. As you say, it may then seem like a vengeful/wraith deity, but why construct a religion out of that pessimism in the first place?

I think they were just trying to cope with their lack of comprehension of their world, so these peasants come across as expendable servants of whichever deity. Innocence wasn't a real concern, when so few survived to adulthood, so you get stories like noah's ark where almost every living thing is killed off. Servants don't have to question anything. They can't understand why their lives are so difficult, but they don't have to. They can just rest assured that there is a purpose, confirmed by the 'rules' they have to follow.

michijo said:

Many religious people have a glass half empty. They always assume the worst and blow up any problem out of proportions. Are religious people such due to intrinsic negativity? Someone once told me that a Christian glorifies the fall from grace. They like people who have problems, like if you someone drinks then they want them to become an alcoholic. If someone breaks an arm, they prefer if the bone punctures the skin.

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It is if one is a pessimist.