• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Backgrounds of Acts 2:43-47 and Acts 4:32-37

You're wrong again!



The history of socialism has its origins in the French Revolution of 1789

and the changes brought about by the Industrial Revolution, although it has

precedents in earlier movements and ideas.


History of socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I really don't want to argue about semantics here .... The French revolution laid the framework for revolutions .... but it was not a socialist revolution in the sense that it created a socialist society, socialism in france came about in the 20th century. It didn't socialize anything really, or put anything into common ownership.

But to be honest this is neither here nor there .... I wasn't even talking about socialism in the modern western marxian sense at all, no one was, it's a strawman.
 
Last edited:
Yes .... God gave the land of Cannan to the Israelites ... Yes he's refering to the Israelites in the promised land, but the principles are universal ....

You're wrong again. Not on this one!

God never promised to give each and everyone of us land! Your interpretation - or whichever socialist site you're getting your ideas from - are unbiblical.
 
The mosaic Law wasn't voluntary ....

You're wrong again. VOLUNTARY! There's no common goods like a coop!

Deut 15: 10-11
You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’


Giving to the poor - and how heartily we give - is one of the good works that we'll be judged by. And it's true, the more you give, the more you're blessed.


Btw, take note that you'll never erase poverty!

For there will never cease to be poor in the land.
 
Last edited:
You're wrong again. Not on this one!

God never promised to give each and everyone of us land! Your interpretation - or whichever socialist site you're getting your ideas from - are unbiblical.

Where did I ever say God promised to give each and everyone of us land???? I have NOWHERE said that.

You're wrong again! This is not about semantics! It's a stated fact.

GIven that it's ONLY about the definition of socialism ..... yes ... it is semantics.

Deut 15: 10-11
You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

Notice you leave out vrs 9 ... because vrs 9 gives the context.

9 Be careful that you do not entertain a mean thought, thinking, “The seventh year, the year of remission, is near,” and therefore view your needy neighbor with hostility and give nothing; your neighbor might cry to the Lord against you, and you would incur guilt. 10 Give liberally and be ungrudging when you do so, for on this account the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. 11 Since there will never cease to be some in need on the earth, I therefore command you, “Open your hand to the poor and needy neighbor in your land.”

He's talking about loans (keep in mind, Usury is not allowed).
 
You're wrong again. VOLUNTARY! There's no common goods like a coop!

Deut 15: 10-11
You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’


Giving to the poor - and how heartily we give - is one of the good works that we'll be judged by. And it's true, the more you give, the more you're blessed.


Btw, take note that you'll never erase poverty!

For there will never cease to be poor in the land.

Again whole context.

9 Be careful that you do not entertain a mean thought, thinking, “The seventh year, the year of remission, is near,” and therefore view your needy neighbor with hostility and give nothing; your neighbor might cry to the Lord against you, and you would incur guilt. 10 Give liberally and be ungrudging when you do so, for on this account the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. 11 Since there will never cease to be some in need on the earth, I therefore command you, “Open your hand to the poor and needy neighbor in your land.”

He's talking about loans ... the common goods are in Acts, Gleaning is a form of making something the commons, as well as everything becoming the commons every 7th year in Israel.

You're taking the "there will never cease to be poor in the land" out of contxt, the point is you can always work for justice, and you shouldn't find and excuse not too ...

But remember the goal in vrs. 4

4 There will, however, be no one in need among you, because the Lord is sure to bless you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you as a possession to occupy,

So using vrs 11 to make an argumant that we should'nt work towards fighting against poverty falls flat on its face.

BTW, no one has yet touched the central argument in my OP.
 
Jesus never preached to have a common goods!


Luke 21:1-4
Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box, and he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. And he said, “Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”


There is an offering box! You put what you want to put! VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTION.


This is a comparison between the giving of the rich and poor. How much sacrifice is it for the rich to give when they have so much compared to a financially struggling person? The rich won't miss that money (probably it's a tax write-off too)...whereas the struggling person will most likely tighten his belt to accommodate for the contribution he gave.
 
Again whole context.

9 Be careful that you do not entertain a mean thought, thinking, “The seventh year, the year of remission, is near,” and therefore view your needy neighbor with hostility and give nothing; your neighbor might cry to the Lord against you, and you would incur guilt. 10 Give liberally and be ungrudging when you do so, for on this account the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. 11 Since there will never cease to be some in need on the earth, I therefore command you, “Open your hand to the poor and needy neighbor in your land.”

He's talking about loans ... the common goods are in Acts, Gleaning is a form of making something the commons, as well as everything becoming the commons every 7th year in Israel.

You're taking the "there will never cease to be poor in the land" out of contxt, the point is you can always work for justice, and you shouldn't find and excuse not too ...

But remember the goal in vrs. 4

4 There will, however, be no one in need among you, because the Lord is sure to bless you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you as a possession to occupy,

So using vrs 11 to make an argumant that we should'nt work towards fighting against poverty falls flat on its face.

BTW, no one has yet touched the central argument in my OP.


He's talking about helping others! Whether it's a loan or a gift....it's about helping someone in need!

Whaty central argument are you on about? You don't have a central argument!
How can you, when the foundation of your argument is based on fallacy? :lol:
 
Jesus never preached to have a common goods!


Luke 21:1-4
Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box, and he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. And he said, “Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”


There is an offering box! You put what you want to put! VOLUNTARY CONTRIBUTION.


This is a comparison between the giving of the rich and poor. How much sacrifice is it for the rich to give when they have so much compared to a financially struggling person? The rich won't miss that money (probably it's a tax write-off too)...whereas the struggling person will most likely tighten his belt to accommodate for the contribution he gave.

This post has 0 relevance to my OP, or anything I posted.

He's talking about helping others! Whether it's a loan or a gift....it's about helping someone in need!

He's talking about a specific reaction to a law regulating credit .... and that one should not react as described in vrs 9. Why do you refuse to take verses in their context.

Also, why do you ignore the argument in my OP.
 
He's talking about helping others! Whether it's a loan or a gift....it's about helping someone in need!

Whaty central argument are you on about? You don't have a central argument!
How can you, when the foundation of your argument is based on fallacy? :lol:

The central argument on what Acts 2:43-47 and ACts 4:32-37 is based on, i.e. where they got the idea to set up this communalist system.
 
The central argument on what Acts 2:43-47 and ACts 4:32-37 is based on, i.e. where they got the idea to set up this communalist system.

Read Ludin's responses to you. They've been addressed.


Btw, there's nothing wrong with making profits. How do you expect people to make a living?
It's cheating and usury that's wrong.

You think all the wealthy biblical people like Job, Solomon etc., didn't make any profits?
How do you think they could've afforded to keep and feed such large households which include servants and slaves?

You're pushing your ideology into the Bible....your interpretation is out of context.
 
Last edited:
Read Ludin's responses to you. They've been addressed.


Btw, there's nothing wrong with making profits. How do you expect people to make a living?
It's cheating and usury that's wrong.

You think all the wealthy biblical people like Job, Solomon etc., didn't make any profits?
How do you think they could've afforded to keep and feed such large households which include servants and slaves?

You're pushing your ideology into the Bible....your interpretation is out of context.

Ludin didn't respond to the argument in my OP, he made up a strawman and argued against that, and posted links to Southern baptist theologians ...

Profit IS usury, usury is the charging of ANY interest.

Jon didn't live in a biblical society at the time, and he just had a lot of livestock and land ... that isn't profit in the economic sense.

Solomon was the head of state, and God commanded him Psalms 72 VERY STERNLY to make sure to put social justice first.

Also this Whole thing is a strawman, when have I EVER SAID that Rich People are evil, or you it's impossible be wealthy and Godly, how does this have ANYTHING to do With my OP at all?
 
Ludin didn't respond to the argument in my OP, he made up a strawman and argued against that, and posted links to Southern baptist theologians ...

Profit IS usury, usury is the charging of ANY interest.

Jon didn't live in a biblical society at the time, and he just had a lot of livestock and land ... that isn't profit in the economic sense.

Solomon was the head of state, and God commanded him Psalms 72 VERY STERNLY to make sure to put social justice first.

Also this Whole thing is a strawman, when have I EVER SAID that Rich People are evil, or you it's impossible be wealthy and Godly, how does this have ANYTHING to do With my OP at all?

now that is a strawman. no one ever said you said that rich people were evil.

We are saying this so called social justice, communial whatever didn't exist.

people operated on a money based society and a trade society. that was there economy. as if it wasn't there wouldn't have been any poor, but there was poor which means there were rich people as well.

Job did live in the bible and wealth wasn't always determined by money but by assets. Job has large patches of land and many livestock that alone made him very wealthy. the fact that he has many servants is also a key note that job was very rich as well.

Psalm 72 is not God's charge to solomon but a prayer from David to God about his son. that he be a wise king just and fair to all of this people.
again you don't know what you are talking about.

also i didn't argue a strawman i argued against your attempt of social justice and wealth redistribution. so i didn't strawman at all.

I have posted link after link that shows that you are corrupting the scripture for your own device for whatever reason.
you continue to ignore evidence that shows you are wrong.
 
1. now that is a strawman. no one ever said you said that rich people were evil.

2. We are saying this so called social justice, communial whatever didn't exist.

people operated on a money based society and a trade society. that was there economy. as if it wasn't there wouldn't have been any poor, but there was poor which means there were rich people as well.

3. Job did live in the bible and wealth wasn't always determined by money but by assets. Job has large patches of land and many livestock that alone made him very wealthy. the fact that he has many servants is also a key note that job was very rich as well.

4. Psalm 72 is not God's charge to solomon but a prayer from David to God about his son. that he be a wise king just and fair to all of this people.
again you don't know what you are talking about.

5. also i didn't argue a strawman i argued against your attempt of social justice and wealth redistribution. so i didn't strawman at all.

6. I have posted link after link that shows that you are corrupting the scripture for your own device for whatever reason.
you continue to ignore evidence that shows you are wrong.

1. Tosca1 gives all these arguments about Rich People in the bible that were good ... as if I made an argument against that possibility.

2. Ancient Israel was mainly a landed society, there were poor People, but the goal was to NOT have poor People as stated in Deuteronomy, which is why you had social justice policies in the commandments and why the prophets constantly houned on social justice.

3. Jon didn't live in a society run by God fearing People .... that's my point, he was not part of the nation of Israel.

4. Read what Psalm 72 is about, it's a social justice poem.

5. Where did I mention wealth redistribution.

6. You posted other people's opinion, i.e. an argument from authority, I can post links to other theologians, but it doesn't mean ****, what matters is the actual text.

Throughout the scriptures the welfare of the People, especially the poor, and social justice were ALWAYS a priority over property and profit, ALWAYS.

The Whole point of this thread was to show the Connection between Acts 2 and 4, Luke 4 and Deuteronomy 15 ... it seams so far you haven't even touched the entire point of my thread.
 
1. Tosca1 gives all these arguments about Rich People in the bible that were good ... as if I made an argument against that possibility.

No he hasn't
2. Ancient Israel was mainly a landed society, there were poor People, but the goal was to NOT have poor People as stated in Deuteronomy, which is why you had social justice policies in the commandments and why the prophets constantly houned on social justice.

no it wasn't. there is nothing like that at all on deuteronomy. again your misinterpritation has already been proven. no where did anyone seize someone elses assets and give it to the poor. Land was given back to the original owners, debts were forgiven, but beyond that no other asset was taken from someone and given to the poor.

3. Jon didn't live in a society run by God fearing People .... that's my point, he was not part of the nation of Israel.

First off his name is Job not jon. you don't even know who you were talking about. Yes Job was a God fearing man which is why he was tried and temped and basically destroyed by Satan. For his Faithfulness God gave him back more than what he lost. Yes he was.

4. Read what Psalm 72 is about, it's a social justice poem.

No it isn't you have no clue about what you are talking about. It is a prayer from david to solomon that he be a wise king.

5. Where did I mention wealth redistribution.
Umm that is what social justice is.

6. You posted other people's opinion, i.e. an argument from authority, I can post links to other theologians, but it doesn't mean ****, what matters is the actual text.

WRONG again. i didn't post peoples opinions i posted expert translations that show what i am saying is correct. that is what happens in an argument. You on the other hand are posting your opinion which has been proven wrong time and time again.

Throughout the scriptures the welfare of the People, especially the poor, and social justice were ALWAYS a priority over property and profit, ALWAYS.

*SIGH* the bible commands us to help the poor and to look after them. It doesn't say that we have to give up everything we own or allow it to be taken. that you are to be a cheerful giver. not someone take what you earn so that someone else may have it.

this is why your interpritation is corrupted. you don't understand the difference between free will of being a cheerful giver and wealth redistribution.
No the bible never preached anything against owning property or profit except when you put it above everything else.

The Whole point of this thread was to show the Connection between Acts 2 and 4, Luke 4 and Deuteronomy 15 ... it seams so far you haven't even touched the entire point of my thread.

No that isn't the whole point of the thread. the point of the thread is to try and push some anti-wealth and social justice wealth distribution of the bible.
many people have attempted the same thing.

they are simply not correct. the bible does not preach against anything about making money or owning property. it says nothing about giving up what you own to someone else. as i have proven even the later christians own property. they held private money as well.

however they shared with each other as they were in need.

what it does preach against is what you are doing and that is attempting to distort the bible for your own ideology.

i have proven this time and time again. to the point i have no need of further response to you. you can continue to distort the bible only people that know better won't listen.

i am trying to prevent people that don't know better from being mislead.
 
no it wasn't. there is nothing like that at all on deuteronomy. again your misinterpritation has already been proven. no where did anyone seize someone elses assets and give it to the poor. Land was given back to the original owners, debts were forgiven, but beyond that no other asset was taken from someone and given to the poor.

Not in Deuteronomy 15, but in other aspects of the Law there was ... but again, it's besides the point.

First off his name is Job not jon. you don't even know who you were talking about. Yes Job was a God fearing man which is why he was tried and temped and basically destroyed by Satan. For his Faithfulness God gave him back more than what he lost. Yes he was.

Really? Job was part of the nation of Israel? So the Land of UZ (in Arabia) was actually part of Israel?

No it isn't you have no clue about what you are talking about. It is a prayer from david to solomon that he be a wise king.

Yes, which is primarily concerned With social justice .... just read it.

Umm that is what social justice is.

No it isn't, social justice CAN incldue wealth redistribution, but it doesn't neccesitate it.

WRONG again. i didn't post peoples opinions i posted expert translations that show what i am saying is correct. that is what happens in an argument. You on the other hand are posting your opinion which has been proven wrong time and time again.

You didn't post translations you posted theological opinions ....

*SIGH* the bible commands us to help the poor and to look after them. It doesn't say that we have to give up everything we own or allow it to be taken. that you are to be a cheerful giver. not someone take what you earn so that someone else may have it.

this is why your interpritation is corrupted. you don't understand the difference between free will of being a cheerful giver and wealth redistribution.
No the bible never preached anything against owning property or profit except when you put it above everything else.

Again, you're not dealing With my actual argument. My point is the type of economic institutions that the bible endorses and the political priorities the bible endorses.

No that isn't the whole point of the thread. the point of the thread is to try and push some anti-wealth and social justice wealth distribution of the bible.
many people have attempted the same thing.

they are simply not correct. the bible does not preach against anything about making money or owning property. it says nothing about giving up what you own to someone else. as i have proven even the later christians own property. they held private money as well.

however they shared with each other as they were in need.

what it does preach against is what you are doing and that is attempting to distort the bible for your own ideology.

i have proven this time and time again. to the point i have no need of further response to you. you can continue to distort the bible only people that know better won't listen.

i am trying to prevent people that don't know better from being mislead.

How about you don't tell me what the point of threads I start is, and isntead actually read my OP.

You haven't proven anything you posted other Peoples opinions.

They held everythin in common, that's Institutional, and if you don't think these biblical ethics, of caring for the poor, puting People over profits and community should apply to civic society then that's basically you saying faith should NOT be Public.
 
Ludin didn't respond to the argument in my OP, he made up a strawman and argued against that, and posted links to Southern baptist theologians ...

Profit IS usury, usury is the charging of ANY interest.

Jon didn't live in a biblical society at the time, and he just had a lot of livestock and land ... that isn't profit in the economic sense.

If not for money, then it's a barter system! There wouldn't be any economy without that!

Of course they have to make a profit! How can they afford to feed so many mouths?


Btw, you do know that there were indentured servants during that time, do you?

Indentured Servitude

Indentured servitude did exist under the Law of Moses, and both fellow Hebrews and foreigners could be contracted as indentured servants. They sold themselves into the ownership of a master to whom they owed money (or a master who paid off the debts they owed to another person), and payed off their debt with service.

http://bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/slavery-in-the-bible-25/#indentured


In other words, if they cannot pay their debts with money - they paid it by providing labor!
Therefore, it is expected that when you make a loan or borrow money - you have to pay it!




Solomon was the head of state, and God commanded him Psalms 72 VERY STERNLY to make sure to put social justice first.

He bartered with Hiram!



1 Kings 5
6 “So give orders that cedars of Lebanon be cut for me. My men will work with yours, and I will pay you for your men whatever wages you set. You know that we have no one so skilled in felling timber as the Sidonians.”

7 When Hiram heard Solomon’s message, he was greatly pleased and said, “Praise be to the Lord today, for he has given David a wise son to rule over this great nation.”

8 So Hiram sent word to Solomon:


“I have received the message you sent me and will do all you want in providing the cedar and juniper logs. 9 My men will haul them down from Lebanon to the Mediterranean Sea, and I will float them as rafts by sea to the place you specify. There I will separate them and you can take them away. And you are to grant my wish by providing food for my royal household.”

10 In this way Hiram kept Solomon supplied with all the cedar and juniper logs he wanted, 11 and Solomon gave Hiram twenty thousand cors of wheat as food for his household, in addition to twenty thousand baths[c][d] of pressed olive oil.




Also this Whole thing is a strawman, when have I EVER SAID that Rich People are evil, or you it's impossible be wealthy and Godly, how does this have ANYTHING to do With my OP at all?

I don't know what you're talking about.
 
Last edited:
If it was against God to expect payment for a loan that was made, then Jesus wouldn't have used The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant in His teachings.


Matthew 18
23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[c] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
 
RGacky3 takes the borrowing of money out of context.

When God talked about helping the poor and not asking for anything in return , I bet He didn't mean about the "poor" borrowing money from Visa or American Express to buy a car, or a large screen TV.
Or the mortgage to a large house!

God was referring to the real needy people. And usually, God talks about basic needs.
Food, clothing and shelter.
 
1. Tosca1 gives all these arguments about Rich People in the bible that were good ... as if I made an argument against that possibility.

:lamo

Of course I'll give examples of God's people! I'm showing you that God allows it, don't I?


Not only that....He BLESSED them with WEALTH.


READ again: W E A L T H.


If Job was wealthy before - well, he even got wealthier.


Job 42:12
The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys.





If God calls it a blessing, therefore being wealthy is not necessarily bad.
 
Last edited:
:lamo

Of course I'll give examples of God's people! I'm showing you that God allows it, don't I?


Not only that....He BLESSED them with WEALTH.


READ again: W E A L T H.


If Job was wealthy before - well, he even got wealthier.

Job 42:12
The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys.


If God calls it a blessing, therefore being wealthy is not necessarily bad.

Who has EVER said that being wealthy is necessarily bad in itself???
 
1. If not for money, then it's a barter system! There wouldn't be any economy without that!

2. Of course they have to make a profit! How can they afford to feed so many mouths?


Btw, you do know that there were indentured servants during that time, do you?

Indentured Servitude

Indentured servitude did exist under the Law of Moses, and both fellow Hebrews and foreigners could be contracted as indentured servants. They sold themselves into the ownership of a master to whom they owed money (or a master who paid off the debts they owed to another person), and payed off their debt with service.

Slavery In The Bible (2/5) | Bible Apologetics


4. In other words, if they cannot pay their debts with money - they paid it by providing labor!
Therefore, it is expected that when you make a loan or borrow money - you have to pay it!

1. No, actually for most of human history there wa NOT a barter system, it was a communal system, where Resources were shared, not owned and traded.

2. By growing Food and eating it, or eating Food that was grown .... You're applying a Capitalist system that only really started in the late middle ages to antiquity ... read some anthropology and history. Profit is a New thing.

3. Yes I did know there were indentured servants, the scripture in Deuteronomy 15 was about indentured servitude ... Also they didn't "sell themselves" they were servants for 7 years no matter what the debt.

4. NO ONE HAS EVER SAID OTHERWISE .... will you FOR GODS SAKE, please read the OP.


He bartered with Hiram!



1 Kings 5
6 “So give orders that cedars of Lebanon be cut for me. My men will work with yours, and I will pay you for your men whatever wages you set. You know that we have no one so skilled in felling timber as the Sidonians.”

7 When Hiram heard Solomon’s message, he was greatly pleased and said, “Praise be to the Lord today, for he has given David a wise son to rule over this great nation.”

8 So Hiram sent word to Solomon:


“I have received the message you sent me and will do all you want in providing the cedar and juniper logs. 9 My men will haul them down from Lebanon to the Mediterranean Sea, and I will float them as rafts by sea to the place you specify. There I will separate them and you can take them away. And you are to grant my wish by providing food for my royal household.”

10 In this way Hiram kept Solomon supplied with all the cedar and juniper logs he wanted, 11 and Solomon gave Hiram twenty thousand cors of wheat as food for his household, in addition to twenty thousand baths[c][d] of pressed olive oil.


Oh Yeah, between 2 Kingdoms .... of coarse, that is not an internal system, that is not talking an economic system, that's macro economics between different communities.

I don't know what you're talking about.

Then read the OP, and PLEASE read it carefully.
 
Back
Top Bottom