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The Spirit will Guide you into all Truth

phattonez said:
He spoke to the apostles, and guaranteed that they would be lead into truth. Did this promise just go away for nearly 2000 years?
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The apostles were the first of the anointed.
 
phattonez said:
You're not answering my question.
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Jesus did give truth to the apostles-- some truths died with them and the Christians--the majority--rejects truth because they hate it.
 
Bad teachings started to infiltrate after Jesus death, in Peter. Also Paul corrected Peter on a different occasion. The same thing occurred to the Pharisees, Jesus pointed out to them their errors and they rejected him--a lowly carpenters son trying to tell us we are wrong. One thing Jesus never did was reject the God taught in the synagogues--YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God. The Father came first 100% with Jesus, he surely would have told the Israelite leaders they were wrong about who God is, but he did not. Because its 100% fact--The Israelites served the true God-YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God. Jesus' God--John 20:17, rev 3:12
 
phattonez said:
It's the fact that 10 followers, under torture, would not change their story and deny the resurrection. It made the Jews and the Romans look bad, so they wanted desperately to find a body. The only other explanation is that the apostles stole the body, because if there was a body then the religion would not grow as quickly as it did in Jerusalem. They never found a body, and under torture 10 different men would not change their story/give up the location of the body. It makes the resurrection the only plausible explanation. That and we have the fact that within the first generation of Christ the religion grew among quickly among those who could look into the truth for themselves quite easily.

10 different men, all died under torture rather than change their story. St. Bartholomew was even skinned alive!
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The problem is, there is no reliable source in the scientific sense for the truth of these events. There is no evidence whatsoever that this really happened as you describe it, that would convince atheists. So it's a matter of belief, as I just said, which you either embrace or reject. And it's not even written in the Bible, as far as I know.

Also, psychologists would argue that 10 people being tortured to death without withdrawing their claims is no evidence for the truth of their claims, but at best for the fact that they believed them to be true for whatever reasons.

And then, this argument applies to the Baha'i faith too: When the Bab appeared, dozens of thousands of his followers were tortured to death, and even still today, there are many Baha'i in Iran who will rather choose death than denying their faith. If your argument is true, I will ask you: How would it possible that all these people sacrifice their lives if their faith was not the truth?
 
German guy said:
The problem is, there is no reliable source in the scientific sense for the truth of these events. There is no evidence whatsoever that this really happened as you describe it, that would convince atheists. So it's a matter of belief, as I just said, which you either embrace or reject. And it's not even written in the Bible, as far as I know.
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It is anecdotal evidence, sure, but look at how quickly the religion grew within a generation of Christ. These people could check for themselves to see whether the stories were true. That it grew so quickly and so large is convincing.

Also, psychologists would argue that 10 people being tortured to death without withdrawing their claims is no evidence for the truth of their claims, but at best for the fact that they believed them to be true for whatever reasons.
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10 separate men tortured to death separately and none changed their stories.

And then, this argument applies to the Baha'i faith too: When the Bab appeared, dozens of thousands of his followers were tortured to death, and even still today, there are many Baha'i in Iran who will rather choose death than denying their faith. If your argument is true, I will ask you: How would it possible that all these people sacrifice their lives if their faith was not the truth?
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I'd like to see this story. I'd also like to see the evidence that shows that it grew quickly within a generation.
 
phattonez said:
It is anecdotal evidence, sure, ...
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Exactly. Nobody who isn't a Christian already (or member of another religion that reveres Jesus Christ) has a reason to believe it. To claim otherwise would be circular reasoning.

I'd like to see this story. I'd also like to see the evidence that shows that it grew quickly within a generation.
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Some background info: The Bab, divine manifestation and forerunner of Baha'u'llah (the "John the Baptist of the Baha'i faith", if you will), tought in Persia 1844-1850, when he was executed. During these and the following years, some 20,000 to 30,000 of his followers were persecuted and murdered.

Bábism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baha'u'llah revealed His divine manifestation in 1863, in accordance with the Bab's announcement, and was consequently banned, exiled and incarcerated with his followers by the Muslim authorities.

Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Despite this massive persecution, the Baha'i faith has spread, increased its number of followers from a couple of hundred thousands to between 6 and 8 million during the 20th century. That means there are already half as many Baha'i as there are Jews. Also, the Baha'i faith is today the geographically second most widespread religion on this planet.
 
German guy said:
Exactly. Nobody who isn't a Christian already (or member of another religion that reveres Jesus Christ) has a reason to believe it. To claim otherwise would be circular reasoning.
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To claim that all anecdotal evidence can be dismissed is nonsense. We need to look at how reliable it is.

Some background info: The Bab, divine manifestation and forerunner of Baha'u'llah (the "John the Baptist of the Baha'i faith", if you will), tought in Persia 1844-1850, when he was executed. During these and the following years, some 20,000 to 30,000 of his followers were persecuted and murdered.

Bábism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baha'u'llah revealed His divine manifestation in 1863, in accordance with the Bab's announcement, and was consequently banned, exiled and incarcerated with his followers by the Muslim authorities.

Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Despite this massive persecution, the Baha'i faith has spread, increased its number of followers from a couple of hundred thousands to between 6 and 8 million during the 20th century. That means there are already half as many Baha'i as there are Jews. Also, the Baha'i faith is today the geographically second most widespread religion on this planet.
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A few questions. How many people did they appear to? Was there any way for lay people to check the validity of their claims (did they perform miracles)?

Honestly I don't know much about Baha'i so I'd like to know more. Right now I would just be arguing from ignorance.
 
You suggested that Christianity was unique in its rate of growth, he gave you a recent example of a religion which grew more. Your questions about miracles and validation are irrelevant. Arguing from ignorance hasn't stopped you before, I do believe you have been pwned.
 
Manc Skipper said:
You suggested that Christianity was unique in its rate of growth, he gave you a recent example of a religion which grew more. Your questions about miracles and validation are irrelevant. Arguing from ignorance hasn't stopped you before, I do believe you have been pwned.
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You apparently love to troll the threads in the religious discussion forum for any opportunity, don't you? How sad.

Nonetheless, I wanted to know if the specifics such as the many miracles were present here and to how many people these prophets appeared to since it makes a huge difference. I never denied that a cult leader could arise, but if he's making claims that are easily disproven (like the resurrection, all you would need to do is find the body) then you probably won't see growth. So the miracles are an important part of it.
 
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