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Handing Out Bibles to Students

Manc Skipper said:
It's not a free gift, it's a trojan horse. It's handed out before their peers, making it difficult to refuse. That's restricting the non-Christian students' rights
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Meh. No one is making them take it. Certainly no one is making them read it. No one is telling them they have to believe it. Tempest in a teakettle.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I think that you are reading too much into it. Yes, this is a Christian dominated society and it was the Gideon's that were here today. I am in this society and accept it... don't worry. I also think that times are a changing because each Kiwi I talked about this with today seemed to look at it from a different mind set when I brought it up.
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Looking at wikipedia gives some interesting stats. According to last years census 43.47% of the population is Christian, and 50.82% said No Religion/not stated/objected to answering.

The balance may be shifting towards a more secular standing there.
 
phildozer9121 said:
Mmmm my verbage was confusing there, I meant to ask what would the people handing out the bibles think they're getting out of it, not the kids themselves. It seems to me that very few would do much more than immediately throw that bible away, and if they were a christian, they would already have a bible
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I suppose they figure if they hand out 10,000 bibles and the result is something positive for 10 kids, then it was worth it to them.

They're the Gideons, it is what they do.


If you wish to explore their motives, methods and expectations more thoroughly, here is their website... Home
 
This is kind of related. I searched on the Canada question:

A Toronto woman has filed suit against the Ontario government in a bid to turn back the clock on funding for Catholic schools to 1867, when the right to a separate system was enshrined in law.

Reva Landau, a retired business systems analyst, concedes in her application that the Constitution protects Catholic school funding in Ontario.

But Landau argues that giving Catholic schools more money than is strictly required by law offends the Charter of Rights and Freedoms’ equality provisions.

“In an ideal world, I’d like to see one public school system,” said Landau, who holds a law degree from the University of Toronto. . .

The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled already that Sect. 93 of the Constitution Act, 1867, which guarantees Catholic school funding in Ontario, is immune from charter challenges. (The charter specifically exempts from review all rights guaranteed in the constitution.)

In Landau’s application, filed in the Superior Court of Justice, Landau asks for an order that eliminates all government aid for Catholic schools from Grades 9 to 12.

She also seeks an order that limits the funding of Grades 1 to 8 to “only that aid available in 1867, that is, only property taxes from Catholics who declare themselves to be separate school supporters and who live within three miles of a separate school, and property taxes from wholly Catholic-owned businesses.”

She argues the current funding system unjustly forces her, through the tax system, to support Catholic schools.

“It means I’m being forced to fund a system that has sectarian views of which I do not approve,” she said. “I’m therefore being discriminated against because a Catholic is not being forced to fund a system of which they do not approve.”

Landau’s legal gambit, which could renew the emotional separate school debate, faces an uphill battle.

The Supreme Court has twice ruled on issues related to Catholic school funding in Ontario. It upheld Premier Bill Davis’ decision to extend full funding in 1984 as a valid exercise of the province’s constitutional power. And it later dismissed an argument, made on behalf of parents from other faith-based schools, that the system discriminates against them.

In its rulings, the high court has noted that the Catholic school funding guarantee was an important compromise on the road to Confederation..​

The world is a big interesting place. Here is Canada, where their courts recognize that pubic funding of Catholic schools is a fundamental issue of Canadian identity because it recognizes the compromise that was enacted in order to bring about Canada as a nation. That's a completely different path than that taken by Americans.

Also note that other religions in Canada don't get the same treatment as the Catholic schools. Why? Because they weren't embedded deep into Canadian history and culture like the Catholics and their schooling issues.
 
RiverDad said:
There is no difference. I'm an Atheist and I'm more offended when I have liberal scripture shoved down my throat than when I see religious texts or discussions. These issues are always in the eye of the beholder. It's fine that you don't like religion and love liberal nonsense, but I'm of the opposite position.

In the end religion is just another set of ideas, just like politics or environmentalism. Very important to some people, utter nonsense to others, and deeply offensive to still others.
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You can say that most catholics believe in the tenants of the catholic church, but you can't say that all conservatives share ideals. You can't say that anti-nuke people share ideals besides 'no nukes', or I guess you could, but you would be wrong. There's a HUGE difference in handing someone a single piece of paper that says "save the whales; meet and greet tuesday night at the rec center!" And, 'here is a book by which you should live, with strict rules and laws and if you don't follow them then fire and brimstone and suffering' One is obviously a much more personal and in depth thing to follow than the other.
 
Phoenix_M said:
Looking at wikipedia gives some interesting stats. According to last years census 43.47% of the population is Christian, and 50.82% said No Religion/not stated/objected to answering.

The balance may be shifting towards a more secular standing there.
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I'm not a Christian but my values are deeply embedded in a Christian foundation, as are those of most people who were raised in the Christian West but have abandoned religion. To be a Westerner is in a very real sense to be a Christian.
 
phildozer9121 said:
You can say that most catholics believe in the tenants of the catholic church, but you can't say that all conservatives share ideals. You can't say that anti-nuke people share ideals besides 'no nukes', or I guess you could, but you would be wrong. There's a HUGE difference in handing someone a single piece of paper that says "save the whales; meet and greet tuesday night at the rec center!" And, 'here is a book by which you should live, with strict rules and laws and if you don't follow them then fire and brimstone and suffering' One is obviously a much more personal and in depth thing to follow than the other.
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And each student who receives that Bible is free to go home, take out his stash, rip a page from the Bible, and roll himself a dube. In other words, people can speak AT YOU about all sorts of things and you're under no obligation to ACCEPT what they've said. Religion is no different than anti-whaling speech.
 
RiverDad said:
And each student who receives that Bible is free to go home, take out his stash, rip a page from the Bible, and roll himself a dube. In other words, people can speak AT YOU about all sorts of things and you're under no obligation to ACCEPT what they've said. Religion is no different than anti-whaling speech.
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I did not disagree with you at all they should be allowed to speak about it, I was referring back to OP's point that it's in bad taste to hand them out to everyone assuming that everyone is going to want to read it. Most of those other campaigns, you're allowed to decide if you want to take their flier or brochure; as it was described, it seems that these kids were issued bibles, forced to take them, which I mentioned before I think is dumb.
 
phildozer9121 said:
The fear would be that a student might feel ostracized if they personally don't follow the faith, and it's just a dumb waste of paper otherwise. What kid sits down a reads a bible just because someone handed it to them? What could they possibly think they're getting out of it?
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I did. When I was a kid, there was some guy sitting outside our school handing out Bibles. I was walking home from school with a friend. We each took one. My friend took his and threw it in a creek. I kept mine and read it.

I say keep handing out Bibles.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I live in New Zealand now... but each year these Christian guys come to the school and at assembly they hand out Bibles to every student. I will talk to our principal today about it for the first time because the issue pisses me off. When my kids get into high school I will also let the Christian guys know how I feel about it. What are your thoughts?
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I'd tell you to piss off, dad. If I ever see your kid, I'm handing him a Bible.

Good grief. All the problems in the world today, and you come on here and bitch about people trying to do good deeds. You're gonna get struck by lightning.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I live in New Zealand now... but each year these Christian guys come to the school and at assembly they hand out Bibles to every student. I will talk to our principal today about it for the first time because the issue pisses me off. When my kids get into high school I will also let the Christian guys know how I feel about it. What are your thoughts?
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Either way its your kids and your concerns should be discussed with school administration. WHo knows maybe they deal with such things on a case by case policy, and they cant do that if you dont talk to them. At the very least you will be informed about what exactly their policy is.
 
phildozer9121 said:
I did not disagree with you at all they should be allowed to speak about it, I was referring back to OP's point that it's in bad taste to hand them out to everyone assuming that everyone is going to want to read it. Most of those other campaigns, you're allowed to decide if you want to take their flier or brochure; as it was described, it seems that these kids were issued bibles, forced to take them, which I mentioned before I think is dumb.
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Like I said earlier, I don't know the ins and outs of New Zealand customs and laws. I find it odd that an American expat is getting flustered by having his American sensibilities challenged when this overt religious practice seems to be ongoing and accepted by the society he's moved into. Even with the kids forced to take the Bibles, if it really does go that far, I still don't see what the problem is. There is a waste bin in the hall way and if that's frowned up, then there is a waste bin at home. These are the customs of the land, bend to the customs rather than having the customs be bent to suit you.
 
Peter Grimm said:
I'd tell you to piss off, dad. If I ever see your kid, I'm handing him a Bible.

Good grief. All the problems in the world today, and you come on here and bitch about people trying to do good deeds. You're gonna get struck by lightning.
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RiverDad said:
Like I said earlier, I don't know the ins and outs of New Zealand customs and laws. I find it odd that an American expat is getting flustered by having his American sensibilities challenged when this overt religious practice seems to be ongoing and accepted by the society he's moved into. Even with the kids forced to take the Bibles, if it really does go that far, I still don't see what the problem is. There is a waste bin in the hall way and if that's frowned up, then there is a waste bin at home. These are the customs of the land, bend to the customs rather than having the customs be bent to suit you.
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And back to my first point, if everyone there is religious how would that kid not face reprocussions for throwing the bible away in front of friends teachers etc. In principle I'd say you're probably right but the point is that this is just a little to close to an attempt to demonstrate that all of their friends follow this and they would be one of the only ones to reject it. I don't think it's appropriate.
 
phildozer9121 said:
And back to my first point, if everyone there is religious how would that kid not face reprocussions for throwing the bible away in front of friends teachers etc.
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OK, let's play the hypothetical. Let's pretend that NZ is a very publicly Christian country and this kid is going to be publicly shamed for throwing away the Bible in front of his peers. That's no different than kids shaming someone who utters racist speech or shaming the kid because he likes the fat girl who eats paste. These are the cultural customs. If you are the parent of the kid then you made a big mistake moving into that society. That overt Christianity, in this hypothetical example, is the custom of the land, so your kid had better get used to it. If you want a different experience, a diverse experience, then move to America where that kind of behavior cannot be permitted within a public school.

American values on this issue are not universally held in the West never mind non-Western nations.
 
Bending to the values of the lands you visit or CHOOSE to live in. Do you notice something different about Hilary Clinton in the photo?


clinton-obama-egypt-mosque-570x352.jpg
 
RiverDad said:
OK, let's play the hypothetical. Let's pretend that NZ is a very publicly Christian country and this kid is going to be publicly shamed for throwing away the Bible in front of his peers. That's no different than kids shaming someone who utters racist speech or shaming the kid because he likes the fat girl who eats paste.
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The school shouldn't be creating instances where that happens, especially when it has nothing to do with public education. I get it's a different place, but that doesn't mean OP shouldn't go in and voice his opinion to ask them to stop. Another hypothetical, a group comes into your kid's school and distributes the communist manifesto to everyone and asserts that it's what your kid should believe. I have to think you would have something to say about that, as would I.
 
phildozer9121 said:
Another hypothetical, a group comes into your kid's school and distributes the communist manifesto to everyone and asserts that it's what your kid should believe. I have to think you would have something to say about that, as would I.
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If I was living in the Soviet Union, I'd probably keep my mouth shut. If I was an American living in the Soviet Union, I'd still keep my mouth shut because it's not my place to instruct them on how to structure their society.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I live in New Zealand now... but each year these Christian guys come to the school and at assembly they hand out Bibles to every student. I will talk to our principal today about it for the first time because the issue pisses me off. When my kids get into high school I will also let the Christian guys know how I feel about it. What are your thoughts?
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I welcome learning about other religions and mythologies It is always good to expand your horizons. And the Bible is a significant book that provides insights into understanding 1-2 billion people. No one is saying that you have to believe anything in it, anymore than you believe that Harry Potter is true.
 
RiverDad said:
How would you feel if Greenpeace was outside handing out leaflets? How about a socialist political party? How about anti-Nuclear protesters or ant-whaling protestors?

Religion is just a set of ideas, just like the above. I'm not so sure that children need to be treated like fragile hothouse flowers blocked off from all ideas. Religion is a part of society, just like environmentalism is, same with odious feminism. Feminists should be able to yammer at passing students and hand out their leaflets.
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We are talking about children, not adults. Religious ideas are a far cry from those others... and I would be against socialists handing out stuff too. People need to keep their religious, political, abortion type opinions to themselves when it comes to children.
 
Eric7216 said:
I welcome learning about other religions and mythologies It is always good to expand your horizons. And the Bible is a significant book that provides insights into understanding 1-2 billion people. No one is saying that you have to believe anything in it, anymore than you believe that Harry Potter is true.
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Children. The issue is about adults trying to persuade children to a certain ideology. Would you be cool if I sat down with your kids and tried to get them to believe my ideologies instead of ones you felt were important?
 
Bodhisattva said:
Children. The issue is about adults trying to persuade children to a certain ideology. Would you be cool if I sat down with your kids and tried to get them to believe my ideologies instead of ones you felt were important?
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I certainly wouldn't move to a society which expressed values to which I was deeply opposed.
 
Peter Grimm said:
I'd tell you to piss off, dad. If I ever see your kid, I'm handing him a Bible.

Good grief. All the problems in the world today, and you come on here and bitch about people trying to do good deeds. You're gonna get struck by lightning.
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Very "Christian" of you. :lol:

Since you would be acting as a disrespectful encroaching letch... I would let you know thatwhen you tried handing my kid a bible.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Either way its your kids and your concerns should be discussed with school administration. WHo knows maybe they deal with such things on a case by case policy, and they cant do that if you dont talk to them. At the very least you will be informed about what exactly their policy is.
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This is exactly what I am going to do at our school even though my kids don't go here...
 
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