Issues with Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church

the period where black people could not hold the priesthood is a bit confusing its hard to imagine a justification for it

blarg said:

could just be that verse was a lie and Christ never said it that's consistent with the idea that things have been corrupted at least

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More likely that it just doesn't mean what some assume it to mean.

Bob Blaylock said:

More likely that it just doesn't mean what some assume it to mean.

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another possibility true

blarg said:

theirs still these any 1 can look at

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/fac-2?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/fac-1?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/fac-3?lang=eng

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Yes, and there are a ton of evidences in the three facsimiles as well as the text of Book of Abraham itself that supports Joseph as a true prophet. Like the Book of Mormon, LDS scholars have produced a mountain of evidence in support of it, while there is a ton of typical weak criticisms against it. Most people with biases against the religion, who already know it is false because of the bias and want to find evidences against it, just trust what anti-Mormon websites say about the religion. And without fail all of their criticisms are weak. It is easier to find a needle in a hay stack than find a 100% honest criticism from them. I highly recommend doing something most people who read anti-Mormon websites never do, read the LDS scholars' responses and the evidences they have produced. Jeff Lindsay with his website does a great job of summarizing all of this from the LDS side. Below are three links that cover many of the evidences in each of the three facsimiles. The fourth link below is to the main page to the Book of Abraham responses and evidences. I cannot add anymore than what you'll find in the links below.

LDS FAQ: The Book of Abraham, Part 2 - Evidence that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God

LDS FAQ: The Book of Abraham, Part 2 - Evidence that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God

LDS FAQ: The Book of Abraham, Part 2 - Evidence that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God


Mormon Answers, LDS FAQ: The Truth About the Book of Abraham, Part 1


Won't be back until late tonight where I'll try and finish the last of my ten responses.

blarg said:

could just be that verse was a lie and Christ never said it that's consistent with the idea that things have been corrupted at least

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As far as I know, Mormons trust the Bible, so they have to believe what is in it.

Bob Blaylock said:

More likely that it just doesn't mean what some assume it to mean.

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Then what does it mean? And what about Jesus' promise to be with the Church until the end of time?

Bob Blaylock said:

“It is light, intelligence, the power of God that make the wicked tremble and wish ‘Mormonism’ out of the way. If it were a false doctrine or a false theory, the Devil would not endeavor to disturb it, wicked men would not fear it, Heaven would not smile upon it, nor give a revelation to any man or woman to believe it, and we should have poor success; and Heaven forbid that we should have success or gain influence upon any other principle than the revelations of Jesus Christ.”—Brigham Young​

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Again, this doesn't prove anything. Being ridiculed is not evidence of being right. Need I point to the ridicule of Flat Earthers or Young Earth Creationists?

I'm totally with you on the point that being ridiculed doesn't make you wrong. As a Christian, our history of being persecuted for the faith attests to that. However, ridicule itself is not evidence for being correct.

And as far as I know, Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate gods, yet we have this quote: Alma 11:28-31: "Now Zeezrom said: ‘Is there more than one God?’ and [Amulek] answered, ‘No.’ And Zeezrom said unto him again, ‘How knowest thou these things?’ And he said: ‘An angel hath made them known unto me.’

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How Amulek would answer that question depends on the context. We only worship one God, Heavenly Father. So in that context there is only one God to us, capital G. The Godhead is "one" in the sense of unity not in being. So if Amulek stated the Godhead is one he would mean one in unity.

The Book of Mormon describes a vast pre-Columbian culture that supposedly existed for centuries in North and South America. It goes into amazingly specific detail describing the civilizations erected by the "Nephites" and "Lamanites," who were Jews that fled Palestine in three installments

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The Book of Mormon does not describe a vast continental civilization that existed in both North and South America. All the little details in the BoM support a very limited geographic setting. Small enough to travel across on foot in three days. Most LDS scholars believe the setting was in southern Mexico/northern Central America. And there were not three migrations from Palestine, only two, the other one was a much earlier migration from an unknown region, likely Asiatic.

spud_meister said:

Archaeologists have been over much of the Americas, they've found artifacts from Olmeks, Mayans, Cherokee, Vikings and Clovis, but nor Nephites or Lamanites. Several South American civilisations that existed at the time of the BoM kept written records, none mention anything found in the BoM. There's mention of plants and animals that did not exist in the Americas such as horses, sheep, elephants, cows, barley, wheat, silk, figs etc. Furthermore, not one American civilisation ever made iron, steel or brass.

I have a friend who is a Mormon and a Mexican, he is in Australia completing his thesis on Mayan civilisation, even he admits the BoM has no archaeological basis.

The Book of Mormon as a work of religious philosophy by one undecuated man is astounding, and lead to the founding of a church that does so much good all over the world. As a historical document though, it is complete and utter bull****.

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You obviously are not familiar with the following book: Amazon.com: Mormon's Codex: An Ancient American Book eBook: John L. Sorenson: Kindle Store. Also you can see my posts in the "Evidence for the Bible/God" thread in the Philosophical Discussions where I list many evidences from LDS scholars testing the Book of Mormon for historical forgery that show it is consistent with being an authentic ancient Semitic test fitting the 600 B.C. Hebrew/Egyptian window the text claims.

The following several posts will be what I posted in the "Evidence for the Bible/God" thread.

In a post apocalypse world a few thousand years in the future, if there was an archaeological discovery of an ancient text that tells a story of a group of 2014 Americans escaping the destruction of New York with exotic names such as Steve, Joe, Lauren, etc, the first thing that scientists would do to test it for forgery would be see if the names fit 2014 A.D. America(assuming when the ancient text was discovered many years before, very little was known about that window in history). Names are usually transliterated, so if the names fit the window, that pretty much seals that you are dealing with an authentic ancient text. The characters we find in the opening pages of the Book of Mormon are Sariah, Lehi, Nephi, Sam, Laman, Lemual, and Ishmael. Do these names fit the small window of 600 B.C. Judea/Near East?

Sariah- "The conjectural Hebrew spelling of Sariah would be s'ryh and would be pronounced something like Sar-yah. The skeptic might suggest that this name was an invention of Joseph Smith, since Sariah does not appear in the Bible as a female personal name. However, in a significant historical parallel to the Book of Mormon, the Hebrew name Sariah, spelled sryh, has been identified in a reconstructed form as the name of a Jewish woman living at Elephantine in Upper Egypt during the fifth century B.C.
The reference to Sariah of Elephantine is found in Aramaic Papyrus #22 (also called Cowley #22 or C-22) and appears in Aramaic Papyri of the Fifth Century B.C. [Arthur E. Cowley, ed. and trans." (Oxford: Clarendon, 1923), 67].

"In an article in The Improvement Era for April 1948, the author drew attention to the peculiar tendency of Book of Mormon names to concentrate in Upper Egypt, in and south of Thebes. At the time he was at a loss to explain such a strange phenomenon, but the answer is now clear. 7 When Jerusalem fell, most of Lehi's contemporaries who escaped went to Egypt, where their principal settlement seems to have been at Elephantine or Yeb, south of Thebes. It would seem, in fact, that the main colonization of Elephantine was at that time, and from Jerusalem. 8 What then could be more natural than that the refugees who fled to Egypt from Lehi's Jerusalem should have Book of Mormon names, since Lehi's people took their names from the same source?"



From Lehi in the Desert by Nibley: "There is a remarkable association between the names of Lehi and Ishmael which ties them both to the southern desert, where the legendary birthplace and central shrine of Ishmael was at a place called Be'er Lehai-ro'i. 50 Wellhausen rendered the name "spring of the wild-ox jawbone," 51 but Paul Haupt showed that Lehi (for so he reads the name) does not mean "jaw" but "cheek," 52 which leaves the meaning of the strange compound still unclear. One thing is certain, however: that Lehi is a personal name. Until recently this name was entirely unknown save as a place name, but now it has turned up at Elath and elsewhere in the south in a form that has been identified by Nelson Glueck with the name Lahai, which "occurs quite frequently either as a part of a compound, or as a separate name of a deity or a person, particularly in Minaean, Thamudic, and Arabic texts." 53 There is a Beit Lahi, "House of Lahi," among the ancient place names of the Arab country around Gaza, but the meaning of the name has here been lost. 54 If the least be said of it, the name Lehi is thoroughly at home among the people of the desert and, so far as we know, nowhere else.


The name of Lemuel is not a conventional Hebrew one, for it occurs only in one chapter of the Old Testament (Proverbs 31:1, 4), where it is commonly supposed to be a rather mysterious poetic substitute for Solomon. It is, however, like Lehi, at home in the south desert, where an Edomite text from "a place occupied by tribes descended from Ishmael" bears the title, "The Words of Lemuel, King of Massa." These people, though speaking a language that was almost Arabic, were yet well within the sphere of Jewish religion, for "we have nowhere else any evidence for saying that the Edomites used any other peculiar name for their deity" than "Yahweh, the God of Hebrews." 55
The only example of the name of Laman to be found anywhere to the writer's knowledge is its attribution to an ancient Mukam, or sacred place, in Palestine. Most of these Mukams are of unknown, and many of them of prehistoric, date. In Israel only the tribe of Manasseh built them. (Lehi's family in the Book of Mormon were from the tribe of Manasseh) 56 It is a striking coincidence that Conder saw in the name Leimun, as he renders it (the vowels must be supplied by guesswork), a possible corruption of the name Lemuel, thus bringing these two names, so closely associated in the Book of Mormon, into the most intimate relationship, and that in the one instance in which the name of Laman appears. 57 Far more popular among the Arabs as among the Nephites was the name Alma, which can mean a young man, a coat of mail, a mountain, or a sign.

58 While Sam is a perfectly good Egyptian name, it is also the normal Arabic form of Shem, the son of Noah."

Nephi is an Egyptian hero name. "Recently there have discovered lists of names that Nebuchadnezzar brought back to Babylon from his expeditions in Syria and Palestine. Among them are a respectable portion of Egyptian names. According to D. H. Thomas, this list shows that it was popular at the time to name children after Egyptian hero kings of the past.[5] The name Aha, which a Nephite general bestowed on his son, means "warrior" and was borne by the legendary first hero king of Egypt. (The Book of Mormon names) Himni, Korihor, Paanchi, Pakumeni, Sam, Zeezrom, Ham, Manti, Nephi and Zenoch are all Egyptian hero names"



Do these names fit the small window of 600 B.C. Judea? They are an absolute bullseye.

The opening three verses in the Book of Mormon:

1 I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.
2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.
3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.



LDS scholar Hugh Nibley:
Nephi's introduction is typical of Egyptian writings.

The first three verses of 1 Nephi, sharply set off from the rest of the text, are a typical colophon, a literary device that is highly characteristic of Egyptian compositions. Typical is the famous Bremer-Rhind Papyrus, which opens with a colophon containing

the date,
the titles of Nasim, the author,
the names of his parents and a word in praise of their virtues, with special mention of his father's prophetic calling,
a curse against anyone who might 'take the book away,' probably 'due to fear lest a sacred book should get into impure hands.'

Compare this with Nephi's colophon:

his name,
the merits of his parents, with special attention to the learning of his father,
a solemn avowal (corresponding to Nasim's curse) that the record is true, and the assertion, 'I make it with mine own hand' (1 Nephi 1:3)--an indispensable condition of every true colophon, since the purpose of a colophon is to establish the identity of the actual writer-down (not merely the ultimate author) of the text.

Egyptian literary writings regularly close with the formula iw-f-pw 'thus it is,' 'and so it is.' Nephi ends the main sections of his book with the phrase, 'And thus it is, Amen' (1 Nephi 9:6; 14:30; 22:31)." (Lehi in the Desert/The World of the Jaredites, p. 15.)



Matthew L. Bowen:
"A proposed etymology of the Book of Mormon name Nephi is that it derives from the ancient Egyptian word nfr which is an adjective that means "good," "fine," or "goodly" and as noun denotes "kindness" or "goodness". By Lehi's time, this word was probably pronounced "nefe" (NEH-fee)...Nephi's use of words that translate into English as "goodly" and "goodness" makes this passage even more beautiful and meaningful if we also understand the name Nephi to denote "goodly" or "goodness." The wordplay perhaps suggests why the name Nephi so befits its bearer: he is nf, or "goodly", because he was born of "goodly parents" and is one endowed with a "knowledge of the goodness and mysteries of God."




And it came to pass. This phrase in the 1830 edition of the BoM is used a ton. "Mark Twain joked that if the phrase, 'And it came to pass,' were removed from the Book of Mormon, it would be just a pamphlet. However, the phrase is very typical of ancient texts."
Hugh Nibley
"Nothing delighted the critics more than the monotonous repetition of 'it came to pass' at the beginning of thousands of sentences in the Book of Mormon. Here again is something that Western tradition found completely unfamiliar. Instead of punctuation, the original manuscript of the Book of Mormondivides up its phrases by introducing each by an 'and,' 'behold,' 'now,' or 'It came to pass . . . .' Simply outrageous--as English literature, but it is standard Egyptian practice. Egyptian historical texts, Grapow points out, 'begin in monotonous fashion' always with the same stock words; at some periods every speech is introduced with the unnecessary 'I opened my mouth.' Dramatic texts are held together by the constant repetition of Khpr-n, 'It happened that' or 'It came to pass.' In Egyptian these expressions were not merely adornments, as Grapow points out, they are a grammatical necessity and may not be omitted. Paul Humbert has traced the origin of prophetic biblical expressions to archaic oracular formulas. At any rate they are much commoner in Egyptian than in the Bible, just as they are much commoner in the Book of Mormon. However bad they are in English, they are nothing to be laughed at as Egyptian." (Since Cumorah, p. 29)


The word Mormon is Egyptian. "Mor" means "love" and "mon" means "established forever".

Here is a list of some of the Egyptian names in the Book of Mormon(BM) and their matches in the Old World of ancient Egypt (OW). Notice how many of Book of Mormon characters and those found in Egyptian history that carried the same name, share common attributes. ("The reader must remember that in Semitic languages, including Hebrew and Egyptian, vowels do no exist, and thus the more important factor are the consonant roots, which are spot on in the names of these figures in the Book of Mormon and other Egyptian names. Furthermore, the presence of a variation in vowels in these names is, as Nibley notes, "...strong confirmation of their common origin, since names are bound to undergo some change with time and distance, whereas if the resemblance were perfect, we should be forced to attribute it, however fantastic it might seem, to mere coincidence. There must be differences; and what is more, those differences should not be haphazard but display definite tendencies. This brings us to a most impressive aspect of Book of Mormon names.")


Aha (BM), son of Nephite commander in chief.
Aha (OW), a name of the first Pharaoh; it means "warrior" and is a common word.

Aminadab (BM), Nephite missionary in time of the judges.
Amanathabi (OW), chief of a Canaanite city under Egyptian domination. The name is "reformed" Egyptian.

Ammon (BM), the commonest name in the Book of Mormon.
Ammon (Amon, Amun) (OW), the commonest name in the Egyptian Empire: the great universal God of the Empire.

Ammoni-hah (BM), name of a country and city.
Ammuni-ra (OW), prince of Beyrut under Egyptian rule.

Cezoram (BM), Nephite chief judge.
Chiziri (OW), Egyptian governor of a Syrian city.

Giddonah (BM), a) high priest who judge Korihor, b) father of Amulek.
Dji-dw-na (OW), the Egyptian name for Sidon.

Gidgiddoni and Gidgiddonah (BM), Nephite generals.
Djed-djhwt-iw-f and Djed-djhwti-iw-s plus ankh (OW), Egyptian proper names meaning "Thoth hath said: he shall live," and "Thoth hath said: she shall live," respectively. On this pattern the two Nephite names mean "Thoth hath said I shall live," and "Thoth hath said: we shall live," respectively.

Gimgim-no (BM), city of Gimgim, compare Biblical No-Amon, "City of Amon."
Kenkeme (OW), Egyptian city, cf. Kipkip, seat of the Egyptian dynasty in Nubia.

Hem (BM), brother of the earlier Ammon.
Hem (OW), means "servant," specifically of Ammon, as in the title Hem tp n 'Imn, "chief servant of Ammon" held by the high priest of Thebes.

Helaman (BM), great Nephite prophet.
Her-amon (OW), "in the presence of Amon," as in the Egyptian proper name Heri-i-her-imn. Semitic "l" is always written "r" in Egyptian, which has no "l." Conversely, the Egyptian "r" is often written "l" in Semitic languages.

Himni (BM), a son of King Mosiah.
Hmn (OW), a name of the Egyptian hawk-god, symbol of the emperor.

Korihor (BM), a political agitator who was seized by the people of Ammon.
Kherihor (also written Khurhor, etc.) (OW), great high priest of Ammon who seized the throne of Egypt at Thebes, cir. 1085 B.C.

Manti (BM), the name of a Nephite soldier, a land, a city, and a hill.
Manti (OW), Semitic form of an Egyptian proper name, e.g., Manti-mankhi, a prince in Upper Egypt cir. 650 B.C. It is a late form of Month, god of Hermonthis.

Morianton (BM), the name of a Nephite city and its founder, cf. the Nephite province Moriantum.
Meriaton and Meriamon (OW), names of Egyptian princes, "Beloved of Aton" and "Beloved of Amon" respectively.

Nephi (BM), founder of the Nephite nation.
Nehi, Nehri (OW), famous Egyptian noblemen. Nfy was the name of an Egyptian captain. Since BM insists on "ph," Nephi is closer to Nihpi, original name of the god Pa-nepi, which may even have been Nephi. (Note: I have covered the name "Nephi" in an earlier post. See "Some Notes on the Name Nephi".)

Paanchi (BM), son of Pahoran, Sr., and pretender to the chief-judgeship.
Paanchi (OW), son of Kherihor, a) chief high priest of Amon, b) ruler of the south who conquered all of Egypt and was high priest of Amon at Thebes.

Pahoran (BM), a) great chief judge, b) son of the same.
Pa-her-an (OW), ambassador of Egypt in Palestine, where his name has the "reformed" reading Pahura; in Egyptian as Pa-her-y it means "the Syrian" or Asiatic.

Pacumeni (BM), son of Pahoran.
Pakamen (OW), Egyptian proper name meaning "blind man"; also Pamenches (Gk. Pachomios), commander of the south and high priest of Horus.

Pachus (BM), revolutionary leader and usurper of the throne.
Pa-ks and Pach-qs (OW), Egyptian proper name. Compare Pa-ches-i, "he is praised."

Sam (BM), brother of Nephi.
Sam Tawi (OW), Egyptian "uniter of the lands," title taken by the brother of Nehri upon mounting the throne.

Zemna-ri-hah (BM), robber chief.
Zmn-ha-re (OW), Egyptian proper name: the same elements as the above in different order—a common Egyptian practice.

Zeniff (BM), ruler of Nephite colony.
Znb, Snb (OW), very common elements in Egyptian proper names, cf. Senep-ta.

Zenoch (BM), according to various Nephite writers, an ancient Hebrew prophet.
Zenekh (OW), Egyptian proper name; once a serpent-god.

I recommend reading at least the first chapter of the Book of Mormon to get a feel of Lehi's world as the next bit of evidence will compare it with the world of the Lachish Letters, which is a peek into the same window https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/1?lang=eng

From wikipedia on the siege of Jerusalem: "Following the siege of 597 BC, Nebuchadnezzar installed Zedekiah as tributary king of Judah at the age of twenty-one. However, Zedekiah revolted against Babylon, and entered into an alliance with Pharaoh Hophra, king of Egypt. Nebuchadnezzar responded by invading Judah and began a siege of Jerusalem in January 589 BC. During this siege, which lasted about thirty months, "every worst woe befell the city, which drank the cup of God's fury to the dregs". In 587 BC, the eleventh year of Zedekiah's reign, Nebuchadnezzar broke through Jerusalem's walls, conquering the city. Zedekiah and his followers attempted to escape, but were captured on the plains of Jericho and taken to Riblah. There, after seeing his sons killed, Zedekiah was blinded, bound, and taken captive to Babylon, where he remained a prisoner until his death.
After the fall of Jerusalem, the Babylonian general Nebuzaraddan was sent to complete its destruction. Jerusalem was plundered and Solomon's Temple was destroyed. Most of the elite were taken into captivity in Babylon. The city was razed to the ground. Only a small number of people were permitted to remain to tend to the land. Gedaliah was made governor of the remnant of Judah, the Yehud Province, with a Chaldean guard stationed at Mizpah. On hearing this news, the Jews who were in Moab, Ammon, Edom, and in other countries returned to Judah. Gedaliah was assassinated two months later, and the population that had remained and those who had returned then fled to Egypt for safety.

If the 597 B.C. date is correct from wikipedia on the 1st yr reign of Zedekiah then Lehi began as a prophet warning Israel that year, and shortly thereafter Lehi's family fled Israel journeying in the south desert for eight years before building a ship and crossing the ocean to the Americas. That would put Lehi's group crossing the ocean to the Americas at about the same time the Babylonian siege began in 589 B.C.

Nephi Ch 5:
1 And it came to pass that after we had come down into the wilderness unto our father, behold, he was filled with joy, and also my mother, Sariah, was exceedingly glad, for she truly had mourned because of us.
2 For she had supposed that we had perished in the wilderness; and she also had complained against my father, telling him that he was a visionary man; saying: Behold thou hast led us forth from the land of our inheritance, and my sons are no more, and we perish in the wilderness.
3 And after this manner of language had my mother complained against my father.
4 And it had come to pass that my father spake unto her, saying: I know that I am a visionary man; for if I had not seen the things of God in a vision I should not have known the goodness of God, but had tarried at Jerusalem, and had perished with my brethren.
5 But behold, I have obtained a land of promise, in the which things I do rejoice; yea, and I know that the Lord will deliver my sons out of the hands of Laban, and bring them down again unto us in the wilderness.

It is interesting that in the Lachish Letters, contemporary window with the opening scenes in the BoM, we have confirmation about prophets running around undermining the morale of the people and execution orders for them, but also the term used for these prophets "characterizing the man of prophetic calling as ha-piqqeah, which Torczyner, (the 1938 publisher) translates as “the open-eyed or visionary man”. The Lachish letters and the opening scenes of the Book of Mormon paint a very consistent picture. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1981/12/the-lachish-letters-documents-from-lehis-day?lang=eng

The names Lehi and that of his two oldest sons, Laman and Lemuel, as well as Ishmael, are names of the south desert. Laman and Lemuel are pendant names, commonly given to the two oldest sons in this region. Ishmael, the family that left with Lehi's family, and whose sons and daughters married, likely was a relative of Lehi, possibly his brother, as Nibley points out “it has ever been the custom among the desert people for a man to marry the daughter of his paternal uncle." Lehi tells us he is from the tribe of Manasseh. Nibley states “Now of all the tribes of Israel, Manasseh was the one which lived farthest out in the desert, came into most frequent contact with the Arabs, intermarried with them most frequently, and at the same time had the closest traditional bonds with Egypt."


"Nephi says that Lehi set up camp by a "river of water." What does he mean? What other kind of river is there? Even today, the traveler in Arabia will distinguish between the dry river, "the river of sand," and the near torrents produced by spring run off. Dr. Nibley points out that, "The very fact that Nephi uses the term 'a river of water' (1 Nephi 2:6), to say nothing of Lehi's ecstasies at the sight of it, shows that they are used to thinking in terms of dry rivers."(10)
Lehi, the Desert Poet

"For the people of the desert there is no more miraculous and lovely thing on earth than continually running water. Bertram Thomas gives us an excellent example. Describing how his Arabs reacted upon reaching a "river of water," he says that they "hailed it with a song in praise of the 'continuous and flowing rain,' whose bounty filled the bed of the wadi, 'flowing along between sand and stream course.'" Lehi was also moved to impressive and spontaneous poetic expression by the sight of his "river of water."
And when my father saw that the waters of the river emptied into the fountain of the Red Sea, he spake unto Laman, saying:
O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness!
And he also spake unto Lemuel:
O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord! (1 Nephi 2:9-10)
There is a primitive Arabic poetic form called a qasid. Dr. Nibley says that it's the "oldest actual poetry of the desert." The qasid always consists of a pair of poems which follow a very precise pattern. Nibley gives these criteria:

They are inspired by the sight of water gushing from a spring or running down a valley.
They are addressed to one or (usually) two traveling companions.
They praise the beauty and the excellence of the scene, calling it to the attention of the hearer as an object lesson.
The hearer is urged to be like the thing he beholds.
These are extemporaneous poems recited with great feeling.
They are very short, each couplet being a complete poem in itself.
One verse must be followed by its "brother," making a perfectly matched pair.

The most mocked aspect of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in Joseph's day was the golden plates. Joseph gave several details about the plates: buried in a cement box on the side of a large hill, title page being in the back of the record, some parts of the record being sealed.

Hiding Sacred Records like the Golden Plates: A Well Established Ancient Practice

Metal Plates and the Book of Mormon

There are 12 eye witness testimonies(counting Joseph Smith) that can be read at the beginning of the BoM that testify of the truthfulness of the work. There is no evidence any of these men ever denied their testimonies, and much evidence that they testified throughout their lives that their testimonies in the front of the BoM is true. Some went out of their way on their deathbeds to make sure the world knew that they stand by their testimonies. Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum sealed their testimony with their blood.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/three?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/eight?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/js?lang=eng


Circumstantial Evidence of the Book of Mormon: The Testimony of the Witnesses

Interesting Oliver Cowdery story: Oliver Cowdery Testifies In Court About the Golden Plates and Book of Mormon - on Moroni's Unofficial Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Page

As a historical document though, it is complete and utter bull****.

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Yeah right.

blarg said:

the period where black people could not hold the priesthood is a bit confusing its hard to imagine a justification for it

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In the Bible the priesthood has always been denied to groups of people. Only the first born, only the tribe of Levi, the gentiles were not even taught the gospel until the NT apostles had a revelation. The Book of Mormon states the following:

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

The 19th century Latter Day Saints were anti-slavery, and took some heat from their non Mormon neighbors because of it. Joseph Smith ran for the U.S. presidency with ending slavery as a major part of his campaign: “The Declaration of Independence ‘holds these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;’ but at the same time some two or three millions of people are held as slaves for life, because the spirit in them is covered with a darker skin.” 12 Instead of simply calling for the abolition of slavery, Joseph Smith’s platform would have Congress “pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of public lands, and from the deduction of pay from members of Congress.” 13[/I]

All people regardless of race could be baptized and there was no segregation in attending church. Brigham Young announced that blacks of African descent could not as of yet hold the priesthood. When he announced this he stated one day they would be able to hold it, but that day had not come yet. It has never been revealed why there was a delay. Nothing canonical. The common belief of 19th century Eurpoean/white Americans was that blacks held the curse of Cain. There were LDS church leaders such as Brigham Young, who believed this was why there was a delay. Whether this was the case or not, prophets are only prophets when they are speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost. They are imperfect men who carry the cultural baggage of the culture they grew up in, and anything not canonized may or may not be correct. And again there has been no canonized reason given why blacks were denied the priesthood, just as there is no reason given why so many people were denied the priesthood in the Bible. I have a theory that the priesthood can only be used by those with free agency, and given slavery, imperialism, and pre-civil rights, the time was not right for those of African descent. All of us have ancestors who didn't have access to the priesthood at one time or another. The latter day Restoration may be the only time in history where the priesthood has been given to any worthy person from any lineage. The LDS also believe anyone who didn't have full access to all the blessings of the gospel in this life, but who would have embraced it if they had the opportunity, will not be denied any of the blessings in the eternities.

phattonez said:

Because from what I've read the church teaches as God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as distinct entities, that is, distinct gods.

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a spirit; and these three constitute three distinct personages and three distinct gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 370).

The Father and the Son are worshipped by members of the Church, and they teach that they are distinct gods, but yet we have this quote: "For God [the Father] said unto me: 'Worship God [the Father] for him only shalt thou serve'... Call upon God [the Father] in the name of mine only begotten [Jesus] and worship me'... Depart from me, Satan, for this one God only [the Father] will I worship, which is the God of Glory" (Moses 1:15-20). This signals some confusion: if they are separate, how can members of the church worship both if Moses reportedly says to worship only the father?

Three separate gods - that's polytheism.

Click to expand...

You don't understand the LDS religion. We only worship God the Father. Jesus we love and is our eldest brother who is the mediator between each of us and God. We are thoroughly Biblical, maybe not how you interpret the Bible.

Anyway I guess I've met my quota. The best way to know the truth is the promise made in the closing of the Book of Mormon:

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

14 yo Joseph gave a perfect example on how to find the truth:

“Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, ‘Lo, here!‘ and others, ‘Lo, there!’ Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist.”
“During this time of great excitement my mind was called up to serious reflection and great uneasiness; but though my feelings were deep and often poignant, still I kept myself aloof from all these parties, though I attended their several meetings as often as occasion would permit. In process of time my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect, and I felt some desire to be united with them; but so great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was, and so unacquainted with men and things, to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong.”
“My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.”
“In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right, or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?”
“While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”
“Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.”
“At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to ‘ask of God,’ concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.”
“So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.”
“After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.”
“But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.”