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The Book of Revelation is not about the end of the world

phattonez said:
Refer me to the verses and I'll see what I can do with them, but it's not nearly as much about the Second Coming as most seem to think it is.
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OK, give me some time and I will put something together.
 
The Book of Revelations is about paradise regained. That's the message.
 
tosca1 said:
The Book of Revelations is about paradise regained. That's the message.
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Tosca's back!

Do you want to respond to the references that I showed about how it's about heavenly worship?
 
phattonez said:
Tosca's back!

Do you want to respond to the references that I showed about how it's about heavenly worship?
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Indeed it shows heavenly worships. The worships/rituals are concentrated on Christ. Who is about to lead His army.

It is actually about the waging of the ultimate war, how the judgements will come about, the end of Satan and his minions....could these worships and rituals be related to the long-awaited event - the rising of the dead - that's about to take place?

Could it be like the fanfare or celebration practiced by kingdoms before they go to war, anticipating their victory?
 
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tosca1 said:
Indeed it shows heavenly worships. The worships/rituals are concentrated on Christ.

But it is actually about the waging of the ultimate war, how the judgements come about, the end of Satan and his minions....could these worships and rituals be related to the long-awaited event - the rising of the dead - that's about to take place?

Could it be like the fanfare or celebration practiced by kingdoms before they go to war, anticipating their victory?
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The one part that I think easily gets misconstrued is Revelation 12. It sounds a lot more like a description of the birth of Jesus to Mary, the flight to Egypt, and a general description of Israel's history.
 
phattonez said:
The one part that I think easily gets misconstrued is Revelation 12. It sounds a lot more like a description of the birth of Jesus to Mary, the flight to Egypt, and a general description of Israel's history.
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There's also the depiction of people with palm branches - reminiscent of celebrating the entry of Jesus on a donkey - but this time in Revelation, it's the celebration of the Ruler upon His throne.


Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
 
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tosca1 said:
There's also the depiction of people with palm branches - reminiscent of celebrating the entry of Jesus on a donkey - but this time in Revelation, it's the celebration of the Ruler upon His throne.
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What chapter is that?
 
tosca1 said:
See above. Revelation 7.
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Well sure, it's the faithful in Heaven worshiping God. The 144,000 are traditionally symbolic of the Church.
 
OK, I have not had time to do a thorough breakdown. I thought I would just give a summary of the way I see the Book of Revelation.

There is basically a threefold division: past, present, and future.

Chapter 1 is related to the past as John is told to “write the things which thou hast seen”.

Chapters 2-3 are about the present (from John’s perspective), which concerns the letters to the seven churches.

Chapters 4-22 is about the future, “the things which shall be hereafter”. So, for me chapters 4-22 which are most of the Book of Revelation are about events surrounding the Second Coming. Here is a short summary:

Part 1: (Chapter 1)
“The things which thou hast seen”. A vision of the glorified Christ.

Part2: (Chapters 2-3)
Letters to the seven churches.

Part3: (Chapters 4-22)
Heavenly throne, twenty-four elders, etc. (chapter 4)
Seven-sealed scroll (chapter 5)
The seven seals (chapters 6-8)
The seven trumpets (chapters 8-9)
The second interval (chapter 10)
The two witnesses (chapter 11)
The seven personages (chapter 12)
Third interval (chapter 14)
The seven vials (chapter 15)
Fourth interval (chapter 16)
Judgment of Babylon (chapters 17-18)
The Second Coming (chapter 19)
The millennial kingdom (chapter 20)
The eternal state (chapter 21)
Epilogue (chapter 22)
 
Enginerdy said:
Part3: (Chapters 4-22)
Heavenly throne, twenty-four elders, etc. (chapter 4)
Seven-sealed scroll (chapter 5)
The seven seals (chapters 6-8)
The seven trumpets (chapters 8-9)
The second interval (chapter 10)
The two witnesses (chapter 11)
The seven personages (chapter 12)
Third interval (chapter 14)
The seven vials (chapter 15)
Fourth interval (chapter 16)
Judgment of Babylon (chapters 17-18)
The Second Coming (chapter 19)
The millennial kingdom (chapter 20)
The eternal state (chapter 21)
Epilogue (chapter 22)
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So I guess that we agree about the first two parts, the first 3 chapters. Where we really differ then is in all of these other chapters. Chapter 4 to me seems obviously about heavenly worship, thus the image of incense and the elders worshipping God. The next few chapters also are about worship. Chapter 12 is about Mary but also about Israel and its history. Notice how the first part of chapter 12 is about Jesus being born to Mary.

Notice also the end of chapter 11 John brings up the Ark of the Covenant, which had been lost for centuries, and then brings up Mary. Mary has historically been referred to as the Ark of the New Covenant.
 
phattonez said:
So I guess that we agree about the first two parts, the first 3 chapters. Where we really differ then is in all of these other chapters. Chapter 4 to me seems obviously about heavenly worship, thus the image of incense and the elders worshipping God. The next few chapters also are about worship.
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It is both a vision of the future John was shown of heavenly worship and it is used as a model for some Christians as heavenly worship. I think that the only reason there is heavenly worship in the Catholic church is because John had a future vision of it.

phattonez said:
Chapter 12 is about Mary but also about Israel and its history. Notice how the first part of chapter 12 is about Jesus being born to Mary. Notice also the end of chapter 11 John brings up the Ark of the Covenant, which had been lost for centuries, and then brings up Mary. Mary has historically been referred to as the Ark of the New Covenant.
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OK, even if we were to not count chapter 12 and part of chapter 11 as a vision of the future, it still leaves most of the Book of Revelation about events surrounding the Second Coming.
 
Enginerdy said:
It is both a vision of the future John was shown of heavenly worship and it is used as a model for some Christians as heavenly worship. I think that the only reason there is heavenly worship in the Catholic church is because John had a future vision of it.
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Except that many of the symbols are based off of Jewish worship that was well established at the time.

OK, even if we were to not count chapter 12 and part of chapter 11 as a vision of the future, it still leaves most of the Book of Revelation about events surrounding the Second Coming.
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Sure, but it does take a while to go chapter by chapter as I'm sure you know. :2razz:

I think I posted a picture where it shows all the references and their respective chapters. Did you see that?
 
phattonez said:
Except that many of the symbols are based off of Jewish worship that was well established at the time.
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That doesn’t change what I stated. I still maintain that the Catholic church practices heavenly worship because of John’s revelation of heavenly worship he saw as part of the events surrounding the Second Coming. That Christianity has Jewish influences (the Torah) doesn’t change this.

phattonez said:
Sure, but it does take a while to go chapter by chapter as I'm sure you know. :2razz:

I think I posted a picture where it shows all the references and their respective chapters. Did you see that?
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Yes, it does take time to go through chapter by chapter. Perhaps you could post a link to a chapter by chapter analysis/summary that you agree with?

Sorry, I don’t remember seeing the picture you posted. Could you point me to it or re-post it?
 
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