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Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?[W:200]

A

Alter2Ego

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ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

The central doctrine within the majority of the 41,000 denominations within Christendom is the teaching that the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible is split up into three different persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit) and that these three persons are co-equal and co-eternal and are then combined into a "Godhead."

It might surprise some to learn that among pagan nations that did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible, there were trinity gods in existence centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on earth in the 1st Century AD, and there were pagan trinities in existence during the 1st Century AD, while Jesus was on earth. Below are three such examples, followed by the questions for debate.


1. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

Egypt Trinity #1.jpg​


2. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

Babylon Trinity.jpg​


3. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

Palmyra Trinity #2.jpg​


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of Trinity? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptural examples. Bold or colorize or italicize the words that you are focusing on within each of the quoted verses (don't bold/colorize/italicize the entire verse if you are not focusing on all of the words in the verse), and then explain why you have concluded that the bolded/colorized/italicized words are proof of trinity.


2. Why is it that trinity is found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance, as noted by two of the above examples, there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.


3. If the Trinity is a Bible teaching, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity?


4. How is it that the Trinity teaching did not become "Christian" teaching until the Christianized Romans (who later called themselves Roman Catholics) copied the philosophy from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?


5. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Looks like you copied and pasted this from somewhere. If you do that, you're supposed to give credit to the original, or else it is plagiarism.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Goshin said:
Looks like you copied and pasted this from somewhere. If you do that, you're supposed to give credit to the original, or else it is plagiarism.
Click to expand...

ALTER2EGO -to- GOSHIN:

I originated all of the statements in my opening post. I have debated this topic at other websites. Although I tend to debate the same topics wherever I go, I do not simply start threads with no intention of debating them (which would equate to spam). I am interested in discussing the topics with as many as I can, which is why I move around to various debate forums.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- GOSHIN:

I originated all of the statements in my opening post. I have debated this topic at other websites. Although I tend to debate the same topics wherever I go, I do not simply start threads with no intention of debating them (which would equate to spam). I am interested in discussing the topics with as many as I can, which is why I move around to various debate forums.
Click to expand...


Ok then.
 
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Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
Click to expand...


It's no great stretch: the Trinity as it's taught in Christianity isn't necessarily lifted direct from scripture. It was a separate set of teachings devised by the HOly Catholic Church inspired by different things mentioned in the Bible.

Unlike other religions that have multiple, different gods and goddesses in 3's and mores - (Supposedly) the Holy Trinity in this sense is used to represent the different parts of God; different components. They are not 3 separate 'people'
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Logicman said:
Here's some of the scriptures that support the concept of the Trinity in the Bible:

Trinity In the Scriptures

In addition, even some of the ancient Jewish rabbis wrote about the mystery of the Trinity.

Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries
Click to expand...

ALTER2EGO -to- LOGICMAN:

I am sorry, but I don't do links. Whenever I provide a weblink, it is placed beneath a direct quotation that can be found at the weblink.

Suppose you quote your first four (4) verses. Then explain to the rest of us where the verses indicate one god in three persons that are co-equal and co-eternal?

I will watch for your first four (4) scriptural quotations along that line.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Aunt Spiker said:
It's no great stretch: the Trinity as it's taught in Christianity isn't necessarily lifted direct from scripture. It was a separate set of teachings devised by the HOly Catholic Church.
'
Click to expand...

It's in the earliest scriptures:

Trinity In the Scriptures

And it was taught by the earliest church fathers:

Answers About the Trinity 1 Church Teaching

Those predate the Holy Catholic Church.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Aunt Spiker said:
It's no great stretch: the Trinity as it's taught in Christianity isn't necessarily lifted direct from scripture. It was a separate set of teachings devised by the HOly Catholic Church inspired by different things mentioned in the Bible.
Click to expand...

ALTER2EGO -to- AUNT SPIKER:

You said it well: trinity "isn't necessarily lifted direct from scripture."


Aunt Spiker said:
It's no great stretch: the Trinity as it's taught in Christianity isn't necessarily lifted direct from scripture. It was a separate set of teachings devised by the HOly Catholic Church inspired by different things mentioned in the Bible.
Click to expand...

Since you seem to believe the trinity was "inspired by different things mentioned in the Bible," I hope you will direct our attention to whatever those mentionings are by quoting scripture.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Aunt Spiker said:
Unlike other religions that have multiple, different gods and goddesses in 3's and mores - (Supposedly) the Holy Trinity in this sense is used to represent the different parts of God; different components. They are not 3 separate 'people'
Click to expand...

ALTER2EGO -to- AUNT SPIKER:

Since this is a Bible discussion in which proof is needed from the Bible itself, please quote your first four (4) verses of scriptures that indicate the Father (Jehovah), the Son (Jesus Christ), and the holy spirit/holy ghost are simply "different components" or "different parts of God."


Aunt Spiker said:
Unlike other religions that have multiple, different gods and goddesses in 3's and mores - (Supposedly) the Holy Trinity in this sense is used to represent the different parts of God; different components. They are not 3 separate 'people'
Click to expand...

Really? according to the definition of trinity, given by the Catholic Church, there are three separate persons.

Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be THREE PERSONS, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."
Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity | Seven whole days

Thirty-Nine Articles
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

X Factor to ALTER2EGO

Welcome to the forum.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Wow, I'm shocked, you managed to find polytheistic religions with more than one god, clearly that means Christianity copied them.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

You do know that Kemetism had more than 3 gods right? and that at different points in time, the gods were portrayed differently...

Like for instance, you had 2 gods: Ammon and Ra... who then became one, Amon Ra.
Pakhet was another "merger" of 2 dieties, Sekhmet and Bast (Or Bask depending on who you read).
So a lot of deities, in politheistic religions, are created, made, shaped, morphed...

The fact that you pick 3 gods to satisfy your criteria is academical dishonesty.

I know a lot of people, even on TV, flaunt around theories that Christianity is inspired by Kemetism or other polytheistic religions, but that's BS. It's preferential picking of facts and disregarding the big picture. And that's wrong.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

I dont' know where the Trinity came from, perhaps from Platonism, perhaps from paganism, but it's certainly not in the bible. I'ts cute that logicman copies and pastes links from evangelical websites ... but when it comes to actually debating the scriptures themselves, the Trinity does not hold up.

If you want to see a dabate on it between me and logicman here we go http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...discussion-logic-man-nature-jesus-christ.html. :)
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

RGacky3 said:
I dont' know where the Trinity came from, perhaps from Platonism, perhaps from paganism, but it's certainly not in the bible. I'ts cute that logicman copies and pastes links from evangelical websites ... but when it comes to actually debating the scriptures themselves, the Trinity does not hold up.

If you want to see a dabate on it between me and logicman here we go http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...discussion-logic-man-nature-jesus-christ.html. :)
Click to expand...

ALTER2EGO -to- RGACKY3:

The trinity doctrine was copied from paganism. The Romans had a long history of polytheism (worship of many gods). When they adopted Christianity as the religion of the Roman State, they simply brought along their pagan ideologies with them.


BTW: I responded yesterday to Logicman, but for some reason, my response to him never showed up in the thread. I suspect it was because I quoted everything he wrote at Post 5, including the weblinks in his post. As a newcomer, I do not believe I am permitted to have weblinks in my posts even when they are part of someone else's quotation. Had I known that, I would have deleted the weblinks.



@ LOGICMAN:

In the response that I tried to send you, I believe I asked that you present your first four (4) verses of scriptures that indicate the Father (Jehovah), the Son (Jesus Christ), and the holy spirit/holy ghost are co-equal and co-eternal and are the same god. I also informed you in that response that I do not do links unless they are accompanied by a direct quotation from the source of the weblink.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Alter2Ego said:
ALTER2EGO -to- RGACKY3:

The trinity doctrine was copied from paganism. The Romans had a long history of polytheism (worship of many gods). When they adopted Christianity as the religion of the Roman State, they simply brought along their pagan ideologies with them.
Click to expand...


Two quick points, this assertion that there is a direct relationship between Constantine's acceptance of Christianity and the creation of the Trinity as a central concept is common among those for whom that point in time is a convenience. The fact is that the concept of the Trinity is named and taught in the First Century, taught for 200 years before Constantine by the likes of Polycarp, Justin, Turtullian, Hippolytus, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Denis of Alexandria et al. Certainly there are those who hold a differing view then as there are today.


But the larger point is that while a literal translation of the Bible is a fundamentalist approach to Christianity it is not required by the larger majority of main stream Christians. Catholicism certainly does not teach a literal interpretation of the Bible so you leave out the majority of Christians and Christian denominations if the word Trinity, must appear in the Bible in order to be a central fact within the Christian faith. Certainly there are numerous references to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the interpretation of those persons is as old as Christianity itself and certainly a worthy conversation, but settled within Christian faith 2000 years ago.

We are aware of the fact that no where in the Bible is the word Trinity applied. There are several things within Catholicism and Christianity that are not specifically mentioned in the Bible that are central teachings.
 
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Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Use the quote function so people get the notification and link to your reply when you respond to them.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

gilbertc1908 said:
Two quick points, this assertion that there is a direct relationship between Constantine's acceptance of Christianity and the creation of the Trinity as a central concept is common among those for whom that point in time is a convenience. The fact is that the concept of the Trinity is named and taught in the First Century, taught for 200 years before Constantine by the likes of Polycarp, Justin, Turtullian, Hippolytus, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Denis of Alexandria et al. Certainly there are those who hold a differing view then as there are today.
Click to expand...

ALTER2EGO -to- GILBERTC1908:

Actually, I stated in my OP that the trinity dogma was in existence in pagan religions at least 200 years before Jesus Christ appeared on earth. I also stated in my OP that there were pagan trinities in the 1st century AD--while Christ was on earth. In other words, you telling me that Polycarp, et al. promoted the trinity dogma prior to Constantine is a moot point.

Furthermore, Polycarp, et al. did not prove that trinity is in the Bible. Neither did Polycarp, et al. teach the trinity dogma that exists today. The dogma that exists today began with Constantine in the 4th century AD--more than 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene and returned to heavenly life.


gilbertc1908 said:
But the larger point is that while a literal translation of the Bible is a fundamentalist approach to Christianity it is not required by the larger majority of main stream Christians. Catholicism certainly does not teach a literal interpretation of the Bible so you leave out the majority of Christians and Christian denominations if the word Trinity, must appear in the Bible in order to be a central fact within the Christian faith. Certainly there are numerous references to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the interpretation of those persons is as old as Christianity itself and certainly a worthy conversation, but settled within Christian faith 2000 years ago.
Click to expand...

In the very first paragraph of my opening post, I made mention of the "majority of the Christians and Christian denominations" that believe in trinity. I simply gave the Catholic Church main billing, because they are the ones responsible for bringing the trinity dogma into their version of Christianity. The Protestants broke ranks with the Catholic Church during the Religious Reformation of the 16th century AD and took trinity and other Catholic doctrines with them. That's how we end up with trinity being in nearly every denomination within Christendom.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

gilbertc1908 said:
We are aware of the fact that no where in the Bible is the word Trinity applied. There are several things within Catholicism and Christianity that are not specifically mentioned in the Bible that are central teachings.
Click to expand...

ALTER2EGO -to- GILBERTC1908:

You are mistaken. There can only be a single central teaching within any philosophy--thus the use of the word "central." The other teachings might be considered important, but they cannot also be central.


DEFINITION OF CENTRAL:

Webster's New World College Dictionary

adjective

1. in, at, or near the center
2. of or forming the center
3. equally distant or accessible from various points
4. most important; main; basic; principal



Something that is "central" is considered vital. Why so? Because other beliefs rely on the central doctrine for justification of those other beliefs. When a central doctrine is exposed as false, the other unscriptural belief systems connected to it are likewise called into question.


Strangely, while trinity is the central doctrine in most of the 40,000 or so denominations within Christendom, the Judeo-Christian Bible is silent on the teaching of a 3-in-1 god.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Alter2Ego said:
QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of Trinity? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptural examples. Bold or colorize or italicize the words that you are focusing on within each of the quoted verses (don't bold/colorize/italicize the entire verse if you are not focusing on all of the words in the verse), and then explain why you have concluded that the bolded/colorized/italicized words are proof of trinity.


2. Why is it that trinity is found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance, as noted by two of the above examples, there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.


3. If the Trinity is a Bible teaching, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity?


4. How is it that the Trinity teaching did not become "Christian" teaching until the Christianized Romans (who later called themselves Roman Catholics) copied the philosophy from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?


5. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?
Click to expand...

1. I’m assuming you mean three Gods when you say trinity and not the actual trinity dogma developed by Roman Catholics. If so, yes there are scriptures that indicate three Gods in the Bible: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost/Spirit.
Isaiah 48:16
Isaiah 42:1
Genesis 1:26 –doesn’t mention three Gods, however, does say “let US make man in our image” perhaps implying plurality.
Matthew 28:19
Matthew 3:16
1 John 5:7

There are probably more.

2. The examples given actually had more than three Gods. For example:
List of Mesopotamian deities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of Egyptian deities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. Refer to the scriptures provided above. Most do mention three Gods.
Also, we don’t have a record of everything Jesus and his apostles taught.

4. You’re talking about a specific dogma that was developed based upon interpreting some scriptures in the Bible about the three Gods being one.
We have many interpretations of Bible passages, and many different translated versions of the Bible.

5. I don’t think they are in the Bible. Neither was the word Christian in the original Bible, nor is “the Golden Rule”, and many other words Christians use today in their religion.
Language changes over time.

By the way, I doubt you will see people agree with your claim that this is THE central teaching of Christians. If I had to choose one teaching alone that represents Christ’s teachings it is that we should love everyone.
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

The early church was built by converts from 2 main sources, Jews who believed in ONE GOD and pagans who believed in multiple gods.....
so they COMPROMISED.....but only after arguing about it for 300 years or so....
 
Re: Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?

Jehovah's Witnesses +1
Christendom -1
 
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